Player Discussion Mitch Marner

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Not that he deserves to be there, but Marner will love the all-star game………if he doesn’t get booed :cool:

The All Star game is made for Marner. Nobody is going to boo his spin o rama fest. Curious how does at skills other than speed or shot.
 
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The All Star game is made for Marner. Nobody is going to boo his spin o rama fest. Curious how does at skills other than speed or shot.
When he’s introduced…..incentivize him to waive the NMC

Shot? LoL
 
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I think the Leafs have all the leverage here. If they get bounced 1st round again they'll be in a perfect position to warrant a significant change from the core. We've seen for years that the 'top heavy' approach DOES NOT WORK.

Marner either takes a small bump in pay, or he can leave his hometown and explore other markets. At some point, the Leafs need to realize that they'll never win with that pathetic D core and zero contributions from the bottom 6.

Mitchy walks that's $11m for D men, one year later Tavares goes to the retirement home and that's another $11m for bottom 6/D men. This is a chance to give the team a significant facelift. Losing Marner for nothing would hurt but you gain the cap room and you lose the sucky baby attitude.

I don't want to go through another of of these:

 
I think the Leafs have all the leverage here. If they get bounced 1st round again they'll be in a perfect position to warrant a significant change from the core. We've seen for years that the 'top heavy' approach DOES NOT WORK.

Marner either takes a small bump in pay, or he can leave his hometown and explore other markets. At some point, the Leafs need to realize that they'll never win with that pathetic D core and zero contributions from the bottom 6.

Mitchy walks that's $11m for D men, one year later Tavares goes to the retirement home and that's another $11m for bottom 6/D men. This is a chance to give the team a significant facelift. Losing Marner for nothing would hurt but you gain the cap room and you lose the sucky baby attitude.

I don't want to go through another of of these:


Top heavy does work, it just can‘t be the same player at the same positions.
TB is a good example.
 
Top heavy does work, it just can‘t be the same player at the same positions.
TB is a good example.
Yeah I see top heavy as having half your cap in your top 6. The rest of the roster is so garbage you have a rookie who has hit a wall on line 1 LW, a plug who hasn't scored in 20+ games on line 2 LW, a couple of over the hill D men playing big minutes...it doesn't work.

Tampa works cause their cap is spent fairly evenly across forwards, stud D man and goalie.

Anyone who thinks this team is going on a long run needs their head examined. Boston, Tampa, Florida are gonna absolutely tee off on them.
 
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Top heavy does work, it just can‘t be the same player at the same positions.
TB is a good example.
Let’s look at Tampas top 4. Kucherov, Point, Stamkos and Hedman.

That’s about $35mil (Stamkos will be UFA after the season)

Our top 4 does not have a Hedman, but does include a corpse. And all for the low price of $46 mil.

Hoochie Mama
 
The problem with Marner isn't one of skill.

It's one of attitude. The typical entitled demeanour of a privileged upbringing. Always quick to point the finger at someone else.

Rather than accept personal responsibility for his own shortcomings.

For every finger you point there's gonna be ten pointing back at you. Maybe that's why this thread is so full of fans who don't care if this guy stays or not. Marner should be universally loved by Leafs Nation.

His piss poor condescending attitude is a hard pill to swallow for the hardworking blue collar fans who pay his salary though.

Fans don't think he deserves what he's getting paid now. Going into a contract year should bode well for improved performance. Not that it will make any difference in how fans perceive him.

You can't buy respect.
 
Once again, we have a pretty weak farm system at the moment, no draft picks to trade along with assets, and no real ELC talent this year or next to help in our defense or depth scoring.
We don't have top tier blue chippers in the system, because we aren't drafting in the lottery, but we have a solid prospect pool and a lot to look forward to. Many of our prospects are excelling beyond their draft position and are trending towards at least quality NHL depth, if not more. I recommend taking a read through our prospects thread for more information on what our prospects are doing.

