Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Stephen]

I feel comfortable criticizing Marner all the time but by and large he chipped in with what he was supposed to in that 4-1 game. Missed the second goal which would have changed everything potentially but Willie deserves more heat for his dumb play last night. Don’t know if Matthews is sick or pulling the chute. And JT just being JT unreliable defensively and like squeezing blood from a stone offensively.

 

[nuck]

WN plays with JTs animated corpse ffs.

Elias Pettersson played with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev. Kaprizov plays mostly with Zuccarello and Rossi. Pasta's center is 40pt Zacha. If you are a game breaking forward you don't need other game breaking forwards to succeed and none of these other guys get Matthews with them on the pp. Willie really isn't that hard done by. Bert and JT work well with him, at least based on shots and he is the guy on the line that gets fed. Tavares is down maybe 6 or 8 goals from his typical pace so he is having a poor year but he isn't David Kampf

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/playerreport.php?fromseason=20232024&thruseason=20232024&stype=2&sit=5v5&stdoi=oi&rate=n&v=t&playerid=8477939

 

[MarMarSab3]

Toronto's grittiest teams in the 2000's had Sundin and Mogilny as their two best players, pretty similar personalities to Matthews and Marner except the latter two are just flat out better.

It all comes down to Tavares, he's slow, not great defensively, doesn't PK and has pretty much zero intangibles. When his contract is up our team is going to look a lot more complete especially if we keep adding the gritty types that Brad is adding.

What? Dud you watch Sundin play, he hit, he defended, he went to the dirty areas, he never walked away from a scrum, sorry man but Matthews and Marner couldn't hold Sundins jock strap

 

[Maple Leaf]

What? Dud you watch Sundin play, he hit, he defended, he went to the dirty areas, he never walked away from a scrum, sorry man but Matthews and Marner couldn't hold Sundins jock strap

That is why you need to swap the core you know Huberdae for Tkachuck style

 

[notDatsyuk]

It's amazing that you guys need this stuff explained to you. M&M almost always play against the opponents top lines. They play against the best and also play with Knives and his 26 points. Nylander and JT etc get sheltered by that and play against weaker opponents.

I won't use advanced stats as that will just confuse you.

Marner at 5v5 has been on the ice for 52 goals for and 32 goals against. This is the best on the team.
Nylander at 5v5 has been on the ice for 43 goals for and 47 goals against. This is 23rd on the team.

It has been shown that quality of teammates is far more important than quality of opponents.

For starters, the "always play against the opponents top lines" isn't true at all. Coaching styles, home last change, changing on the fly, and even the simple fact that there are four lines and only three pairs of defencemen, all contribute to disproving the myth of quality of opponents.

 

[Smif]

What? Dud you watch Sundin play, he hit, he defended, he went to the dirty areas, he never walked away from a scrum, sorry man but Matthews and Marner couldn't hold Sundins jock strap

Matthews hits, defends, him and Sundin stylistically are quite similar.

 

[Antropovsky]

That is why you need to swap the core you know Huberdae for Tkachuck style

When he was available from Calgary... I suggested Marner for Tkachuk. I was given lols...by a select bunch of Marner fans.

 

[666]

It has been shown that quality of teammates is far more important than quality of opponents.

That's why I mentioned Knives and his 26 points. He's fine but he's not even a top 6 at this point in his career.

For starters, the "always play against the opponents top lines" isn't true at all. Coaching styles, home last change, changing on the fly, and even the simple fact that there are four lines and only three pairs of defencemen, all contribute to disproving the myth of quality of opponents.

All of those things that you mention are also used to match up M&M against the best opponents, all you have to do is watch the games particularly both of the recent Boston games.

C'mon man, if you were an opposing team who do try to shut down?

We're drifting from the point. People here are suggesting that we should trade Marner and keep Nylander because "he's the top scorer on the team". Anyone who watches the games should know that Nylander is a defensive trainwreck and Marner is the one you keep.

