Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[Gabriel426]

It's true, Marner and the Leafs moving forward is actually a very nuanced discussion, no extremes, and probably the most important and most interesting strategic topic in front of us. Both sides have a solid foundation to debate from. Unfortunately it's impossible here to get valuable dialogue on the matter.

I don’t think Tre will trade MM as the team that got players who can justify the trade won’t be parting with those players.
Tre will also resign MM unless he asks for crazy amount, if he asks for Willie’s contract or a bit more, he will resign with the Leafs.

 

[LeafEgo]

I don’t think Tre will trade MM as the team that got players who can justify the trade won’t be parting with those players.
Tre will also resign MM unless he asks for crazy amount, if he asks for Willie’s contract or a bit more, he will resign with the Leafs.

There's that, and the NMC. The challenge now is
you're likely looking at getting no return and replacing his value through FA, or replacing value through trade, but we have nothing left to trade.

It's above my experience level what we do today, hence the interest in good discussion. I dont know what Tre is thinking, or the external pressures he has removing a superstar from Toronto in a cap world. Unlike the Yankees we can't just buy another one.

We clearly need a very different strategic plan than what we have had the last five years. But also have to recognize how handicapped we are, and the limitations on how strong of a team we can now contend with through the latter half of the era. What gives us the best chance?

 

[Gilmour1996]

Probably too late but would like to see him put on 10-20 pounds of muscle. Not a Jose Canseco/Barry Bonds level improvement but whatever he could muster in the off-season. Are players tested for steroids in the off-season? If I was an NHL player I would do whatever I could get away with to improve my strength and rage.

 

[JL17]

Should have seen him carry London to the Mem Cup, not many have had a junior season like that one. Hopefully we see the same here one day.

No Tkachuk no Dvorak Marner doesn’t lead that team any where. Those 2 were just as big of reasons for winning as Marner.

 

[ACC1224]

No Tkachuk no Dvorak Marner doesn’t lead that team any where. Those 2 were just as big of reasons for winning as Marner.

Yes in team sports you need more than one player leading if you want to be successful. Only one player got his name on all the various MVP trophies though. Only Ontario player ever to do so.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Me? Do you mean Justin Bourne the author who wrote the article for The Athletic?

Both. The author for writing horrible articles to get clicks, and you for reposting them in every thread after they've already been proven to be meaningless noise.

Here is ANOTHER article discussing Marners most recent playoffs from author Jonas Siegal for The Athletic also article explaining how Marners shots are not dangerous and how it may negatively affect Matthews post season production:

You didn't post an article. You paraphrased the position, and posted a few select statements from an article, because parts of that article were too complimentary to Marner.
But yes, that part of the article is also bad. First of all, the shot chart isn't even complete. He scored 3 goals, and it's only showing 2 there. Which means he's only showing 5v5.
And the conclusion is largely unsupported assumptions, based on an argument that essentially boils down to:

Take the hottest 5v5 stretch of Marner's career from the second half of the 2021-2022 regular season facing all quality of opponents, and if he doesn't hit the exact same individual shot metrics at 5v5 in the 2023 playoffs against exclusively top teams.. he bad, despite scoring more goals and points than ever before, and performing and producing at an elite level.

Though of course, the article doesn't actually say he's bad. It actually talks more about how good Marner is. Marner being bad is more your incorrect interpretation of a few very flawed lines discussing the author's badly supported and simplistic assumptions about how he could improve.

 

[Nineteen67]

Rosehill?????

The neverwas was completely forgotten about until he mentioned Marner.

What’s next?

Andre Deveaux going online to say that William Nylander is too soft and needs to be traded.


Rosehill!!!!!?????

Lol!

Lol

Rosehill.

I needed to google him just to remember his first name Jay.

That’s how much a nobody he was

Are you suggesting that only fans that were star NHL players can voice an opinion on who they like?

 

[JL17]

Yes in team sports you need more than one player leading if you want to be successful. Only one player got his name on all the various MVP trophies though. Only Ontario player ever to do so.

