Player Discussion Mitch Marner

[notDatsyuk]

It's a tired topic but can either Mitch or Willy not learn centre? Especially Mitch, it's not hard to believe that he could learn it. Something for next year. When talking about spreading the damage Mitch is probably a better centre than the whole free agent class

Willy's played centre everywhere except for the Leafs, and that includes international play. When he joined the team we had Matty, Kadri, Bozak, and JvR (?). Then we added JT. Except for a couple of games here and there due to injuries he hasn't had the opportunity there.

Mitch is smaller and a bit more of a perimeter player, so I think Willy might be a better fit.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Yep, the only worry is the hit the top line takes defensively by removing Marner.

The good thing is Matthews is pretty good on his own.

I think Marner makes Tavares a lot more respectable defensively, whereas with JT and 88 together, you kind of hope for the best.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I wasn't singleing you out Gary , you're far from a hater and can actually be quite reasonable. It just seems there's some accounts on here who's sole existence is to shit on Marner at every opportunity and it gets tiresome. You were saying the super fans of his are insecure , then what does it say about the other side of the coin? It's creeping into "Finkel is Einhorn" territory.

Laces out!

Sure I didn't think you were singling me out, I was just using my example of constantly being called a hater when I'm not. Maybe I'm just sick of the term hater in general as it's thrown around much too loosely, especially ITT. I can think of not more than one account who's constantly on Marner's case but he's never rude about it, he's always backing his opinions with numbers and I think that's totally reasonable. Every now and then people come in here calling Marner a crybaby or whatever else (usually after he's said something dumb in an interview) but even those people I wouldn't call haters, over-knee-jerk-reactionary idiots is probably a better term (yes I just made that up) and those clowns are here for one or two posts and then they disappear.

I'm surprised it needs to be said that nobody feels hatred towards Marner. This is a message board and there's no interesting discussion to be had without people on both sides.

In any event, Marner is a raw production machine and he'd have hit his 100 points healthy. It's too bad it'll need to wait til next year.

The bolded is very well put!

As far as 100 point goes, I really couldn't care less. He consistently produces at a roughly 100 point level during the season, as far as that goes he's money in the bank. What I really want is for him to kill it in the playoffs, and not just for the first 4 games either. And we don't have to wait long at all to see if he can do it this season.

I just wish Keefe (sorry, I meant to say that idiot Keefe) had separated M&M earlier. I mean it's pretty sick to think that if Marner hadn't got injured, it might never have happened at all. And now it's so late in the season, we don't have that much time to try different combos to find out what works best for the team overall. f*** I'm so sick of Keefe I really am.

Matthews and Marner together gives the other team a strategic bullseye to shut down. If we spread it around it creates more mismatches and less of a chance they can focus their energy on one thing.

Marner boosting up middle lineup guys to be more offensive threats would be huge. Instead of Matthews and Marner out there for 25 minutes together you’ve suddenly got Matthews or Marner out there for 40 plus minutes. That’s huge.

It is huge, isn't it! And then you have Nylander as well meaning there shouldn't be more than a couple of minutes per game without one of the big 3 on the ice, sweet!

 

[DarkKnight]

He could easily play Centre, he's played there most of his life.

I'm surprised we haven't tried it, his defensive game is superior to Domi and we have that a go? He was decent at faceoffs earlier in his career, now he never takes one, but he would commit to it and ultimately I bet successful. It's strange we have tried it to me.

I’ve said since the Montreal series that in order to win with Marner and go on a deep run we need to separate the Leafs come up story with Marner’s personal growth story.

Separating Matthews from Marner and seeing him have success with Domi and Bertuzzi is great news. We don’t have to worry about the dynamic duo being neutralized. Or any of the pressure narratives that follow Mitch around.

Marner can go about his business separately and provide quality minutes on a separate line. Whether he gets it done or not the pressure has been dialled down. And if he gets hot, he gets hot. If he’s not, there’s another line to carry him through.