We also have plenty of draft picks and assets to trade, if we wanted to. As for ELC talent this year, what do you think Knies and Robertson are? And that's not even counting Holmberg, McMann, and Woll, who are internal depth on ELC-like contracts and contributing this year. We're probably adding even more next year, with Cowan leading the OHL in P/GP, Minten already getting a taste of the NHL and captaining team Canada, Niemela excelling in the AHL, KHL rookie of the year Grebenkin potentially coming over, AHL rookie of the month Tverberg over PPG, etc. We're at the start of our first big wave of prospects since 2016, and that will help a ton.
You basically just stated that all you need is a hot goalie and a good top 6 and you'll win the cup.
I'm not sure how you got that from anything I said. There are many different ways to win a cup, and nothing is a guarantee.
What I said is that allocating significant money to certain areas is usually inefficient, and even when teams win on the backs of or with the help of those areas, it is not a result of allocating significant money to that area. It is a result of pieces within that area performing beyond their pay, and often just for those specific couple months.
Look at Colorado when they won, they had great depth on D. Their goaltending wasn't even great .902sv%, but they also had great depth scoring outside of their top 6.
Colorado didn't spend some abnormal amount on their defense though. They benefitted from Byram excelling on his ELC, and Manson being retained down to 2m.
Same story with their depth scoring. It wasn't from big contracts in their bottom six. It was from Nichushkin, excelling beyond his 2.5m pay. It was from Lehkonen excelling beyond his 1.15m pay. Pieces that got hot at the right time, not expensive pieces.
Look at Vegas last year, they were not top heavy, but rather distributed in terms of cap allocation across their lineup, as well as Hill rocking it. So your assessment of having to fluke into drafting a goalie, or having one get hot at the right time isn't really factual.
They literally had a goalie, who hadn't done anything of note prior, and who wasn't being paid very much, get hot at the right time.
As for their depth scoring? The likes of Stephenson, Barbashev, Marchessault, and Amadio performing well above their pay for that stretch.
None of these noted pieces on these teams are things we couldn't afford.
You just need "solid" goaltending to win, and you can buy that if you want too.
Not really though. The correlation between goalie pay and performance is incredibly weak. You can easily pay a ton and get garbage results in the playoffs, or pay basically nothing and have your goalie perform like a superstar in the playoffs. We've seen it a ton.
I won't get into your assessment of low correlation between defensive spending and cup wins. I need to see your data to refute your statement,
Rank the teams by defensive spending, and then rank the teams by defensive results ~25 games into a season, and you can see the relatively weak correlation for yourself.
We can match the defensive spending of teams that have won cups while still keeping our best players.
We do not have anywhere near the depth that any of the past 5 cup winners have had on D.
We've had defensive results in recent years that match and surpass the defensive results of recent cup winners.
We kind of abandoned defense this year, but we can get back there within our current core cap structure.
Can you provide me with any context surrounding your belief that paying 4 forwards half your cap leads to playoff success? I can't find one example of a team built like that winning.
That's because no team has really had the opportunity to build like that in the first place. There are countless ways to win a cup. Teams have won spending half their cap on a collection of players that provide less impact than our core four, so it's unclear how people are coming to the conclusion that this can't work. Quite frankly, I don't care how other teams did stuff. That was their way, and everybody is different in some way. This is our best shot. Getting less impact out of that cap space isn't going to move us closer to a cup.
 
You forgot soft and scared…..4 out of 7
Roger that, but to be fair all three of the amigos are soft and scared……..

Rather pic on jt he’s the one we can do withouT we can put anyone in his place and have them produce
JT’s certainly not worth his price tag, but he’s far from junk, if you want to focus on players that are junk, let’s talk about the likes of: Brodie, Gio, Reeves, Timmins………
 
I think the Leafs have all the leverage here. If they get bounced 1st round again they'll be in a perfect position to warrant a significant change from the core. We've seen for years that the 'top heavy' approach DOES NOT WORK.

Marner either takes a small bump in pay, or he can leave his hometown and explore other markets. At some point, the Leafs need to realize that they'll never win with that pathetic D core and zero contributions from the bottom 6.

Mitchy walks that's $11m for D men, one year later Tavares goes to the retirement home and that's another $11m for bottom 6/D men. This is a chance to give the team a significant facelift. Losing Marner for nothing would hurt but you gain the cap room and you lose the sucky baby attitude.

I don't want to go through another of of these:


I hadn't seen before, thanks for sharing. I only remember rumours but it seems clear now that it wasn't just rumours and I'm sorry, I can't help but feel disgusted that those offers weren't enough for money mitch. Want's to win a cup in Toronto, but obviously squeezing the team for every last penny he can is a higher priority.

