Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Gabriel426]

The Panther series the collective wasn't ready, for whatever reason we came out flat as a board and it was really over pretty quick. Matthews for me was even more disappointing than series, yet that isn't a regular topic like this thread. That aside, Marner was bad that series, but as you said the TB series he was effective , and he was their entire shutdown focus.

He is maturing, that's why I'm still optimistic. Like Matthews this year, seeing some mental evolution, which makes this regular season somewhat instructive. Nylander too for that matter. Look at Reilly, it finally clicked last playoffs, and let's see review his age.

For me, any poster here who argues Marner is riding Matthews coat tails, that's a tell, they're truly irrelevant to an intellectual discussion, they're just biased haters who offer nothing or anything. Coaches, players, analysts, they get it, what does it really matter if a nobody doesn't? Marner and Matthews are a symbiotic relationship, imagine the absurdity of arguing Oates was nothing more than Hull.

Again, criticize all you want, just don't expect me to respect ZERO GAME garbage.

To me the Panthers Series showed the guys were just too excited to even make it past the first round. They probably would had shown more if they played Bruins also starting the series away. Bc the whole team was just too excited and wanted to get the crowds buzzing and cheering in Game 1. As they were hunting for BIG hits to get pops. They should had won in Game 2, they were just dominating but do have to give Panthers credit for not giving up and having the mentality of going back to Florida with series tied at 1-1.

Something went un-notice in last night game was after Bert scored on the first PP. MM gently nodded with AM on the bench, kind of like him saying, lets get Bert going. Thats really good to see

 

[Notsince67]

I think he is maturing and heading that direction.
The Panthers series aside. I know some will say he was underwhelmed against TB but I said it then and I will say it now, I thought he just picked his moments, let the game come to him and was clutch when given the opportunity.
Also I find he didn’t force and tried to do fancy stuff like past years when he was not putting up points. He really kept his game simple and let the game comes to him this season.
Lastly, I don’t understand how anyone can say he is not a part of AM’s success bc if your line mate is getting 70goals, you are doing something right even if you are not getting the points.
At the same time, MM like all players will have bad games, when he does, people should stop defending him like a cult. Just admit he had a bad game or two and move on.

So for argument sakes, which particular game do you have in mind where he played poorly and people defended him. I'm seeing a pretty good winning streak here so it can't be something recent but it must be something that really sticks out in your mind seeing you are making a point about it.

 

[Gabriel426]

So for argument sakes, which particular game do you have in mind where he played poorly and people defended him. I'm seeing a pretty good winning streak here so it can't be something recent but it must be something that really sticks out in your mind seeing you are making a point about it.

This season. Nothing sticks out, just in general whenever he had an off game. Which happens to every players.

No need to keep going back to playoffs games. As we all know which ones.

 

[Jojalu]

You can say whatever you want, we all have opinions, which is why I find it so easy to dismiss psychological defects wrapped around supposed hockey arguments. It's so obvious what most of this stuff really is, Marner is just a lightning rod.

There are a lot of guys who make legit critiques about Marner, even if I don't agree, I respect the arguments. The guys who literally have made the same playoff posts 18347 times because they can't offer anything else, you're a joke, the bottom of the barrel social media participants in my view. Everyone knows we need more in key games, from Marner, Matthews and supporting cast, that isn't an insight at this point, it's a given, so bringing it up everyday during regular season games is just so boring intellectually. But, again, there are defects which prevent this simple assumption, it must be said over and over as though informative. Literally why we have bell curves.

Marner has been an absolute treat to watch, if he can find a way to bring this game at the crucial moments, he can carry this team to the promised land. I for one will remain optimistic he can until he doesn't. Each year provides this opportunity and his play of late is encouraging. Last night for example was tight, tough, playoff style hockey, and he shone like a star.

The Florida series was bad, at least it felt horrible.

Yet when I look back, they lost 2 games in OT, another in regulation by 1.

That 5-8% would have been huge in that series.

Or having a secondary piece like Bertuzzi go off for 10 points.

 

[DarkKnight]

The Florida series was bad, at least it felt horrible.

Yet when I look back, they lost 2 games in OT, another in regulation by 1.

