Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[arso40]

All players have flaws. You should probably stop watching the puck as you are missing a lot of the game.

I’m not missing a thing including the ass your making of yourself

 

[keonsbitterness]

If you look up the word "Extortion" in the English dictionary you will find the definition ..

Def - The practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

Now what would you call a player leveraging his situation as a threat to walk away for free, if the organization he plays for is not willing to "Overpay" for his services so he can make Top $$$.

You should call the police on him.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Too bad Nylander is a defensive black hole.

Matthews career regular season +142
Marner career regular season +120
Nylander career regular season +28

Matthews career playoffs +2
Marner career playoffs +10
Nylander career playoffs +1

The Marner haters don't even know how to watch the defensive zone as they are all puck watchers.

You left out JT:

Career regular season -22
Career playoffs -9

I wonder if JT being the actual "defensive black hole" has anything to do with Nylander's lower numbers?

 

[Dekes For Days]

You have just decided things and somehow think they are reality.

I haven't just decided anything. You are the one just deciding things. And appealing to clickbait quotes from media personalities. I've let data and actions decide. The action of Marner being paid more last time, and soon to be this time. The action of Rantanen being dumped. And I believe that GMs wouldn't ignore the objective data that shows Marner to be better. The contract history data shows that GMs align their contracts much more by point and primary point production than goals.

Marner had a 94pt season when he signed. He had primary assists. He had more games and points than Matthews. He got a year less.

Without getting too deep into a topic that's already been extensively discussed... Through their respective pre-signing periods, Matthews led Marner 0.98 > 0.93 in P/GP and 0.83 > 0.71 in primary P/GP. And for the record, Matthews was on a 100 point (82 primary point) pace when he signed.

 

[yubbers]

You left out JT:

Career regular season -22
Career playoffs -9

I wonder if JT being the actual "defensive black hole" has anything to do with Nylander's lower numbers?

JT doesn't make him cherry pick and be laxy on teh backcheck regularly

He's a lazy player.

 

[666]

You left out JT:

Career regular season -22
Career playoffs -9

I wonder if JT being the actual "defensive black hole" has anything to do with Nylander's lower numbers?

Actually it's the other way around. I have posted the numbers many many times check my history.

The facts are:
Marner and Nylander both do great with Matthews. +60% GF%
Marner does just as well with Tavares +60% GF%
Nylander with Tavares is a disaster. 46% GF%

This should be very obvious to anyone who watches the games.
You should probably stop watching the puck too.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The fact that JT came here on his own volition, throwing himself into the fire which he knows comes with playing in Toronto, and, accepted less as a UFA; allowed him far more latitude in my criticism on him than the others who made way more as RFAs than they would have in any other city, certainly if I were GM Nylander would have been sitting out a year or traded for a #1 D Man when he held out, as an example.

Regardless, he and Marner are both equals come playoffs. Whatever their role, whatever is asked of them, get it done. Make it to the Cup Finals and I and most of the fanfan will support re-signings. Win the Cup and I will suggest overpaying them.

As it were Marner, Matthews, Nylander were overpaid in their RFAs by an inexperienced, young GM feeling the pressure from advertisers and the fools on Sportsnet and TSN. I remember it well and I disliked it greatly. I guarantee you that these contract negotiations are the one aspect Dubas wants back.

If he had negotiated as they should have been, these players are making 1-2M less per year as they had no options, had won nothing and I think Nylander had what, a 60 point season behind him?

JT for all those unhappy with his aging, and he has adapted; he received what the market would pay and even more in some cases as he was a UFA with a track record.

I can agree that Marner and Matthews were overpaid as RFAs, but Nylander has shown that he wasn't.

I seem to recall that Dubas publicly admitted that he felt his biggest mistake was signing JT before locking up the others.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Mitch Marner should take a discount, of sorts TBD, if he is to re-sign with the Leafs.

That's my take on Marner/contract talks. His play up or down doesn't affect this much.

