Speculation: Monahan forward most likely dealt first

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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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I feel like those graphs make the argument for you - the overalls are skewed but for my 3rd liner I want the guy whose better defensively and in transition over finishing talent any day.

I can't imagine looking at those graphs as a contender and wanting Monahan over Lindholm.
Precisely. In the playoffs, you need centers who can match up defensively and transport the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. We know Lindholm can do those things, and we know he can do those things while being a capable producer with the right support.

Lindholm's shooting percentage (6.5%) is also at about half of his career average. With career average shooting numbers he'd be at around 15 goals instead of 8.
 

Hunter368

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Precisely. In the playoffs, you need centers who can match up defensively and transport the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. We know Lindholm can do those things, and we know he can do those things while being a capable producer with the right support.

Lindholm's shooting percentage (6.5%) is also at about half of his career average. With career average shooting numbers he'd be at around 15 goals instead of 8.

I think most GM's, at least smart GM's look at the body work not a smaller sample size also.
 

iCanada

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Precisely. In the playoffs, you need centers who can match up defensively and transport the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. We know Lindholm can do those things, and we know he can do those things while being a capable producer with the right support.

Lindholm's shooting percentage (6.5%) is also at about half of his career average. With career average shooting numbers he'd be at around 15 goals instead of 8.

Exactly.

You want to be able to get it in deep in other teams zone and then make them struggle trying to get back into your zone.

The difference in production you would need to want the guy whose less mobile and worse defensively would need to be absolutely massive and it's just not. Particularly when 2 mil AAV retention on an expiring contract from a third party typically only costs around a 3rd.
 

EveryDay

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Monahan PPG is also better then Lindhlom and he's been on the ice for less GA in their career in playoff.

He's simply the best options for the playoffs between both option and Frank Seravalli was saying pretty much the same thing.

2 injury in his career and now he's made of glass, it's pretty funny.
 

The Great Weal

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Precisely. In the playoffs, you need centers who can match up defensively and transport the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone. We know Lindholm can do those things, and we know he can do those things while being a capable producer with the right support.

Lindholm's shooting percentage (6.5%) is also at about half of his career average. With career average shooting numbers he'd be at around 15 goals instead of 8.
The right support being 100pt linemates right? Anyways, I agree that Monahan's 5v5 production isn't good enough and that he's not good defensively. But to talk about Lindholm needing better support while disregarding the fact that Monahan has been playing with complete garbage in Gallagher/Evans/Anderson/Pearson for most of the time has a huge impact on his poor 5v5 production. He's got 5 ES points in the last 10 days when he had 11 ES points for the whole season before that and a large part of that is him playing with Roy.

I'm expecting a Nyquist in Detroit like return for Monahan, but you are being extremely disingenuous like always.
 
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iCanada

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Monahan PPG is also better then Lindhlom and he's been on the ice for less GA in their career in playoff.

He's simply the best options for the playoffs between both option and Frank Seravalli was saying pretty much the same thing.

2 injury in his career and now he's made of glass, it's pretty funny.

Monahan has been chronically injured his entire career. He plays through it usually, but often ineffectively.

Also he's literally been heavily injured for 4 of the last 5 years?

Are you really arguing that Monahan isn't injury prone?
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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The right support being 100pt linemates right?
He scored 64p in 80gp last year without a linemate like that.

Anyways, I agree that Monahan's 5v5 production isn't good enough and that he's not good defensively. But to talk about Lindholm needing better support while disregarding the fact that Monahan has been playing with complete garbage in Gallagher/Evans/Anderson/Pearson for most of the time has a huge impact on his poor 5v5 production. He's got 5 ES points in the last 10 days when he had 11 ES points for the whole season before that and a large part of that is him playing with Roy.

I'm expecting a Nyquist in Detroit like return for Monahan, but you are being extremely disingenuous like always.
How am I being disingenuous? Lindholm is very clearly the better center.
 

jfhabs

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He's just not a playoff guy. Some guys elevate. Some stay the same. Some get worse.

Largely the critics were that he was soft and lost puck battles at key times while getting beat head to head when it mattered most and often scoring meaningless points when the game was already decided.

It's also an injury risk thing - don't pretend no one watching can't see that he's taking practices off, and all of Habs Nation is terrified he gets injured before he gets traded. Everyone looking is terrified they trade for him and then he gets injured. He's made of glass.