That 5-8% would have been huge in that series.

Or having a secondary piece like Bertuzzi go off for 10 points.

We weren't ready for it, clearly still in the TB afterglow. Let's hope it's a lesson learned.

 

[thewave]

We weren't ready for it, clearly still in the TB afterglow. Let's hope it's a lesson learned.

Stars not pulling was equal too if not overshadowed by Keefe's failure.

 

[ULF_55]

Evaluating an argument...whether its premises are true and whether their truth necessarily results in a true conclusion is where a sane debate begins.
Circular reasoning beginning with the premise that Matthews is a 70 goal scorer and ends with assessing how many assists he is giving people the opportunity to have is a false premise. Should I accept the premise, I could conclude that since Matthews was a only a 40 goal scorer last year, Marner was prevented at achieving 23 more assists, giving him 122 points for the year. If I threw that one out, there wouldn't be a shortage of people calling me a fan boy...and rightfully so. So the premise is flawed in an attempt to frame a conclusion that by all appearances are framed by the opposite of a fan boy. A hater.

Too complicated.

Why not just look at the facts from Matthews 60 goal campaign?

How many assists did marner get from those 60 goals?

I have no idea, but at least everyone can deal with facts without agenda.

Right?

 

[leafs in five]

I just fing love it when he scores a goal on a wrister from near the blueline because of the number of times I have read on here that you can't score goals on wristers from near the blueline

 

[thusk]

I was thinking the very same thing... He could have taken a wrist shot 30' closer... But instead turned his back to the net, skated back to the blueline...ran our of room and sent a wrister to the net lol. This is exactly what he does in the playoffs and what kills us. The opponent will love that route any day of the week.

how your score on playoff is exactly tgat way...creating yourself a shooting lane with traffic in front of the net.

if you shoot from distance with no screen, whatever if youre are 5 feet closer or from a closer angle, most if the time it will be am easy save but with traffic every shot brcome difficult.

he created himself a shooting lane. he wait until knies goes exactly at the right spot to screen with chance to deflevt the puck and be 1st on rebound.

Rantanen scored the same way to tie it

Hronek in canuck vs boston game scored the tying goal the same exact way.

rielly goal vs tampa last year was exactly the same way.

most of the time in playoff, goal are not high real goal but simple play like that. Sometime its exactly kind of problem leafs had in playoff, they start to try the perfect play especially in pp and struggling to score.

 

[DarkKnight]

HockeyNews star of the week

https://thehockeynews.com/news/nhl-three-stars-leafs-marner-wilds-kaprizov-and-rangers-shesterkin-turn-up-the-heat

 

[Antropovsky]

how your score on playoff is exactly tgat way...creating yourself a shooting lane with traffic in front of the net.

if you shoot from distance with no screen, whatever if youre are 5 feet closer or from a closer angle, most if the time it will be am easy save but with traffic every shot brcome difficult.

he created himself a shooting lane. he wait until knies goes exactly at the right spot to screen with chance to deflevt the puck and be 1st on rebound.

Rantanen scored the same way to tie it

Hronek in canuck vs boston game scored the tying goal the same exact way.

rielly goal vs tampa last year was exactly the same way.

most of the time in playoff, goal are not high real goal but simple play like that. Sometime its exactly kind of problem leafs had in playoff, they start to try the perfect play especially in pp and struggling to score.

First, I appreciate posters recently using data or recollection of plays to support their opinions. It's much better than the typical "OMG Haha". Hopefully we can encourage each other to continue these types of discussions and discourage the pointless and immature "Haha...omg you stupid," etc.

To respond to your message:

1) I've always said that I like point shots with screens and that I think the Leafs should do it more.

2) Rantanen's point shot; he didn't move. He stood stationary until the screen happened.

3) What I didn't like was Marner attacking the middle, not shooting, then turning his back to the net and skating towards the blue line. Marner doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. We've seen it all too often that these plays are risky and lead to odd man rushes against. This is not the safe play.