The fans will never forgive him if he gets greedy (and) we don't win the Stanley Cup. Not even the finals will do if he gets greedy.

 

[Leafsfan74]

may not be a bad thing IMO. the worst part is Tre just threw 2 first rounders for 2026 and 2027 so can't do any trade and the UFA class upcoming isn't that great....

Also saw on twitter that apparently marner thinks 12 AAV that rantanen just signed for is an insult and that he is seeking more than matthews with full nmc/ntc

Sometimes one has to just move on instead of bending over backwards. Marner's playoffs results are enough evidence as far as I am concerned to move on instead of giving the moon to him

I suspected they wanted to get Rat for insurance if Marner leaves.

I would prefer the two he picked up over Ratanen. If Marner leaves you try and find a replacement or work within. You don't need all flash, Matthews scored 69 goals last year and Domi was on his line for much of the year. You can't keep overpaying flashy players without bite and expect to win a Cup. The franchise is run like a Crown Corporation ffs. The blind and undying loyalty they have for some guys who haven't won much amazes me.

Besides, he knows Dubas will give him $14M a year so why not test free agency. It is a win/win for him and the team.

 

[Legion34]

I haven't just decided anything. You are the one just deciding things. And appealing to clickbait quotes from media personalities. I've let data and actions decide. The action of Marner being paid more last time, and soon to be this time. The action of Rantanen being dumped. And I believe that GMs wouldn't ignore the objective data that shows Marner to be better. The contract history data shows that GMs align their contracts much more by point and primary point production than goals.

Without getting too deep into a topic that's already been extensively discussed... Through their respective pre-signing periods, Matthews led Marner 0.98 > 0.93 in P/GP and 0.83 > 0.71 in primary P/GP. And for the record, Matthews was on a 100 point (82 primary point) pace when he signed.

So to be clear.

you made the assertion that “actual hockey people value Marner more” with zero actual quotes or evidence of
1.) what you mean by actual hockey people
2.) that ONE gm overpaid more. Than another when he didn’t have a choice. Dubas valued Matthews more than Marner. He had a chance to sign both.
Dubas overpaying doesn’t mean that the hockey world thinks that he was worth more

In your mind every single player who gets more than another is automatically more valuable than. Actual hockey people?

You have no evidence that your stats are used in negotiations at all. By anyone. Ever. You just decided that actual hockey people use your stats, because you say so? With zero evidence.

Primary points have not been referenced by any agents gms players are not recognized as a seperate category in record books or as a tiebreaker.

You also haven’t even shown that
.12 p/pg is worth 630k a year more and a year less of team control.

 

[Legion34]

I suspected they wanted to get Rat for insurance if Marner leaves.

I would prefer the two he picked up over Ratanen. If Marner leaves you try and find a replacement. You can't keep overpaying and expect to win a Cup. The franchise is run like a Crown Corporation ffs. The blind and undying loyalty they have for some guys who haven't won much amazes me.

If given the choice. I definitely want Marner for 13 over rantanen for 12 at the cost of 2 firsts 2 thirds and like minten

Marner, Carlo, Laughton is worth more than rantanen

 

[Dekes For Days]

While Marner’s playmaking, defensive contributions, and special teams impact are valuable, goal scoring remains the most important factor in winning games...especially in the playoffs, where finishing ability is at a premium. Rantanen’s ability to consistently convert on scoring chances is a major asset, and his playoff numbers reflect that.

Additionally, while Marner is an excellent play driver, Rantanen is hardly a one-dimensional scorer. He’s a strong possession player, capable of making plays and creating for teammates, while also using his size effectively to protect the puck and battle in high-danger areas—something Marner struggles with against more physical opponents. Playoff hockey is often a grind, and having a player who can both generate and finish chances at a high rate is invaluable.

At the end of the day, offensive production matters most, and Rantanen’s playoff track record speaks for itself. Being a playmaker is great, but when you’re making elite money, you need to deliver when it matters most and Rantanen has simply done that better than Marner.