Round of applause. Good thing he’s continued on with those junior habits to the NHL. Lots of winning success there. Again if not for those other 2 he doesn’t get his name on any of them. Their responsible play allowed Mitch to play offence.

 

[DarkKnight]

Round of applause. Good thing he’s continued on with those junior habits to the NHL. Lots of winning success there. Again if not for those other 2 he doesn’t get his name on any of them. Their responsible play allowed Mitch to play offence.

Plus look at all the Selke's those two have been nominated for. What a joke comment.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Wow, a lot of orgasmic exuberance here. What happened, did Marner add another good game in February to his resume or something?

 

[ACC1224]

Round of applause. Good thing he’s continued on with those junior habits to the NHL. Lots of winning success there. Again if not for those other 2 he doesn’t get his name on any of them. Their responsible play allowed Mitch to play offence.

Yep reputation for needing to be helped defensively.

Yes we all hope he can play better in the playoffs, no one has said differently. Someone said he had never risen in big moments which is obviously an uneducated opinion.

 

[DarkKnight]

Yep reputation for needing to be helped defensively.

Yes we all hope he can play better in the playoffs, no one has said differently. Someone said he had never risen in big moments which is obviously an uneducated opinion.

Decent little moment here in a nothing game...



And it's not about him doing no wrong, that frame by his detractors is bullshit. It's about having some nuance to your two dimensional worlds.

 

[JL17]

Plus look at all the Selke's those two have been nominated for. What a joke comment.

What does that have to do with Selkes now. D

 

[DarkKnight]

What does that have to do with Selkes now. D

You're actually arguing the other two carried him defensively, which is pure unmitigated bullshit. But since they were the defensive dynamos, why aren't they known for their defensive play in the show like Marner? Sorry to ask questions, I know I'll have to hear an answer.

 

[JL17]

Yep reputation for needing to be helped defensively.

Yes we all hope he can play better in the playoffs, no one has said differently. Someone said he had never risen in big moments which is obviously an uneducated opinion.

Again we’re talking about his days in London. I was a season ticket holder for his time in London. If that team didn’t have Dvorak or Tkachuk there is no Memorial cup for Mitch. So uneducated is probably the wrong term to use.

Mitch has had moments but they very few and far between and when the chips are on the table the last 5 playoff years games 5,6 and 7 he’s not able to generate anything or be effective.

 

[JL17]

You're actually arguing the other two carried him defensively, which is pure unmitigated bullshit. But since they were the defensive dynamos, why aren't they known for their defensive play in the show like Marner? Sorry to ask questions, I know I'll have to hear an answer.

Having season tickets and watching his years in London and that team Dvorak was the back bone to that line. They allowed Mitch to generate offense which what helped the team excel. Dvorak was playing a 200 foot game and that what he was drafted on. Roles change and players change. Dvorak you well know has had a significant injury almost every year and hasn’t been able to get any traction for his career and well Tkachuk has shown he’s been able to get the his team to the finals and been clutch along the way.

 

[DarkKnight]

Against Florida last year Mitch had 4 points, Bill 3, Matthews 1 assist. Clearly he deserves all the blame, amazes me how 34 gets a pass and he was a complete no show that entire series. Anyways back to tortured reality....

Again we’re talking about his days in London. I was a season ticket holder for his time in London. If that team didn’t have Dvorak or Tkachuk there is no Memorial cup for Mitch. So uneducated is probably the wrong term to use.

Mitch has had moments but they very few and far between and when the chips are on the table the last 5 playoff years games 5,6 and 7 he’s not able to generate anything or be effective.

If that team didn't have Mitch there were no Cups for Dvorak or Tkachuk. Sure a silly argument you're making dude.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Mitch has had moments but they very few and far between and when the chips are on the table the last 5 playoff years games 5,6 and 7 he’s not able to generate anything or be effective.