In playoffs, historically these plays have destroyed us. Last year, Trotz even talked about how this was a problem with our core in the playoffs. Sure this play worked, but it was a low percentage play, and in the playoffs, these are the plays that oppositions prey on for odd man rushes. Playoffs are a game of inches and it's critical to minimize risk. Marner is the biggest offender of this too... See his:

1) Delay of play penalty vs Montreal leading to their gwg
2) His game 6 over time hail mary flip giveaway leading to Tampas gwg
3) His game 7 giveaway vs Montreal where he tried to deke at the blueline instead of dumping it, leading to Montreals first goal (pretty much their gwg).

I'm leaving out some too. I know he had another delay of game penalty that led to a goal too.

3) Finally I've noted this several times in the past and during playoffs. Majority of Marners goals in the playoffs were from the Goalie being heavily screened by teammates. But why is Marner never doing the same for his teammates? He's always standing off to the side of the goalie, wanting a pass and never standing directly in front of the goalies eyes.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I thought early Colorado game, he was kind of going back to that carelessness with the puck but that was most of the team.

He and the team got better in the 2nd & 3rd.

He's having a good year, slow start but looking good lately.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I just fing love it when he scores a goal on a wrister from near the blueline because of the number of times I have read on here that you can't score goals on wristers from near the blueline

He has such great edgework and is able to walk the line and open up shooting lanes. Draws opponents to him to open up space in the middle, and then either makes a tape to tape pass for a tip/deflection, or gets a well-placed shot through a screened goalie.

People on here: His average shot distance raised by 2%! He sucks!

 

[thusk]

First, I appreciate posters recently using data or recollection of plays to support their opinions. It's much better than the typical "OMG Haha". Hopefully we can encourage each other to continue these types of discussions and discourage the pointless and immature "Haha...omg you stupid," etc.

To respond to your message:

1) I've always said that I like point shots with screens and that I think the Leafs should do it more.

2) Rantanen's point shot; he didn't move. He stood stationary until the screen happened.

3) What I didn't like was Marner attacking the middle, not shooting, then turning his back to the net and skating towards the blue line. Marner doesn't have eyes in the back of his head. We've seen it all too often that these plays are risky and lead to odd man rushes against. This is not the safe play.

In playoffs, historically these plays have destroyed us. Last year, Trotz even talked about how this was a problem with our core in the playoffs. Sure this play worked, but it was a low percentage play, and in the playoffs, these are the plays that oppositions prey on for odd man rushes. Playoffs are a game of inches and it's critical to minimize risk. Marner is the biggest offender of this too... See his:

1) Delay of play penalty vs Montreal leading to their gwg
2) His game 6 over time hail mary flip giveaway leading to Tampas gwg
3) His game 7 giveaway vs Montreal where he tried to deke at the blueline instead of dumping it, leading to Montreals first goal (pretty much their gwg).

I'm leaving out some too. I know he had another delay of game penalty that led to a goal too.

3) Finally I've noted this several times in the past and during playoffs. Majority of Marners goals in the playoffs were from the Goalie being heavily screened by teammates. But why is Marner never doing the same for his teammates? He's always standing off to the side of the goalie, wanting a pass and never standing directly in front of the goalies eyes.

1)before he skate back with puck, he was able to see all five avs player in front of him. so contrairly to what you said, it wasn't risky at all.

2)and its easy to take all mistake player doing, you can take every player you want whatever who he is and you will be able to do the same exact thing. sure when youre playing over 24 min/ game, you will finish to make mistake

3) matthews goal gm 6 who was the screen? i understand hes not the guy who will do it the most but its not his strenght. The same way i watched a lot kane and he didn't screen more than marner because its not how you will get best of him. They're #1 ability is their agility and high Hockey IQ. The same way you will not expect from tavares or knies to see them carrying the puck and creating play with their skating. you will expect from them to be in front of the net because that where they will help you the most.

Marner had been at his best when he played a simple game, just working hard and keep it single. When he started struggling was when he started to pass it too much to matthews all game long and becoming predictable.

 

[ULF_55]

I just fing love it when he scores a goal on a wrister from near the blueline because of the number of times I have read on here that you can't score goals on wristers from near the blueline

Funny, over the past couple of days I think I've seen about 4 floaters from the blueline go in.

It's about about the screen.