Love the emotion from O'Dog, banging his fist on the table. I only wish that our team played showed emotion like that from time to time. And O'Dog was 100% right, if he was unwilling to take any of those offers which were more than fair, we should have traded his bony ass but instead, Dubas bent over even further for him. He got Marner signed, but for only 6 years and he sold the soul of the team in the process.

I've said it many times, Dubas did a lot of good things here but he also made some mistakes and that Marner contract is #1 on the list, nothing else comes close.

Not sure who to be more pissed at, Marner for being such a greedy egomaniac or Dubas for being such a wimp.
 
I hadn't seen before, thanks for sharing. I only remember rumours but it seems clear now that it wasn't just rumours and I'm sorry, I can't help but feel disgusted that those offers weren't enough for money mitch. Want's to win a cup in Toronto, but obviously squeezing the team for every last penny he can is a higher priority.

Love the emotion from O'Dog, banging his fist on the table. I only wish that our team played showed emotion like that from time to time. And O'Dog was 100% right, if he was unwilling to take any of those offers which were more than fair, we should have traded his bony ass but instead, Dubas bent over even further for him. He got Marner signed, but for only 6 years and he sold the soul of the team in the process.

I've said it many times, Dubas did a lot of good things here but he also made some mistakes and that Marner contract is #1 on the list, nothing else comes close.

Not sure who to be more pissed at, Marner for being such a greedy egomaniac or Dubas for being such a wimp.
Be pissed at Dubas, not many here would take less if offered more or knew they could squeeze every nickel out of Boy Wonder……….
 
Be pissed at Dubas, not many here would take less if offered more or knew they could squeeze every nickel out of Boy Wonder……….
Yeah true enough, can't blame a guy too much for taking whatever he can get. And I have other reasons to be pissed at Marner anyway so there is that.
 
Roger that, but to be fair all three of the amigos are soft and scared……..


JT’s certainly not worth his price tag, but he’s far from junk, if you want to focus on players that are junk, let’s talk about the likes of: Brodie, Gio, Reeves, Timmins………
Those four between them are making $8.25M. JT is making $11M. Next year those four will be making $2.45. JT will be making $11M.
 
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We don't have top tier blue chippers in the system, because we aren't drafting in the lottery, but we have a solid prospect pool and a lot to look forward to. Many of our prospects are excelling beyond their draft position and are trending towards at least quality NHL depth, if not more. I recommend taking a read through our prospects thread for more information on what our prospects are doing.

We also have plenty of draft picks and assets to trade, if we wanted to. As for ELC talent this year, what do you think Knies and Robertson are? And that's not even counting Holmberg, McMann, and Woll, who are internal depth on ELC-like contracts and contributing this year. We're probably adding even more next year, with Cowan leading the OHL in P/GP, Minten already getting a taste of the NHL and captaining team Canada, Niemela excelling in the AHL, KHL rookie of the year Grebenkin potentially coming over, AHL rookie of the month Tverberg over PPG, etc. We're at the start of our first big wave of prospects since 2016, and that will help a ton.

I'm not sure how you got that from anything I said. There are many different ways to win a cup, and nothing is a guarantee.
What I said is that allocating significant money to certain areas is usually inefficient, and even when teams win on the backs of or with the help of those areas, it is not a result of allocating significant money to that area. It is a result of pieces within that area performing beyond their pay, and often just for those specific couple months.

Colorado didn't spend some abnormal amount on their defense though. They benefitted from Byram excelling on his ELC, and Manson being retained down to 2m.
Same story with their depth scoring. It wasn't from big contracts in their bottom six. It was from Nichushkin, excelling beyond his 2.5m pay. It was from Lehkonen excelling beyond his 1.15m pay. Pieces that got hot at the right time, not expensive pieces.

They literally had a goalie, who hadn't done anything of note prior, and who wasn't being paid very much, get hot at the right time.
As for their depth scoring? The likes of Stephenson, Barbashev, Marchessault, and Amadio performing well above their pay for that stretch.
None of these noted pieces on these teams are things we couldn't afford.

