Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Skullz]

I haven't just decided anything. You are the one just deciding things. And appealing to clickbait quotes from media personalities. I've let data and actions decide. The action of Marner being paid more last time, and soon to be this time. The action of Rantanen being dumped. And I believe that GMs wouldn't ignore the objective data that shows Marner to be better. The contract history data shows that GMs align their contracts much more by point and primary point production than goals.

Without getting too deep into a topic that's already been extensively discussed... Through their respective pre-signing periods, Matthews led Marner 0.98 > 0.93 in P/GP and 0.83 > 0.71 in primary P/GP. And for the record, Matthews was on a 100 point (82 primary point) pace when he signed.

I mostly agree with your point that Marner and Rantanen are closer comparable than people on this board think.

Rantanen being traded has nothing to do with this. As you know, Marner has a full NMC, which makes any movement of him impossible. Not so for Rantanen.

In regards to contract, they signed two months apart, with Marner taking around 1.5 million more for the same length. They had essentially the same points per game, with Rantanen scoring more goals and doing better in the playoffs. I think the contract difference there is a Dubas error. There’s more than goals, but they were very comparable players in terms of contract still are.

 

[leafsfan5]

holy shit, we asked Marner if he wanted to go to Carolina in a Rantanen deal

IMPORTANT NOTE: Leafs told Marner they want to keep him, but a trade was open to Carolina if he didn't want to stay

Sources: Hurricanes asked for Maple Leafs' Marner in Rantanen deal

Post-deadline, there are always stories seeping out … some things that don’t happen, some that did. One that continues to evolve is what happened before Mikko Rantanen was traded from Carolina to Dallas.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[Legion34]

There is evidence, and we will soon have more. If you don't think it's enough, you're free to wait for more, or just ignore the nothing comment (that more than just I made). What people think other people think doesn't actually matter.

Marner is a better point and primary point producer. He has less goals because he's a playmaker instead of a goalscorer.

Primary points are just a common way to refer to goals and primary assists, which both appear on NHL.com.

1.) you have not and will not provide evidence that the “hockey world” views Marner as better. If you are relying on contracts, you will be comparing a high tax vs no state tax market (Toronto vs Dallas) or 8 years vs 7 years. Unless you want to say taxes don’t matter and compare

Dubas contracts to Tampa/florida deals?

2.) so we agree. Marner is a worse goal scorer

3.) we agree that there is no actual primary points stat, that it is not recorded anywhere in the NHL and is not used for any records, awards or contracts. Good.

The idea that you think that all people just combine multiple stats into a franken stat that no one else talks about but is used is hilarious. Anyone can do that.

“Matthews is worth more because he takes the most shots and blocks the most shots so all gms secretly have a net shot stat that they use to determine contracts”

Why not right. Shots taken and shots blocked are both on the website. Can I just say that NHL gms made up a stat and use it for contracts?

 

[Craig Button]

Damn looks like Rantanen was close to signing with the Oilers.

North of what he signed with Dallas.

 

[Jacquestrapless]

Ah so that's why Marner's camp had a hissy fit yesterday

 

[Smif]

Man, to be a fly on the wall with this deadline, it must've been chaotic and stressful for some GMs. Still happy with our day overall and think Brad did really well all things considered.

 

[Jozay]

holy shit, we asked Marner if he wanted to go to Carolina in a Rantanen deal

IMPORTANT NOTE: Leafs told Marner they want to keep him, but a trade was open to Carolina if he didn't want to stay

Sources: Hurricanes asked for Maple Leafs' Marner in Rantanen deal

Post-deadline, there are always stories seeping out … some things that don’t happen, some that did. One that continues to evolve is what happened before Mikko Rantanen was traded from Carolina to Dallas.

www.sportsnet.ca

I honestly think the Leafs FO was probably crossing their fingers would’ve said yes.