I feel like those graphs make the argument for you - the overalls are skewed but for my 3rd liner I want the guy whose better defensively and in transition over finishing talent any day.

I can't imagine looking at those graphs as a contender and wanting Monahan over Lindholm.
I think he missed his first practice this year this week, but ok, we're talking about practice here.

Of course we'd rather him not get injured this year and get a return on him. We're a rebuilding team. I guess the injury argument will be either confirm or not based on doctors assessment, tot the number of practices he missed. Teams will have a much better insight than we do.

As far as him not being a playoff guy, so many guys are not playoff guys until they are. Is Lindholm a much better playoff guy? Timo Meier last year? Adam Henrique? If so, at what price?

It's not like there's a ton of better profile players available on the market to choose from.
 

EveryDay

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Monahan has been chronically injured his entire career. He plays through it usually, but often ineffectively.

Also he's literally been heavily injured for 4 of the last 5 years?

Are you really arguing that Monahan isn't injury prone?
Eavily? Please do explain how was he heavily injured if the guys was playing almost all the games of his team at the exception of 1 season(last year) to receive a surgery.

2019-2020 = 0
2020-2021 = 6
2021-2022 = 17
2022-2023 = Surgery ending season 57 games
2023-2024 = 0

So outside of 1 season where he needed a surgery he misses a total of 24 games in 4 seasons. I guess you can say he was heavily injured last year sure. but the other years? no
 
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GirardSpinorama

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Eavily? Please do explain how was he heavily injured if the guys was playing almost all the games of his team at the exception of 1 season(last year) to receive a surgery.

2019-2020 = 0
2020-2021 = 6
2021-2022 = 17
2022-2023 = Surgery ending season 57 games
2023-2024 = 0

So outside of 1 season where he needed a surgery he misses a total of 24 games in 4 seasons. I guess you can say he was heavily injured last year sure. but the other years? no

I think he said it, monahan plays ineffectively through injuries. You dont have to miss games to have injuries.
 
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iCanada

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Eavily? Please do explain how was he heavily injured if the guys was playing almost all the games of his team at the exception of 1 season(last year) to receive a surgery.

2019-2020 = 0
2020-2021 = 6
2021-2022 = 17
2022-2023 = Surgery ending season 57 games
2023-2024 = 0

So outside of 1 season where he needed a surgery he misses a total of 24 games in 4 seasons. I guess you can say he was heavily injured last year sure. but the other years? no

It's been heavily reported that he's been exceptionally injured in almost his entire career that's he's played through. Hip injuries, wrist injuries, etc.

Feel free to Google it, it's been widely talked about for years now, since atleast 2018.
 
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Hunter368

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It's been heavily reported that he's been exceptionally injured in almost his entire career that's he's played through. Hip injuries, wrist injuries, etc.

Feel free to Google it, it's been widely talked about for years now, since atleast 2018.

List of his known injuries April 2022:

 
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pth2

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Oh I think he could go for a conditional 1st. GMs love faceoff wins and he has a reputation as a two way C even if his defense has been mid this year. I just don't want it to be my team. I don't want this :laugh:
Frankly, I'm cool with people saying "sure he might be worth a 1st somewhere, I just don't see a fit on my team", it's when people need to devalue him that it gets frustrating.
 
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pth2

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List of his known injuries April 2022:

Then again, he just had a full summer of training for the first time in a while, and seems to be fine this year, even last season it was one specific injury and not the series of lingering issues it was in the past.

I'm not saying his injury issues aren't real, just that sometimes they seem overblown. They definitely justify some level of conditional deal, so if he is truly made of glass and breaks down before the playoffs, the acquiring team isn't out a prime asset. But the flip side then has to be that the conditional asset has to be of interest to go that route.
 
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EveryDay

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It's been heavily reported that he's been exceptionally injured in almost his entire career that's he's played through. Hip injuries, wrist injuries, etc.

Feel free to Google it, it's been widely talked about for years now, since atleast 2018.
It's probably true but the same thing apply to several hockey player honestly, did you look at Sasha Barkov injuries history? it's quite something.

Monahan have been playing great this year, he's been one of MTL best player 5 on 5 and if you look at his linemates for this season you couldn't believe he's got so many pts so far, it's just ugly. MTL team is bad, among the worst in the NHL but Monahan have been MTL best forward on this team probably around 50% on the games so far.

Does he get MTL a second 1st round pick at the deadline? who knows but one thing I know he's been playing his best hockey of the last 4 years.
 

pth2

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I assume the critics were in his last few years in CGY? Not when he was scoring 30+ on a regular basis?