These are the simple facts that some people refuse to acknowledge:

Playoff Marner:
Games 1-4 - 1.19 PPG
Games 5-7 - 0.47 PPG

 

[DarkKnight]

Having season tickets and watching his years in London and that team Dvorak was the back bone to that line. They allowed Mitch to generate offense which what helped the team excel. Dvorak was playing a 200 foot game and that what he was drafted on. Roles change and players change. Dvorak you well know has had a significant injury almost every year and hasn’t been able to get any traction for his career and well Tkachuk has shown he’s been able to get the his team to the finals and been clutch along the way.

Yes you're clearly right, you were there, these are AI generated fan boy photos. This place is such a joke sometimes.

 

[Raging Bull]

Funny that Marner is by far the best defensive player from that line (Tkachuk and Dvorak) now that they are in the NHL.

 

[JL17]

Against Florida last year Mitch had 4 points, Bill 3, Matthews 1 assist. Clearly he deserves all the blame, amazes me how 34 gets a pass and he was a complete no show that entire series. Anyways back to tortured reality....


If that team didn't have Mitch there were no Cups for Dvorak or Tkachuk. Sure a silly argument you're making dude.

So if no Tkachuk no Memorial Cup either. The team needed all three and they were heavily relied on to win.
If we look at reality Nylander and Rielly have gotten things done when it’s needed. The other 3 haven’t. Rielly has especially shown to be the best of the 5 when they under the gun.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Against Florida last year Mitch had 4 points, Bill 3, Matthews 1 assist. Clearly he deserves all the blame, amazes me how 34 gets a pass and he was a complete no show that entire series. Anyways back to tortured reality....

If that team didn't have Mitch there were no Cups for Dvorak or Tkachuk. Sure a silly argument you're making dude.

I've always been a "big picture" kind of guy so let's take a look at the last 5 years. This was posted by someone who crunched the numbers:

I rounded my numbers, but the big 4 over the last 5 years in the playoffs:
Matthews: 18% less points per game in the playoffs vs regular season
Marner: 24% less points per game in the playoffs
Nylander: 2% less points per game in the playoffs
Tavares: 27% less points per game in the playoffs.

Conclusion: The only one of our star forwards that has played up to expectations is Nylander.

And BTW, if you don't think Matthews gets a pass, you should stick your head outside of Marner threads every now and then, you'd be surprised. Yes not many are complaining right now because of the great season he's having, kind of like every time Marner has a good game in February, you're overwhelmed with excitement and raving about how awesome he is as if him choking in the playoffs isn't an annual event.

 

[JL17]

Funny that Marner is by far the best defensive player from that line (Tkachuk and Dvorak) now that they are in the NHL.

Dvorak hasn’t been able to stay healthy to have much of a career. But he’s been a first PK guy 3rd line Center when healthy.
Tkachuks a pretty good 200ft player.
All 3 have grown into different players for the roles that play going forward.

 

[ULF_55]

Reverse Red Kelly ...

Be highest paid defender.

 

[William Johnson]

Good afternoon, everyone.

I've seen the phrase 'cherry-picked' used frequently here for years, usually by the same posters, to criticise other posters' use of stats. We've also seen the concept applied to disparage well-known, professional journalists' supposed lack of understanding of advanced statistics, which always makes me yawn and/or chuckle. It seems like discussing Mitch Marner generates a lot of accusations of cherry-picking for some reason.

My question is: In your opinion, what would be a true example of a 'cherry-picked' (pro or anti) Marner stat you've seen here? I'll offer up the following nugget from a while back:

"Nylander has outproduced Marner in 1 out of our 8 playoff series, for the record, and even in that one series where Nylander had easier situations to produce and an inflated OISH% while Marner played with two injured players who hit a playoff-leading number of posts in one round,"

And, in the spirit of further keeping this on topic for the thread, I would say that Marner's OHL clutch performance initially had me hopeful that he'd come through in the NHL playoffs, but that was years ago. I think other teams have his number now about how to play him physically in the post-season. I'd love to see him find a way, but I'm not sure he's got the backbone for it. Hope I'm wrong, obviously!