Had to give him that little bullshit “we still want you” so his feelings wouldn’t get hurt

 

[arso40]

Ah so that's why Marner's camp had a hissy fit yesterday

Pictures getting clearer

 

[Smif]

Ah so that's why Marner's camp had a hissy fit yesterday

What do you mean? I haven't heard anything about Marner's camp...

 

[DarkKnight]

Rantanen brings down Marner’s value, sure someone will overpay in free agency, but for the Leafs it puts a real marker out there. 12.25 looks fantastic for him now.

 

[Craig Button]

1.) you have not and will not provide evidence that the “hockey world” views Marner as better. If you are relying on contracts, you will be comparing a high tax vs no state tax market (Toronto vs Dallas) or 8 years vs 7 years. Unless you want to say taxes don’t matter and compare

Dubas contracts to Tampa/florida deals?

2.) so we agree. Marner is a worse goal scorer

3.) we agree that there is no actual primary points stat, that it is not recorded anywhere in the NHL and is not used for any records, awards or contracts. Good.

The idea that you think that all people just combine multiple stats into a franken stat that no one else talks about but is used is hilarious. Anyone can do that.

“Matthews is worth more because he takes the most shots and blocks the most shots so all gms secretly have a net shot stat that they use to determine contracts”

Why not right. Shots taken and shots blocked are both on the website. Can I just say that NHL gms made up a stat and use it for contracts?

Rantanen Marner Career Points | StatMuse

Mikko Rantanen has posted 687 points in his career.

www.statmuse.com

Rantanen Marner Career Short Handed Time On Ice | StatMuse

Mikko Rantanen has spent 19:15 on ice while shorthanded in his career.

www.statmuse.com

Rantanen Marner Career Takeaways | StatMuse

Mikko Rantanen has gotten 382 takeaways in his career.

www.statmuse.com

 

[Dog]

Damn looks like Rantanen was close to signing with the Oilers.

North of what he signed with Dallas.

That's nuts if the Oilers could of landed Rantanen. Draisaitl, McDavid, Rantanen line would be just fire!

 

[Leaffan1991]

Not comparable because of the no tax in Dallas thing.. I think the leafs will offer 13.25

 

[ClarkSittler]

Nobody is downplaying Rantanen's overall value. Some, like you, are trying to inflate Rantanen's overall value and talk up his attributes, while downplaying Marner's overall value and attributes. Both have been strong in the playoffs. You're just ignoring everything except for one aspect of play, and ignoring the context behind that one aspect.

Marner's combination of superior offensive and defensive impacts and ability to positively impact every game situation make him not only a better, but more versatile, impactful, well-rounded player.

I'm not inflating Rantanen’s value, just giving him the credit he’s earned. You’re the one downplaying his impact while overstating Marner’s.


Marner is a great player, but calling him ‘superior’ in every aspect is misleading. Rantanen is an elite scorer, a dominant playoff performer, and just as impactful offensively in different ways. His size, finishing ability, and versatility make him every bit as valuable.


If you want to talk about ignoring context, look in the mirror. Rantanen’s impact speaks for itself, you just don’t want to acknowledge it

That's incorrect. The post I replied to stated, and I quote, "the rest of the hockey world do t agree with you". I backed up my position. They didn't.

Fair enough but at least they posted a ranking by TSN, you cited some obscure relevance to a contract and nothing else, that isn't backing it up, not even close.

 

[Stephen]

Rantanen brings down Marner’s value, sure someone will overpay in free agency, but for the Leafs it puts a real marker out there. 12.25 looks fantastic for him now.

If Rantanen is a horse in the playoffs and Dallas wins and Marner doesn’t, that will hurt his contract demands too.