Rantanen is a good player with some good qualities, and nobody said he is one dimensional, but his playoff track record is often misunderstood, and he's just not on the same level. He's closer to a Nylander. You are overvaluing the impact of goal scoring, and undervaluing the impact of playmaking, defense, etc. At the end of the day, overall quality and impact matters most.

That's not how this works, you claimed "but the actual hockey world values Marner more, and recognises that he is the better player.". It's your job to back it up. The onus is on you.

That was in response to somebody doing the same thing. I backed up my position. They didn't.

 

[Mess]

The Marner haters don't even know how to watch the defensive zone as they are all puck watchers.

Do you mean like this ??

Wonder who that #16 defensively was suppose to cover as Pastrnak skates by him on this series winning goal?

Video Review



GOTTA SEE IT : David Pastrnak Downs Maple Leafs With OT Marker In Game 7

 

[Leafsfan74]

If given the choice. I definitely want Marner for 13 over rantanen for 12 at the cost of 2 firsts 2 thirds and like minten

Marner, Carlo, Laughton is worth more than rantanen

Let us see how he does in the playoffs in year number 9 or 10 in this experiment.

Here are Ratanens career playoff stats. Compare who rises to the occasion and who doesn't:

 

[William Johnson]

There were two people that suggested what the hockey world thought. You decided to take massive issue with only one of them. Not the first one that did it. Instead, conveniently, the one you didn't want to be true. There is some evidence that Marner is more valued, and zero evidence that Rantanen is more valued. You can believe that they believe whatever if you want. It doesn't change anything.

Same. I assume they don't ignore valuable information. So I have no reason to believe that they would think anything other than what all objective information points to.

- There were two people that suggested what the hockey world thought. You decided to take massive issue with only one of them. Not the first one that did it. I decided to ask you to back up your own words. You failed to do so, and continue to fail to do so.

- Instead, conveniently, the one you didn't want to be true. You have a habit of telling other people what they think, I've noticed. I personally don't know what you or anyone else actually thinks. As to what I think on this issue, though: as I said, I have no first hand knowledge idea of what GMs think about Marner's value relative to Rantanen. I think GMs are all different so therefore suspect some may value Rantanen more and some may value Marner more, but I don't proclaim to know, unlike you.

- There is some evidence that Marner is more valued, and zero evidence that Rantanen is more valued. You've provided the 6 year-old contract as your only 'evidence' along with the supposed 'dumping' of Rantanen. Of course this is a far cry from your original statement that the 'actual hockey world' values Marner over Rantanen.

-You can believe that they believe whatever if you want. It doesn't change anything. Again, I don't really understand the expression in that first sentence, but think you're saying I'm free to think whatever I want. That's gracious of you.

- Same. I assume they don't ignore valuable information. So I have no reason to believe that they would think anything other than what all objective information points to. I believe -- no, I know -- that you and I use the word 'objective' very differently.

 

[thewave]

Do you mean like this ??

Wonder who that #16 defensively was suppose to cover as Pastrnak skates by him on this series winning goal?

View attachment 989909

View attachment 989911

Video Review



GOTTA SEE IT : David Pastrnak Downs Maple Leafs With OT Marker In Game 7

He started to skate after him, then said why bother lol game over

 

[ToneDog]

Let us see how he does in the playoffs in year number 9 or 10 in this experiment.

Here are Ratanens career playoff stats. Compare who rises to the occasion and who doesn't:

View attachment 989915

Comparing playoff Marner to Rantanen is like bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

 

[thewave]

Mitch Marner should take a discount, of sorts TBD, if he is to re-sign with the Leafs.

That's my take on Marner/contract talks. His play up or down doesn't affect this much.

The fans will never forgive him if he gets greedy (and) we don't win the Stanley Cup. Not even the finals will do if he gets greedy.

