Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Gary Nylund]

No one has said you can’t talk about the playoffs, but bringing it up at every single turn as a “yeah but” is unnecessary and as the poster you said, not sure what players playing regular season games now are supposed to do to change the playoff narrative around them

That's not what I do but if that's the way you see it for whatever reason, feel free to put me ignore if my posts are impacting your ability to enjoy life.

A year ago I was talking about the playoffs just as much as I am now, but I was predicting Marner would kill it instead of fading away as he usually does. Funny how nobody was complaining then but again, if you are bothered by people discussing facts when those facts are negative, put those people on ignore, create a nice echo chamber for yourself where you can be happy.

 

[ULF_55]

Everybody knows he hasn't played well in the playoffs. I think the point is he can't change that narrative right now so why not just enjoy how he's playing currently? They'll be plenty of time to pick him apart if he doesn't perform well in April and beyond.

They need more than 2 lines that can score in the playoffs.
When we review the playoffs, it's always Matthews, Nylander scoring and marner and Rielly assisting.

The top of the production is always:
Matthews
marner
Nylander
Tavares/Rielly

Always the same 5.

Need a third line ... maybe that is the one with Tavares and wingers?

 

[Arzak]

10 goals (1PPG) in 50 playoff games.

Mitch is on fire now, but if I am a Marnerette I'd wait until April to throw stones and talk about Paul's sperm. It is not like we have not seen how this movie ends.

^^
We are in "Fast and Furious 9" territory now. Yet some are wondering about the end of this movie..

On a side note, I'm enjoying Matthews being on fire.

@Notsince67 As someone who works in "data science" , what are the odds of anyone(let's say winger) playing 25min a game with 70goal scorer center having 50 point season ?

 

[BraveCanadian]

All of the leafs top players need to be much better in the playoffs, but this weird Marner fixation on games 5-7 is just plain illogical for a few reasons.

First, because there are no games 5-7 if you don’t win some in games 1-4.

Second, because the leafs have collectively done poorly in the playoffs and have generally lost series, the expectation would be that a lot of their numbers aren’t great in those deciding games.

Third- sample size.

That all being said, Marner (and the others) can and have to be much better.

 

[thewave]

10 goals (1PPG) in 50 playoff games.

Mitch is on fire now, but if I am a Marnerette I'd wait until April to throw stones and talk about Paul's sperm. It is not like we have not seen how this movie ends.

A lot of people ignore things that even coaches mention. "The kind of players you win with" or "High stakes performers" or "Clutch players".

When it comes down to it, Marner has not come through in the clutch. Obviously that isn't to say he isn't a great player or that he isn't entertaining or likable. The debate whether he is overpaid is spirited and reasonable for the most part as well. My personal issue and likely yours and people that see it the way I think we both do is that we are now essentially being attacked based on the fact we are providing facts to take a position that casts a negative light on Marner.

What's lost is a basic coaches question... Is Mitch Marner a clutch player or not?

All of the leafs top players need to be much better in the playoffs, but this weird Marner fixation on games 5-7 is just plain illogical for a few reasons.

First, because there are no games 5-7 if you don’t win some in games 1-4.

Second, because the leafs have collectively done poorly in the playoffs and have generally lost series, the expectation would be that a lot of their numbers aren’t great in those deciding games.

Third- sample size.

That all being said, Marner (and the others) can and have to be much better.

How is focus on the 3 most important game in any series illogical? Thats like saying focusing on scoring a winning goal in overtime is illogical.

You feel me?

 

[BraveCanadian]

A lot of people ignore things that even coaches mention. "The kind of players you win with" or "High stakes performers" or "Clutch players".

When it comes down to it, Marner has not come through in the clutch. Obviously that isn't to say he isn't a great player or that he isn't entertaining or likable. The debate whether he is overpaid is spirited and reasonable for the most part as well. My personal issue and likely yours and people that see it the way I think we both do is that we are now essentially being attacked based on the fact we are providing facts to take a position that casts a negative light on Marner.

What's lost is a basic coaches question... Is Mitch Marner a clutch player or not?



How is focus on the 3 most important game in any series illogical? Thats like saying focusing on scoring a winning goal in overtime is illogical.

You feel me?

Yes yes the old clutch narrative that no one seems to have it until they win and then - magically - they had it all along!

See: Wayne Gretzky, Steve Yzerman, Stamkos, Ovechkin for recent examples.