I wouldn’t mind seeing a Marner Nylander duo too at some point. Then drop Tavares down to a third line and just let him grind it out.

It is great news to see Matthews thriving with Domi, it opens up so many possibilities. Not sure I like Marner with McMann, and to a lesser extent Tavares though. I'd swap Knies in there, has better vision and can make plays. Willie and Mitch I'd love to see and I think it would work way better than people assume, they would create so much open ice and Willie has a great shot.

 

[DarkKnight]

Yep, the only worry is the hit the top line takes defensively by removing Marner.

Another reason he could work with Wiilie, make up for the passivity in our end.

 

[Stephen]

It's a tired topic but can either Mitch or Willy not learn centre? Especially Mitch, it's not hard to believe that he could learn it. Something for next year. When talking about spreading the damage Mitch is probably a better centre than the whole free agent class

Yeah I don’t get it. Mitch does a lot of center tasks already. Tracks 200 feet of ice, has two way awareness, kills penalties. Is a primary puck transporter and facilitator. And yet he isn’t a center. Maybe if they take Matthews away in the medium term he can just focus on being a centerman and stop with the hybrid stuff. Certainly on a pairing with Nylander he could be more of a center. Only downside is they’re both RH shots so they might not be the best regular duo.

Nylander is similarly a straw that stirs the drink kind of player. I know they’ve tried him at center as well.

 

[Stephen]

Yep, the only worry is the hit the top line takes defensively by removing Marner.

I’m not totally worried about that. If you think about the series back breaker in Game 2 vs Florida, Matthews and Marner and their casual zone exit and transition play is what did the team in.

If the Leafs have 3 strong scoring lines I can live with less defense come playoffs. Or at least tighten up when required.

 

[Aashir]

main boards are stupid AF

Marner vs Slafkovsky??

Try bertuzzi vs Slafkovsky

Can’t believe 17 idiots said Slaf

 

[Gabriel426]

I’ve said since the Montreal series that in order to win with Marner and go on a deep run we need to separate the Leafs come up story with Marner’s personal growth story.

Separating Matthews from Marner and seeing him have success with Domi and Bertuzzi is great news. We don’t have to worry about the dynamic duo being neutralized. Or any of the pressure narratives that follow Mitch around.

Marner can go about his business separately and provide quality minutes on a separate line. Whether he gets it done or not the pressure has been dialled down. And if he gets hot, he gets hot. If he’s not, there’s another line to carry him through.

I wouldn’t mind seeing a Marner Nylander duo too at some point. Then drop Tavares down to a third line and just let him grind it out.

I think Hayes said it best today. He said that when MM and AM are together, the 3rd guy on that line is whatever, just get them the puck…. But now with Domi and Bert with AM, it turns out the other two actually can provide offense.
also it is a nightmare for the opposing team to play shut down, as AM, MM and Willie are on separate lines and can create offence all by themselves.
If Keefe don’t galaxy brain it, this is by far the most balance lineup in the AM era.

 

[Petrus]

Great play by matthews and smart reaction of marner, to wait bertuzzi come back on bench to touch the puck and keep it on offensive zone.

-if he touch it immediatly, its a penalty
-if hes only came back to the bench, the puck move out of offensive zone

so he had been smart to understand thr situation and wait the last second to give the chance to matthews to make a play.

Some people do not fully appreciate how intelligent Marner is.

 

[Stephen]

I think Hayes said it best today. He said that when MM and AM are together, the 3rd guy on that line is whatever, just get them the puck…. But now with Domi and Bert with AM, it turns out the other two actually can provide offense.
also it is a nightmare for the opposing team to play shut down, as AM, MM and Willie are on separate lines and can create offence all by themselves.
If Keefe don’t galaxy brain it, this is by far the most balance lineup in the AM era.