 

[Gary Nylund]

how your score on playoff is exactly tgat way...creating yourself a shooting lane with traffic in front of the net.

if you shoot from distance with no screen, whatever if youre are 5 feet closer or from a closer angle, most if the time it will be am easy save but with traffic every shot brcome difficult.

he created himself a shooting lane. he wait until knies goes exactly at the right spot to screen with chance to deflevt the puck and be 1st on rebound.

Rantanen scored the same way to tie it

Hronek in canuck vs boston game scored the tying goal the same exact way.

rielly goal vs tampa last year was exactly the same way.

most of the time in playoff, goal are not high real goal but simple play like that. Sometime its exactly kind of problem leafs had in playoff, they start to try the perfect play especially in pp and struggling to score.

Agree completely. Marner's playing great as of late, that was a nice goal he scored and I give him full credit for it. I just hope Keefe doesn't start doing stupid thinkgs like playing him for 26 minutes or whatever every now and then, we need to make sure Marner is well rested and put in the best position to succeed in the playoffs. A year from now, nobody's going to remember that goal from last night, what I'm hoping for is for Marner to break out in the playoffs, and help us go deep and if that happens, there will surely be a goal or two along the way that he either scores or sets up that will be remembered for a long time to come. Here's hoping.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I just fing love it when he scores a goal on a wrister from near the blueline because of the number of times I have read on here that you can't score goals on wristers from near the blueline

I mean, it is literally impossible with today's super goalies!

 

[therealkoho]

Since this thread was started
GP-22 G-9 A-25 P-34 +19

Good anti-jynx thread.

Yeah well he should be +28 and he would be except for all those goals against that were all his fault

Or sumpin along those lines

 

[therealkoho]

This season. Nothing sticks out, just in general whenever he had an off game. Which happens to every players.

No need to keep going back to playoffs games. As we all know which ones.

Every failure of the last 50 yrs gets heaped on the most recent team failure, and for some reason Mitch has become the lightning rod for all the frustration which is always ready to boil over.

If the team loses than the loss is on THE TEAM because this is a TEAM GAME. Marner isn't the only guy out there that wasnt producing in those games, but over those 50 or so games over all those playoff series losses, Marner leads the Leafs in scoring. Somehow though it has become Marners fault.

 

[Gabriel426]

Every failure of the last 50 yrs gets heaped on the most recent team failure, and for some reason Mitch has become the lightning rod for all the frustration which is always ready to boil over.

If the team loses than the loss is on THE TEAM because this is a TEAM GAME. Marner isn't the only guy out there that wasnt producing in those games, but over those 50 or so games over all those playoff series losses, Marner leads the Leafs in scoring. Somehow though it has become Marners fault.

I never said it was solely on Marner but I do acknowledge that some do, which is unfair. As I stated times after times, Reilly is the only one that can escape criticisms from playoffs past.
When AM, MM and JT combined for 1 of the 10 goals scored in a series, thats horrible nomatter how many shots, or HD chances or whatever fancy stats you put out that supported they played well.
I think part of the reason why some feels MM is being attacked more is mainly bc there are just those who will defend MM to no ends. When people justly or unjustly pointed out something, it gets escalated pretty quickly.

For example, I find it hilarious that someone here will break down each MM points to show he doesn't deserve it, and at the same token someone else will point to how MM dominated in his draft +1 season at the OHL as prove that he is a clutch player.
I understand both sides but give it a rest bc we all know MM, he got great talents, one of the top players in the league. Like all greats, he will have bad games and great games, there will be points where it seems like he did very little-like the assist he got from McMann open net goal against the Blues or assist that deserves more than the goal-like the pass to Bert's first goal last game.
At the end of the day, he is a Leafs and if Leafs players do well, it usually means Leafs wins.

I think his game really matures and if he can continue to get better, he will play a big part of Leafs winning the Cup.

 

[Notsince67]

We are are Leaf fans here, the banter is great. If we all agreed on everything, it would suck.

Disagree

 

[leafs in five]

But why is Marner never doing the same for his teammates? He's always standing off to the side of the goalie, wanting a pass and never standing directly in front of the goalies eyes.

because he is the one running the show

 

[Gary Nylund]

Then after the round one win you created the eating crow thread where all of Marner's sins and everyone else's were forgiven and exactly THREE games later you went right back to hating and you're still hating. You will always be a hater and that's the issue.