 

[MarMarSab3]

Matthews hits, defends, him and Sundin stylistically are quite similar.

That is so far from true, Sundin was and is my favorite Leaf of all time watched him closely from his world junior days and even through Quebec, have always been a fan of his and he is nothing like Matthews other then size.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That is so far from true, Sundin was and is my favorite Leaf of all time watched him closely from his world junior days and even through Quebec, have always been a fan of his and he is nothing like Matthews other then size.

The fact that he was your favourite Leaf is probably the issue here. You're looking at one through a time-smoothed nostalgic lens, and the other through an in-the-moment critical lens. Sundin is probably my favourite Leaf ever too, but Matthews and Marner are easily better players.

 

[MarMarSab3]

The fact that he was your favourite Leaf is probably the issue here. You're looking at one through a time-smoothed nostalgic lens, and the other through an in-the-moment critical lens. Sundin is probably my favourite Leaf ever too, but Matthews and Marner are easily better players.

They are more skilled absolutely.

 

[GoonieFace]

They are more skilled absolutely.

These guys can’t handle the physicality in the softest era of hockey, imagine them playing in the clutch and grab era. Shambles

 

[MarMarSab3]

These guys can’t handle the physicality in the softest era of hockey, imagine them playing in the clutch and grab era. Shambles

100%

Which is why it annoys me that Sundin doesn't get the love he deserves, the guy played with scrubs almost his entire career and was dominant.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's amazing that you guys need this stuff explained to you. M&M almost always play against the opponents top lines. They play against the best and also play with Knives and his 26 points. Nylander and JT etc get sheltered by that and play against weaker opponents.

I won't use advanced stats as that will just confuse you.

Marner at 5v5 has been on the ice for 52 goals for and 32 goals against. This is the best on the team.
Nylander at 5v5 has been on the ice for 43 goals for and 47 goals against. This is 23rd on the team.

Top lines play against top lines, this isn't news and it's the same for every team. I suggest you take a look at the other teams around the league and look at who the leading scorers are. Do they play on their teams top line, or are they "sheltered"? It sounds like you're in for a surprise when you discover the shocking news - top line players are almost always the ones leading the team in scoring, despite playing against other top lines.

And there's no need to be angry, this isn't a shot at Marner who I've already said is great for 86 games a year, it's just a testament to the year Willie is having. A 2nd line player leading his team in scoring is a rare thing, especially when the top line has a player having one of the greatest goal scoring seasons of all time.

 

[Roo]

A strong player that forgets the right way to play at times. You can coach this, his talent is undeniable. You need to negotiate the best deal you can with him, but letting him walk likely isn't in the cards. The anchor is Tavares and everyone knows it.

 

[666]

Top lines play against top lines, this isn't news and it's the same for every team. I suggest you take a look at the other teams around the league and look at who the leading scorers are. Do they play on their teams top line, or are they "sheltered"? It sounds like you're in for a surprise when you discover the shocking news - top line players are almost always the ones leading the team in scoring, despite playing against other top lines.

And there's no need to be angry, this isn't a shot at Marner who I've already said is great for 86 games a year, it's just a testament to the year Willie is having. A 2nd line player leading his team in scoring is a rare thing, especially when the top line has a player having one of the greatest goal scoring seasons of all time.

The lack of critical thinking of some people around here is astounding.

Why would you ignore the simple stats I provide for you? Nylander is the top scorer on a top scoring team and he's a MINUS player. Think man. Nylander is a lazy, defensive trainwreck and this is the guy that you are suggesting to keep while trading away Marner. Do you understand ANYTHING about defence? Amazing irrational thinking.

 

[HellasLEAF]

A strong player that forgets the right way to play at times. You can coach this, his talent is undeniable. You need to negotiate the best deal you can with him, but letting him walk likely isn't in the cards. The anchor is Tavares and everyone knows it.