Takes us back to the early days of this build when Matthews was with Hyman and Nylander. Marner was with Bozak and JVR and Kadri had his assortment of linemates.

 

[Gabriel426]

Takes us back to the early days of this build when Matthews was with Hyman and Nylander. Marner was with Bozak and JVR and Kadri had his assortment of linemates.

Like how we always thought they will be our 3 heads monster

 

[torontoblood]

Matthews and Marner together gives the other team a strategic bullseye to shut down. If we spread it around it creates more mismatches and less of a chance they can focus their energy on one thing.

Marner boosting up middle lineup guys to be more offensive threats would be huge. Instead of Matthews and Marner out there for 25 minutes together you’ve suddenly got Matthews or Marner out there for 40 plus minutes. That’s huge.

Pick your poison dilemma for the opposing teams/enemies. It’s like trying to kill a hydra. Kill one and you still have to worry about millions of other ones.

If they shut down Matthews, there’s marner on the second line coming up, and then there’s nylander on the third line waiting in the wings. Then Tavares is next.

And our secondary scoring is much more potent, skilled, grittier and impactful than previous years. Domi, McMann, reaves, bertuzzi play with bite, snarl, purpose and intensity. With the exception of reaves, they all are in their late 20s and players in that age range in professional sports are right in their prime both as athletes and as players. They also are kind of throwback players, they are really restoring the pat Quinn era feeling. They play at a very high pace, they impose their presence and make an impact in the game. They are changing the complexion and nature of this team, adding a dimension and flavor we lacked before. Alexander Kerfoot, Ilya Mikheyev, nic petan, denis malgin, Frederik Gauthier, Micheal bunting, nick foligno, Wayne simmonds, nick Ritchie, kasperi kapanen, Joe thornton, Andreas Johnsson, Zach aston Reese, Nicolas Aubé-kubel and company weren’t that physical and impactful. They were all invisible, soft, vanilla-flavored, nondescript players who did all the little things on the ice well, but they never made their presence felt and never made their mark when it counted. They weren’t dangerous and never brought a different attitude/contribution to this team. They just added more of the same to this team. Soft and timid players joining a team who was already soft. Zach Hyman was the exception back then.


Last year was kind of an anomaly, we got rid of engvall and traded him to the islanders. And we added Acciari, ROR, and Lafferty at the deadline.

You can’t easily neutralize a fully healthy leafs forward group, we have too much firepower.

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According to NHL statistics this season, Toronto is the third highest scoring team in the NHL, just behind Colorado and Dallas, and the highest scoring team in the eastern conference. We are 16th on defense(goals against) so we are league average defensively. But as long as we score goals and do just enough defensively (and that one of sammy or woll plays well in net), we will be fine.





By the way, not so long ago a similar team as the leafs, the penguins, won back to back titles in the late 2010s with a powerful, productive, speedy, skilled and relentless offense that came at opposing teams like waves. They didn’t have a strong top 6 defense if I recall correctly. Kris Letang was like our Morgan Reilly. And they had a good goaltender tandem like us in Murray/Fleury. Hopefully both woll and samsonov will do the same for us and will perform well in the playoffs.

 

[torontoblood]

I don’t like to see Matthews/marner together in my opinion. It’s not an ideal duo because when they are on the same trio together: they tend to be lazy, they float around the ice, they hang on the perimeter, they cherry pick, they only coast on their innate talent and they get into bad habits. They try to create too much fancy/perfect low percentage plays, they play east west dipsy doodle hockey, they get lazy and force the other third player in their line to do the forechecking, puck cycling, and dirty work in the corners to retrieve the puck.

With domi and bertuzzi, Matthews keeps it simple. He’s all business with them. They mesh well together and they just play straight, effective and simple north-south hockey.