Not really though. The correlation between goalie pay and performance is incredibly weak. You can easily pay a ton and get garbage results in the playoffs, or pay basically nothing and have your goalie perform like a superstar in the playoffs. We've seen it a ton.

Rank the teams by defensive spending, and then rank the teams by defensive results ~25 games into a season, and you can see the relatively weak correlation for yourself.
We can match the defensive spending of teams that have won cups while still keeping our best players.

We've had defensive results in recent years that match and surpass the defensive results of recent cup winners.
We kind of abandoned defense this year, but we can get back there within our current core cap structure.

That's because no team has really had the opportunity to build like that in the first place. There are countless ways to win a cup. Teams have won spending half their cap on a collection of players that provide less impact than our core four, so it's unclear how people are coming to the conclusion that this can't work. Quite frankly, I don't care how other teams did stuff. That was their way, and everybody is different in some way. This is our best shot. Getting less impact out of that cap space isn't going to move us closer to a cup.
Imagine having this much free time

1624686978011.gif
 
I hadn't seen before, thanks for sharing. I only remember rumours but it seems clear now that it wasn't just rumours and I'm sorry, I can't help but feel disgusted that those offers weren't enough for money mitch. Want's to win a cup in Toronto, but obviously squeezing the team for every last penny he can is a higher priority.

Love the emotion from O'Dog, banging his fist on the table. I only wish that our team played showed emotion like that from time to time. And O'Dog was 100% right, if he was unwilling to take any of those offers which were more than fair, we should have traded his bony ass but instead, Dubas bent over even further for him. He got Marner signed, but for only 6 years and he sold the soul of the team in the process.

I've said it many times, Dubas did a lot of good things here but he also made some mistakes and that Marner contract is #1 on the list, nothing else comes close.

Not sure who to be more pissed at, Marner for being such a greedy egomaniac or Dubas for being such a wimp.
Funny thing is, Mitchy signed the deal the day after this episode. I think Paul watches the show and probably figured out that his camp's greed was making Mitch look bad.

From 6:15 onwards speaks a lot of volumes, they're leaning towards most disappointing/underperforming core of our lifetimes.
 
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Love Marner but this Matthews-Marner bromance is so overblown.

Marner has literally zero significance to Matthews wanting to be a Leaf for life. Matthews is a superstar and loves the spotlight here.

Are you trying to say that the beat scorer in the league loves being is the Hockey Capital of the world, and being treated like a god when out and about. Oh and being the top paid NHL player as well going forward?

Thats crazy talk


/s
 
I think the Leafs have all the leverage here. If they get bounced 1st round again they'll be in a perfect position to warrant a significant change from the core. We've seen for years that the 'top heavy' approach DOES NOT WORK.

Marner either takes a small bump in pay, or he can leave his hometown and explore other markets. At some point, the Leafs need to realize that they'll never win with that pathetic D core and zero contributions from the bottom 6.

Mitchy walks that's $11m for D men, one year later Tavares goes to the retirement home and that's another $11m for bottom 6/D men. This is a chance to give the team a significant facelift. Losing Marner for nothing would hurt but you gain the cap room and you lose the sucky baby attitude.

I don't want to go through another of of these:


Those guys nailed it way back when. They do more often than not. Fancy stats people aren't keen on them, but Hayes and O'Neill generally see things the way they are.
 
Those guys nailed it way back when. They do more often than not. Fancy stats people aren't keen on them, but Hayes and O'Neill generally see things the way they are.

That was the correct response. It was a joke then as it is now, the overpays are real and the organization can't be taken serious. Just enjoy the talent entertaining you and if not, just find another team. That's the MLSE opinion shown by action. They know the fans are so loyal they can do whatever they want.

If they could, they could just put a bunch of face smashers on the ice with a couple stars and probably have some of the best ratings. The problem is the league is shy on that sort of thing now.
 
Roger that, but to be fair all three of the amigos are soft and scared……..


JT’s certainly not worth his price tag, but he’s far from junk, if you want to focus on players that are junk, let’s talk about the likes of: Brodie, Gio, Reeves, Timmins………
Minus timmins I agree but the only way jt is good is at 4.5 or less
 
soooooo ... did any reporter ask mitchy how it felt for his bff auston chose willie before him in the all star draft????
 
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