 

[Americanadian]

I am infinitely more impressed with Tre now that it’s public knowledge that he asked Marner to waive.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

holy shit, we asked Marner if he wanted to go to Carolina in a Rantanen deal

IMPORTANT NOTE: Leafs told Marner they want to keep him, but a trade was open to Carolina if he didn't want to stay

Sources: Hurricanes asked for Maple Leafs' Marner in Rantanen deal

Post-deadline, there are always stories seeping out … some things that don’t happen, some that did. One that continues to evolve is what happened before Mikko Rantanen was traded from Carolina to Dallas.

www.sportsnet.ca

Wow, that’s insane. That NMC of Mitch’s is either going to be the best thing in Leafs history or the worst.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I am not sure where Marner's leverage is honestly. If we are fine paying him the Rantanen contract....which everyone should be. Hell even a touch more is fine. If he doesn't like that and wants to hit the open market and gets offered 13.5 by lets say Chicago...that is the equivalent of us giving him 11.9. If he actually wants to be here let him prove it. Love the player...draw a line in the sand.

 

[Legion34]

holy shit, we asked Marner if he wanted to go to Carolina in a Rantanen deal

IMPORTANT NOTE: Leafs told Marner they want to keep him, but a trade was open to

Carolina if he didn't want to stay

Sources: Hurricanes asked for Maple Leafs' Marner in Rantanen deal

Post-deadline, there are always stories seeping out … some things that don’t happen, some that did. One that continues to evolve is what happened before Mikko Rantanen was traded from Carolina to Dallas.

www.sportsnet.ca

On second glance that’s reasonable

Mitch if you don’t want to be here. Let’s find a place for you and we will find someone who does.

 

[leafsfan5]

On second glance that’s reasonable

Mitch if you don’t want to be here. Let’s find a place for you and we will find someone who does.

yeah initially I was worried this was the Leafs wanting to get rid of him and this destroys our relationship with Marner, but it reads very reasonably

Leafs just doing their due diligence while indicating to Marner that they want to keep him

 

[Legion34]

I am infinitely more impressed with Tre now that it’s public knowledge that he asked Marner to waive.

Yep. Marner is the villain if he leaves. We asked him where he wanted to go. He said he wanted to stay.

If he wants out. LA looks about the only place he could go that’s competive without big changes.

I would ask for Clarke to give the 8th year

 

[IPS]

yeah initially I was worried this was the Leafs wanting to get rid of him and this destroys our relationship with Marner, but it reads very reasonably

Leafs just doing their due diligence while indicating to Marner that they want to keep him

Well above all there's no way you wanna create a rift between the management and the player/team at this juncture of the season when you just spent significant assets bolstering the team.

This is all just further reinforcing the narrative that Marner is strongly considering leaving via UFA.

 

[Legion34]

Ah so that's why Marner's camp had a hissy fit yesterday

Where is that seen? Link? I’m interested

 

[Dekes For Days]

you have not and will not provide evidence that the “hockey world” views Marner as better.

I did. But it doesn't matter. Believe what you want.

so we agree. Marner is a worse goal scorer

Marner is a worse goal scorer. Rantanen is a worse playmaker, and overall player.

The idea that you think that all people just combine multiple stats into a franken stat that no one else talks about but is used is hilarious.

GMs and agents use the valuable metrics available to them. The idea that you think GMs can't handle more than one stat in negotiations is hilarious.
Points combines even more point types than primary points, so your argument is weird.

“Matthews is worth more because he takes the most shots and blocks the most shots so all gms secretly have a net shot stat that they use to determine contracts”
Why not right. Shots taken and shots blocked are both on the website. Can I just say that NHL gms made up a stat and use it for contracts?

Maybe if shots and blocks were a more significant part of a player's overall impact, and it aligned with contract history. But it doesn't.

 

[Skullz]

holy shit, we asked Marner if he wanted to go to Carolina in a Rantanen deal

IMPORTANT NOTE: Leafs told Marner they want to keep him, but a trade was open to Carolina if he didn't want to stay

Sources: Hurricanes asked for Maple Leafs' Marner in Rantanen deal

Post-deadline, there are always stories seeping out … some things that don’t happen, some that did. One that continues to evolve is what happened before Mikko Rantanen was traded from Carolina to Dallas.

www.sportsnet.ca

Wow.