 

[DarkKnight]

I don’t like to see Matthews/marner together in my opinion. It’s not an ideal duo because when they are on the same trio together: they tend to be lazy, they float around the ice, they hang on the perimeter, they cherry pick, they only coast on their innate talent and they get into bad habits. They try to create too much fancy/perfect low percentage plays, they play east west dipsy doodle hockey, they get lazy and force the other third player in their line to do the forechecking, puck cycling, and dirty work in the corners to retrieve the puck.

With domi and bertuzzi, Matthews keeps it simple. He’s all business with them. They mesh well together and they just play straight, effective and simple north-south hockey.

That’s not remotely true, they are one of the most effective duos in the league by every metric. Look, I like separating them too because it makes us harder to game plan against, and it takes away the pressure of one line having to produce for success. BUT, let’s not now pretend they weren’t absolutely dominate together, because they were, period, case closed. They didn’t get lazy, they didn’t not forecheck, that’s just pure fiction. Again, I like the change, but let’s not get carried away. Goals are goals, zone time is zone time, facts are facts, we don’t have to recreate reality to justify liking the current makeup.

 

[ACC1224]

I don’t like to see Matthews/marner together in my opinion. It’s not an ideal duo because when they are on the same trio together: they tend to be lazy, they float around the ice, they hang on the perimeter, they cherry pick, they only coast on their innate talent and they get into bad habits. They try to create too much fancy/perfect low percentage plays, they play east west dipsy doodle hockey, they get lazy and force the other third player in their line to do the forechecking, puck cycling, and dirty work in the corners to retrieve the puck.

With domi and bertuzzi, Matthews keeps it simple. He’s all business with them. They mesh well together and they just play straight, effective and simple north-south hockey.

Strange take, as @DarkKnight says 'not remotely true'.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That's not how it works Gary. The definition of Marner hater is someone who has currently or in the past wanted to get rid of him. To evaluate Marners talent, not on a day to day basis but his overall incredible talent and indisputable value to the team and still bizarrely choose to want him off of the team. We're not talking about criticizing him for a bad game or month or the playoffs but actually wanting him off of the team at some point. They can't flip flop their way out of it. They can't say that if he gets the Conn Smythe all is forgiven because if the haters had their way he would have been gone before it even happened. The haters will always be haters no matter what. Guess who is a hater?

The only hater around here is you. Sorry to see you're still obsessed with me. Have a nice day.

 

[666]

The only hater around here is you. Sorry to see you're still obsessed with me. Have a nice day.

Excellent retort. Tells you something doesn't it?

 

[Jojalu]

5vs5:
Marner: 950 mins 26 assists, 17 primary
Domi: assists 942 mins 34 assists, 21 primary assists

Domi beginning to run away as this years best passer on the team, while playing less time with Matthews and Tavares.

Really haed to say anything negative about Domi. He has been everything the Leafs needed.

Fact still remains that if the Leafs are ever going to win, they will need Marner to be at his best.

Hopefully he can pull the JT line up to par with the Matthews line and they both can roll throughout the playoffs.

Might as well start tonight

 

[arso40]

I'm surprised we haven't tried it, his defensive game is superior to Domi and we have that a go? He was decent at faceoffs earlier in his career, now he never takes one, but he would commit to it and ultimately I bet successful. It's strange we have tried it to me.


It is great news to see Matthews thriving with Domi, it opens up so many possibilities. Not sure I like Marner with McMann, and to a lesser extent Tavares though. I'd swap Knies in there, has better vision and can make plays. Willie and Mitch I'd love to see and I think it would work way better than people assume, they would create so much open ice and Willie has a great shot.

That’s not remotely true, they are one of the most effective duos in the league by every metric. Look, I like separating them too because it makes us harder to game plan against, and it takes away the pressure of one line having to produce for success. BUT, let’s not now pretend they weren’t absolutely dominate together, because they were, period, case closed. They didn’t get lazy, they didn’t not forecheck, that’s just pure fiction. Again, I like the change, but let’s not get carried away. Goals are goals, zone time is zone time, facts are facts, we don’t have to recreate reality to justify liking the current makeup.