That was directed at people who said this team could never possibly win a playoff round, which was obviously an absurd notion. I always try to stay objective and when the team or specific players play well, I will praise them and at the same time, if they suck THREE games later, I'm not going to pretend that they didn't suck. I'll always cheer for the team no matter what, but once the game is over, like I said I try to be objective, I call a spade a spade and I will not smear lipstick on a pig. If you can't handle the truth, that's your problem.

As far as me "always being a hater", that's just an unintelligent thing to say, and also pretty weird. Your obsession with me is unhealthy. I on the other hand have no problem with you and I wish you nothing but the best. I hope you have a wonderful day!

I never said it was solely on Marner but I do acknowledge that some do, which is unfair. As I stated times after times, Reilly is the only one that can escape criticisms from playoffs past.
When AM, MM and JT combined for 1 of the 10 goals scored in a series, thats horrible nomatter how many shots, or HD chances or whatever fancy stats you put out that supported they played well.
I think part of the reason why some feels MM is being attacked more is mainly bc there are just those who will defend MM to no ends. When people justly or unjustly pointed out something, it gets escalated pretty quickly.

For example, I find it hilarious that someone here will break down each MM points to show he doesn't deserve it, and at the same token someone else will point to how MM dominated in his draft +1 season at the OHL as prove that he is a clutch player.
I understand both sides but give it a rest bc we all know MM, he got great talents, one of the top players in the league. Like all greats, he will have bad games and great games, there will be points where it seems like he did very little-like the assist he got from McMann open net goal against the Blues or assist that deserves more than the goal-like the pass to Bert's first goal last game.
At the end of the day, he is a Leafs and if Leafs players do well, it usually means Leafs wins.

I think his game really matures and if he can continue to get better, he will play a big part of Leafs winning the Cup.

Has anyone actually said that? I've only seen that thrown out as a straw man argument but I've never seen anyone say it.

I think part of the reason Marner seems to get more grief than perhaps anyone else on the team is that his struggles mirror the team's struggles - good until clutch time, then falls apart and he's therefore the poster boy for the team. He also comes across as unlikeable because he's just so bad at addressing the media and when he makes comments like "we don't care what anyone thinks", that doesn't really play well. Bottom line is I think if you constantly behave in an unlikeable fashion, people aren't going to like you, it's that simple. For me, none of that matters, it's not a question of like or don't like, I don't know the guy, I never will know the guy, to me he's just a hockey player who's great for 86 games a year and then, falls off a cliff. If he can get over that hump and keep going until the end, I'll be a big fan again and I think that's the case for almost everyone. It's a what have you done for me lately world and to get people on his side again, all he has to do is win. And you win and lose as team so of course it's not all on him, but with his cap his he sure as shit has to do his part.

those ads for Canada's sportsbook that are like Americans don't know shit about hockey so why bet with an American sportsbook are so weird, like of course I would rather bet against a party that purportedly knows less than me

I think exactly the same thing every time I see those ads. Of course I know nothing about marketing so maybe those ads are effective, I really have no idea. They sure are stupid though. "Why would you bet with someone who doesn't know hockey" - dumbest question ever.

because he is the one running the show

Yeah everyone needs to do what they're good at. I don't want Marner standing in front of the net, just like I don't want Kampf running the PP. Why would anyone want our players to do what they're not good at?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Every failure of the last 50 yrs gets heaped on the most recent team failure, and for some reason Mitch has become the lightning rod for all the frustration which is always ready to boil over.

If the team loses than the loss is on THE TEAM because this is a TEAM GAME. Marner isn't the only guy out there that wasnt producing in those games, but over those 50 or so games over all those playoff series losses, Marner leads the Leafs in scoring. Somehow though it has become Marners fault.

I haven't seen one single post saying the team's failures are Marner's fault. It's partly on him but partly on many other people and you win and lose as a team, that's obvious. I've never seen one person say it's all his fault. I see that straw man argument all the time though and as the saying goes, it's weak sauce.

 

[darrylsittler27]

It all really comes down to this year's playoffs. Something has to give.