 

[Gary Nylund]

All of the leafs top players need to be much better in the playoffs, but this weird Marner fixation on games 5-7 is just plain illogical for a few reasons.

First, because there are no games 5-7 if you don’t win some in games 1-4.

Second, because the leafs have collectively done poorly in the playoffs and have generally lost series, the expectation would be that a lot of their numbers aren’t great in those deciding games.

Third- sample size.

That all being said, Marner (and the others) can and have to be much better.

Except the numbers don't drop off collectively. Marner drops off a cliff, while Nylander just keeps on truckin'. Rielly was also excellent so no, I don't think all our top players are the problem, but Marner (and Matthews) need to be better, JT as well.

On one hand, it's a small sample size but on the other hand, this has been happening for many years so not sure how small it is anymore. It's not just games 5-7 either, it's that he seems to be burned out after the first 4 games. Not that that changes things that much, but adding the entirety of the Florida series does make the sample size bigger.

If Marner can keep playing strong for the entire playoffs this spring the way Nylander seems to be able to do, I'll be very happy. But if he fades away again, I wouldn't commit 12-13 million of our cap space to a guy that's an regular season all-star, but probably isn't going to help you win the cup. If others disagree, that's fine, to each his own.

You mention the team doing poorly in the playoffs impacting Marner's production but guess what, at his cap hit, his lack of production in big games is a big part of why the team does poorly. Of course it's not all his fault (despite how many times his fanboys love to throw out that straw man argument), but when he disappears after the first 4 games he's part of the problem, that's the way I see it anyway. Or maybe it's all Keefe's fault for playing him too much I dunno, I think that's an interesting subject for discussion but hey, if people don't want to talk about the playoffs that's their right.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Except the numbers don't drop off collectively. Marner drops off a cliff, while Nylander just keeps on truckin'.

On one hand, it's a small sample size but on the other hand, this has been happening for many years so not sure how small it is anymore. It's not just games 5-7 either, it's that he seems to be burned out after the first 4 games. Not that that changes things that much, but adding the entirety of the Florida series does make the sample size bigger.

If Marner can keep playing strong for the entire playoffs this spring the way Nylander seems to be able to do, I'll be very happy. But if he fades away again, I wouldn't commit 12-13 million of our cap space to a guy that's an regular season all-star, but probably isn't going to help you win the cup. If others disagree, that's fine, to each his own.

You mention the team doing poorly in the playoffs impacting Marner's production but guess what, at his cap hit, his lack of production in big games is a big part of why the team does poorly. Of course it's not all his fault (despite how many times his fanboys love to throw out that straw man argument), but when he disappears after the first 4 games he's part of the problem, that's the way I see it anyway. Or maybe it's all Keefe's fault for playing him too much I dunno, I think that's an interesting subject for discussion but hey, if people don't want to talk about the playoffs that's their right.

Except they do or all these other vaunted playoff performers could pull the Leafs through. Or does Marner carry this team on his back or something?

 

[Jojalu]

I would love to love Marner. He is very talented. But his constant turnovers and ridiculous untimely bad passes, and just general aura about him are very unappealing. I think everyone wants to see him and pals just tear it up in the playoffs. Won't happen till they change their approach to the game (in playoffs).

Marner doesn't turn the puck over any more than any star player.

Kuch, Pasta, Drai, Mack, McDavid, Marchand all have more give aways than him.

It is actually surprising how little Matthews and Nylander turn the puck over.

 

[Notsince67]

^^
We are in "Fast and Furious 9" territory now. Yet some are wondering about the end of this movie..

On a side note, I'm enjoying Matthews being on fire.

@Notsince67 As someone who works in "data science" , what are the odds of anyone(let's say winger) playing 25min a game with 70goal scorer center having 50 point season ?

So you actually believe it is possible to get 70 goals playing with a 50 point quality player as your #2? Have you ever played a single game of hockey in your life?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Yes yes the old clutch narrative that no one seems to have it until they win and then - magically - they had it all along!

See: Wayne Gretzky, Steve Yzerman, Stamkos, Ovechkin for recent examples.

I wouldn't pay attention to dumb narratives. I remember Yzerman as a young player was freaking awesome in the playoffs, not on him that the team didn't win. That's just one example from memory but in any case, you shouldn't hold lack of team success against a player. Like the Leafs last season, I can say Rielly played fantastic and the fact that we lost is irrelevant. Can't say the same for everyone though, if they all played up to their potential the was Rielly did, we've have done a lot better as a team.