They play a completely different style then matthews is playing right now personally I rather how he's playing now

 

[1specter]

I'm surprised we haven't tried it, his defensive game is superior to Domi and we have that a go? He was decent at faceoffs earlier in his career, now he never takes one, but he would commit to it and ultimately I bet successful. It's strange we have tried it to me.


It is great news to see Matthews thriving with Domi, it opens up so many possibilities. Not sure I like Marner with McMann, and to a lesser extent Tavares though. I'd swap Knies in there, has better vision and can make plays. Willie and Mitch I'd love to see and I think it would work way better than people assume, they would create so much open ice and Willie has a great shot.

McMann-Tavares-Marner have been dominating the ice since being put together, they're just not converting yet. Once upon a time Hyman-JT-Marner was one of the best lines in the NHL and McMann's game is similar to Hyman.

 

[Antropovsky]

Really haed to say anything negative about Domi. He has been everything the Leafs needed.

Fact still remains that if the Leafs are ever going to win, they will need Marner to be at his best.

Hopefully he can pull the JT line up to par with the Matthews line and they both can roll throughout the playoffs.

Might as well start tonight

I mean, JT and Marner haven't been that productive together since 2019 and very good arguments are online breaking down that it was likely the 27 year old, two time hart winner finalist who boosted Marner at that time and not the other way around. I mean a plethora of evidence from Tavares days as an Islander proved that linemates had a large boost in their production once on his line. There is no good evidence to show the same for Marner. In fact both Tavares and Matthew's have been the same if not more productive on lines without Marner.

Now Keefe is experimenting with Nylander on the Tavares and Marner line to get them going because offensively they struggle. Next year, this is a 33 million dollar line, probably the richest line in the NHL. It should be dominating and very productive.

 

[Niagara Bill]

The good thing is Matthews is pretty good on his own.

I think Marner makes Tavares a lot more respectable defensively, whereas with JT and 88 together, you kind of hope for the best.

I don't want one of the most talented offensive players in NHL, being transformed to a great defensive player. Play D, yes. Mitchy is best fir this team is when he plays behind the other teams D, making them clear our zone, finding open ice like Gretzy always did. Escape our zone.
You can find great D players, but you cannot find great O players. Mitchy has skills you cannot find or teach.
Unfortunately in the playoffs he too often plays like the Wizard of Oz, Lion.

 

[Jojalu]

I mean, JT and Marner haven't been that productive together since 2019 and very good arguments are online breaking down that it was likely the 27 year old, two time hart winner finalist who boosted Marner at that time and not the other way around. I mean a plethora of evidence from Tavares days as an Islander proved that linemates had a large boost in their production once on his line. There is no good evidence to show the same for Marner. In fact both Tavares and Matthew's have been the same if not more productive on lines without Marner.

Now Keefe is experimenting with Nylander on the Tavares and Marner line to get them going because offensively they struggle. Next year, this is a 33 million dollar line, probably the richest line in the NHL. It should be dominating and very productive.

Hard to argue that. If Keefe puts Willy with them, they need to be dominate every shift.

While just a small sample size, we have seen Matthews be able to play without Mitch and Willy.

Now Mitch has to rekindle the 2019 magic with JT, and Willy probably has to figure out how to play with Knies and I don't know who.

I doubt the drop Jarnkrok to the 4th line

 

[TMLAM34]

Before the season started, I was suggesting to see Matthews in between Knies and Bertuzzi. Domi has been a pleasant surprise and has worked really well with both Matthews and Bertuzzi. Domi and Bertuzzi aren’t the toughest guys around but they won’t take your shit, Matthews needs that on both his wings. It helps get Matthews more engaged all over the ice.

You can’t deny Matthews and Marner works, you have an elite sniper with an elite playmaker, it’ll work… What makes that pair not really work when it matter is that they both play a very soft game together, more so Marner than Matthews.