Agreed. I would say we caved to his demands last time (partly due to needless animosity brought on from the FOOLISH Don Lou).

Cannot cave this time. Cannot. Let him sit out like Willy did right up until the deadline if he wants to stay a Leaf he can prove it.

 

[authentic]

5vs5 stats (2023 + 2024 season)
1200 Mins together
715 Mins apart

FF% together: 55.8
Marner ff% without Matthews: 48.22
Matthews without Marner: 53.37

Xg together: 56.76
Marner xgf without Matthews: 48.38
Matthews xgf without Marner: 55.89

So when Marner isn't on Matthews line, then his line is generally outclassed by his opponents line. However, Matthews stats remain dominant with or without Marner?

Yet Marner is this Teams best player? It's pretty clear whose riding whose coat tails here.

Not only that but Matthews played as a shell of himself with a wrist injury the entire past season, it has always baffled me how people think Marner is the better player. Like this season now that Matthews is healthy again he has more goals than Marner has assists, there should be no debate about it.

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed. I would say we caved to his demands last time (partly due to needless animosity brought on from the FOOLISH Don Lou).

Cannot cave this time. Cannot. Let him sit out like Willy did right up until the deadline if he wants to stay a Leaf he can prove it.

The biggest mistake there was signing Matthews first.

 

[Roo]

Agreed. I would say we caved to his demands last time (partly due to needless animosity brought on from the FOOLISH Don Lou).

Cannot cave this time. Cannot. Let him sit out like Willy did right up until the deadline if he wants to stay a Leaf he can prove it.

Letting him sit is what Dubas should have had the balls to do when he was an RFA. We don’t have that kind of leverage this time, he is a pending UFA and will just sign with another team. You just need to negotiate the best deal you can. He wants to be here, it’s home. He will command a big ticket, but Nylander is putting up a season that even Marner hasn’t and this should be his ceiling on a new deal.

 

[ACC1224]

Letting him sit is what Dubas should have had the balls to do when he was an RFA. We don’t have that kind of leverage this time, he is a pending UFA and will just sign with another team. You just need to negotiate the best deal you can. He wants to be here, it’s home. He will command a big ticket, but Nylander is putting up a season that even Marner hasn’t and this should be his ceiling on a new deal.

I wouldn't be surprised if he signs this summer at a modest increase.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The lack of critical thinking of some people around here is astounding.

Why would you ignore the simple stats I provide for you? Nylander is the top scorer on a top scoring team and he's a MINUS player. Think man. Nylander is a lazy, defensive trainwreck and this is the guy that you are suggesting to keep while trading away Marner. Do you understand ANYTHING about defence? Amazing irrational thinking.

I already said that Marner is better defensively and it's not close. Did you miss that? That doesn't change the fact that Nylander this season has been incredible on offence.

 

[Nineteen67]

Even considering everything Marner has done to date, it still feels like the next two months is the most important stretch of his career. How he performs will have an impact on the decisions that both he and the front office make.

 

[666]

I already said that Marner is better defensively and it's not close. Did you miss that? That doesn't change the fact that Nylander this season has been incredible on offence.

Great.

If it was me, I'd do a massive reset. Trade all our expiring deals if I can, keep Matthews, Nylander, Rielly and our youth/prospects, tell Marner that he either takes the exact same deal as Willy and when he says no to that, convince him to waive his NMC because he won't be here past next year. Restock the prospect pool and rebuild the D with an eye to rising once again when the JT deal is up.

Two simple yes or no questions, no explanations requested or required and we'll be done for now.

Does Marner have more value that Nylander?

Would you rather have Marner or Nylander on this team for the next decade.

Obviously I say yes to both.

 

[authentic]

What? Dud you watch Sundin play, he hit, he defended, he went to the dirty areas, he never walked away from a scrum, sorry man but Matthews and Marner couldn't hold Sundins jock strap

Sundin hit? Matthews is a better hitter and defender than Sundin was and way better offensively.