I never heard anyone questioning Wayne Gretzky's "clutchness", what are you smoking?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I never heard anyone questioning Wayne Gretzky's "clutchness", what are you smoking?

The <insert name here> can’t perform in the big games narrative is as old as time, and yes, at one time Gretzky was criticized the same way.

It is a narrative that gets washed away and shown for what it is after the first win.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Except they do or all these other vaunted playoff performers could pull the Leafs through. Or does Marner carry this team on his back or something?

They do what? What does this mean?

 

[ULF_55]

Except they do or all these other vaunted playoff performers could pull the Leafs through. Or does Marner carry this team on his back or something?

Obviously, no one is carrying the team on their back.

 

[BraveCanadian]

They do what? What does this mean?

It means you are pinning the blame on a player in a team game.

 

[Gary Nylund]

The <insert name here> can’t perform in the big games narrative is as old as time, and yes, at one time Gretzky was criticized the same way.

It is a narrative that gets washed away and shown for what it is after the first win.

LOL where are you getting this from? Gretzky crushed it in the playoffs pretty much all his career.

 

[Sypher04]

That's not what I do but if that's the way you see it for whatever reason, feel free to put me ignore if my posts are impacting your ability to enjoy life.

A year ago I was talking about the playoffs just as much as I am now, but I was predicting Marner would kill it instead of fading away as he usually does. Funny how nobody was complaining then but again, if you are bothered by people discussing facts when those facts are negative, put those people on ignore, create a nice echo chamber for yourself where you can be happy.

My comment was responding to the concept of what you stated, not your actions specifically. My apologies, I could have made that clearer. I’ve literally never ignored a single person on this site, I don’t let things that I read here affect my mood or life beyond this board even the tiniest bit.

Anyway, I have no issue with negative comments (I have and will continue to make them myself where I feel justified to), nor do I want an echo chamber, so swing and a miss on both counts. All I’m saying is it can be a lot when it’s constant (which it is for some), and there is literally nothing the team can do right now to change these things.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It means you are pinning the blame on a player in a team game.

It seems like you're having trouble understanding what you're reading. Which part of "Of course it's not all his fault " are you having trouble with?

He deserves some blame, so do a number of others.

 

[ULF_55]

So you actually believe it is possible to get 70 goals playing with a 50 point quality player as your #2? Have you ever played a single game of hockey in your life?

I didn't read it that way.

I read it, if your linemates scores 70 goals, what are the odds you'd only have 50 points?

As in someone is going to get assists on those goals, and most often you would expect it would be their linemate, although I suppose if half those goals were PP goals, and the linemates wasn't on the PP maybe the players can't get to 50 points?

player x - player y - player z

Player y - 70 goals
Player z - 35 assists ... + 15 goals = 50 points
Player x - Bertuzzi the first half of the season ... ;-)

 

[BraveCanadian]

LOL where are you getting this from? Gretzky crushed it in the playoffs pretty much all his career.

He’s the best big game player ever, but he was criticized early on when he put up big regular seasons while the Oilers went no where.

 

[ToneDog]

He’s the best big game player ever, but he was criticized early on when he put up big regular seasons while the Oilers went no where.

36 points in 17 games. 21 points in 9 games his 2nd NHL playoffs.

 

[666]

XGF% ... Really?

And there you go. I didn't see you debunking the guy who produces nonsense Corsi stats supposedly proving that Marner is bad in the regular season. You are in the cult.

 

[666]

That's not what I do but if that's the way you see it for whatever reason, feel free to put me ignore if my posts are impacting your ability to enjoy life.

A year ago I was talking about the playoffs just as much as I am now, but I was predicting Marner would kill it instead of fading away as he usually does. Funny how nobody was complaining then but again, if you are bothered by people discussing facts when those facts are negative, put those people on ignore, create a nice echo chamber for yourself where you can be happy.

It's not the facts that are the problem. It's the constant, repeated, over and over and over whining about the playoffs in the Marner thread. We get it. Stop whining. We ALL get it.

 

[Arzak]

So you actually believe it is possible to get 70 goals playing with a 50 point quality player as your #2? Have you ever played a single game of hockey in your life?

I'll do what you failed to do and answer your question.

Yes

Remind me, what was the point gap between Pasta when he scored 62 last year and the second Bruin?

 

[Stephen]

Marner's edgework and circling the perimeter looked so elite in the Colorado game. That's the version you need, that's the pace he has to go in the playoffs.