Maybe expectations were the issue in CGY at the end because of what he was and how much he was making.

For a 2M$ player, he's fantastic.
I think a part of the issue was that he was a top-liner, so he was expected to be a leader and lead the team to victory. As a 2nd or 3d liner, likely only to get prime ice time (like PP1) in an injury relief role, the situation would be different.
 

John Mandalorian

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Yeah, it's Lindholm and then a bunch of other possible guys and then Monahan.

For teams that are looking to add a legit top 6 center, Lindholm is probably the only legitimate option. Guys like Cozens or Norris aren't likely to be moved because of their contracts. And it's pretty unlikely a team moves a younger C with RFA expiry at the TDL (e.g. Zegras, Mittlestadt, Pinto).

For teams looking to add a bottom 6C, I think Monahan is a pretty poor fit. Teams should be looking more towards guys like Backlund or Henrique as prime targets. Then there's guys like Sissons, Kuraly, Bjugstad, Sundqvist, Danforth etc that could become available. Maybe they'd even look at a guy like Gourde if they can get him with some retention. Lundestrom could an interesting option as well, and the Gauthier acquisition may make him more expendable, though I still question whether Anaheim would want to move on from him without significant overpayment.

Monahan would fall into the same category as Mikael Granlund IMO- a below average skater who can contribute offensively on poor teams when given top PP mins. But neither guy is really all that productive at 5v5, and their poor skating makes them defensive liabilities when played at center. I think most teams are savvy enough to understand this.

If I were a contender, I wouldn't even have Monahan as a top 5 TDL target among potentially available centers.

With some of those names, it depends on who is involved. It’s been reported that the Avs turned down Gauthier from Philly one for one. So it’s fair to wonder if the Avs might be open to swapping Byram for a 2C.
 

Kosseca

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Wow , so exciting
indeed. In all honesty all this debate is so stupid.
1- nobody here work in the front office of an NHL team, so there is no "insider" info here.
2- Monahan will be traded if a GM(s) want him. Nobody here can speak to the GMs "love" for Monahan and general perception they may have of him.
3- value is set base on: supply and demand + overall impact the player may have. Right now, there is a vague sense of the supply for C, but nothing concrete in terms of demand for Monahan and C in general. As for the impact of the players, this is even more debatable, as this will go back to point 2: general perception of the player. So based on this, his value is between the 1OV 2024 and future considerations.

it sad to see so many people become red in the face on something like this.
 

WhiskeyYerTheDevils

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Byram is not even getting you a 2nd line center....

He's a solid bottom pairing defenceman who's made of glass, he might get you a late 2nd round pick if he's healthy at the deadline.
He's 2nd in EV TOI per game on one of the best teams in the league....

Pretty sure any 22 year old with that sort of profile would fetch a ton in a trade.
 
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Hunter368

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Then again, he just had a full summer of training for the first time in a while, and seems to be fine this year, even last season it was one specific injury and not the series of lingering issues it was in the past.

I'm not saying his injury issues aren't real, just that sometimes they seem overblown. They definitely justify some level of conditional deal, so if he is truly made of glass and breaks down before the playoffs, the acquiring team isn't out a prime asset. But the flip side then has to be that the conditional asset has to be of interest to go that route.

I don't disagree with that and in fact said the same thing a few posts before. Of course that's only done if Monahan (healthy) fills a need, that is a big part of the debate on some teams.

Need/role/options?
Health?

Both will determine what a team is willing to offer.
 

Hunter368

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He is worth a 2nd rounder plus an okay prospect. Market could dictate otherwise (in either direction).

The constant bickering is ridiculous on here.

I don't see most of the posts as bickering, most posts are talking value, need, role and health which is all fair to debate. Those who were bickering/breaking the rules are no longer posting in this thread.

PS: I'm not saying anything about your estimate of his value.
 

Ianturnedbull

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But the Habs have already got one first round pick for Monahan. That is done.

Is it really that far fetched to think they could get another one for him at the TDL?

Despite what people in here think, there is a very real possibility someone could trade a first round pick for Monahan. Which means the Habs would have got 2 first round picks for Monahan.

It's not set in stone, but it's definitely possible.
Sure. If there is a bidding war for him. Otherwise 1sts for mid level centers? Ones that play 2nd or 3rd lines? I don't think they fetch a first.
 
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