Yeah the cats kinda out of the bag. Looks like Leafs leaked it up. Next to see if he starts playing with Laughton

 

[PromisedLand]

I suspected they wanted to get Rat for insurance if Marner leaves.

I would prefer the two he picked up over Ratanen. If Marner leaves you try and find a replacement or work within. You don't need all flash, Matthews scored 69 goals last year and Domi was on his line for much of the year. You can't keep overpaying flashy players without bite and expect to win a Cup. The franchise is run like a Crown Corporation ffs. The blind and undying loyalty they have for some guys who haven't won much amazes me.

Besides, he knows Dubas will give him $14M a year so why not test free agency. It is a win/win for him and the team.

Toronto's willingness to go after Rantanen just tells us two things

1) Tre doesnt think Marner has the chops to get it done in the playoffs
or
2) Marner is being absolutely unreasonable in contract negotiations, so Tre MUST do what is right by the team and not bendover to the whims of a player. Tre has dealt with this scenario before in Calgary so he is approaching things with caution which is good to know as a Leafs fan

To me that means Tre is very open to HUGE change and thats a good thing IMO. I would say seismic changes upcoming in the summer but for now I suppose TBD

 

[Dekes For Days]

You just decided that actual hockey people use your stats, because you say so?

No, you have made assertions just because you say so. I have made assertions based on GM actions, objective information, and the data of what stats and factors contracts actually correlate with throughout cap era history.

I decided to ask you to back up your own words. You failed to do so, and continue to fail to do so.

I backed them up. The guy you ignored doing the same thing didn't.

I believe -- no, I know -- that you and I use the word 'objective' very differently.

I'm not sure why you would use it differently than what it means.

 

[Sundinisagod]

Food for thought, Treliving would rather have Rantanen over Marner + Cowen + Minten + 2 x 1st round picks.

 

[Mess]

He started to skate after him, then said why bother lol game over

Game, Set and Match over!!!

Not going to see a more lazy effort of back-checking and losing your man in defensive coverage.

Pasta and Marner start in a dead heat race as the puck is dumped into Leafs zone.

Now look how far Marner is from the play when Pasta is scoring the series clinching goal in the Leafs crease?

The problem is diehard Leaf fans are watching Mitch and the heat and criticism he takes is not unjustified, nor unwarranted when Leafs are sent golfing in round #1 again.

 

[thewave]

Toronto's willingness to go after Rantanen just tells us two things

1) Tre doesnt think Marner has the chops to get it done in the playoffs
or
2) Marner is being absolutely unreasonable in contract negotiations, so Tre MUST do what is right by the team and not bendover to the whims of a player. Tre has dealt with this scenario before in Calgary so he is approaching things with caution which is good to know as a Leafs fan

To me that means Tre is very open to HUGE change and thats a good thing IMO. I would say seismic changes upcoming in the summer but for now I suppose TBD

If it's all about overpay and NMC. Let him go.

If it's overpay but no NMC or limited. Keep him within reason.

JT should be a 1x7m

McDavid should be aware we made cap space for him if he wants.

If Tre follows the above, Leafs win.

 

[Hellcat]

So you’ve been taken before? Not interested… lol

Inherited from my uncle, he was a Prince from Nigeria.

 

[Bomber0104]

Toronto's willingness to go after Rantanen just tells us two things

1) Tre doesnt think Marner has the chops to get it done in the playoffs
or
2) Marner is being absolutely unreasonable in contract negotiations, so Tre MUST do what is right by the team and not bendover to the whims of a player. Tre has dealt with this scenario before in Calgary so he is approaching things with caution which is good to know as a Leafs fan

To me that means Tre is very open to HUGE change and thats a good thing IMO. I would say seismic changes upcoming in the summer but for now I suppose TBD

For me it’s option 2) completely.

Tre is aware we may lose him for nothing, regardless of contract offer I think the market is too much for him.

Rantanen would have been the off-ramp to ensure 100% we keep an elite winger on the books long-term.