Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[ClarkSittler]

Well first, I'm not sure where you got those numbers... If I did goals, it would be:

G/GP
Rantanen: 0.55
Nylander: 0.48
Marner: 0.36

G/GP (no EN)
Rantanen: 0.49
Nylander: 0.46
Marner: 0.34

5v5 G/60
Nylander: 1.10
Rantanen: 1.07
Marner: 0.77

PP G/60
Nylander: 2.52
Rantanen: 2.27
Marner: 1.98

Though of course, cherry picking only goals when you're comparing two goal scorers and PP shooters to a playmaker and PP QB is pretty intentionally misleading, and not representative of their respective quality or worth.

Body size isn't a factor here, Rantanen is not harder to play against, and while his playoff experiences have allowed him to put up more flashy numbers, there's more to playoff performance than that.

Well first, I'm not sure where you got those numbers... If I did goals, it would be:

G/GP
Rantanen: 0.55
Nylander: 0.48
Marner: 0.36

G/GP (no EN)
Rantanen: 0.49
Nylander: 0.46
Marner: 0.34

5v5 G/60
Nylander: 1.10
Rantanen: 1.07
Marner: 0.77

PP G/60
Nylander: 2.52
Rantanen: 2.27
Marner: 1.98

Though of course, cherry picking only goals when you're comparing two goal scorers and PP shooters to a playmaker and PP QB is pretty intentionally misleading, and not representative of their respective quality or worth.

Body size isn't a factor here, Rantanen is not harder to play against, and while his playoff experiences have allowed him to put up more flashy numbers, there's more to playoff performance than that.

While Marner’s playmaking, defensive contributions, and special teams impact are valuable, goal scoring remains the most important factor in winning games...especially in the playoffs, where finishing ability is at a premium. Rantanen’s ability to consistently convert on scoring chances is a major asset, and his playoff numbers reflect that.


Additionally, while Marner is an excellent play driver, Rantanen is hardly a one-dimensional scorer. He’s a strong possession player, capable of making plays and creating for teammates, while also using his size effectively to protect the puck and battle in high-danger areas—something Marner struggles with against more physical opponents. Playoff hockey is often a grind, and having a player who can both generate and finish chances at a high rate is invaluable.


At the end of the day, offensive production matters most, and Rantanen’s playoff track record speaks for itself. Being a playmaker is great, but when you’re making elite money, you need to deliver when it matters most and Rantanen has simply done that better than Marner.

 

[Gabriel426]

lol if Tavares really wanted to give the leafs a discount he would have signed for something around 10 million. He took advantage of his UFA status and also a potential cap increase back then too.

I don’t understand why people think JT took a discount. Bc he clearly didn’t. Even if SJ offered 13mil. JT weighted the balance with family, sponsorship…and think Leafs at 11mil is the better deal. Think at that time, it was the 2nd highest deal in the League.

Spezza and Gio took discount to play for the Leafs.

 

[Legion34]

lol if Tavares really wanted to give the leafs a discount he would have signed for something around 10 million. He took advantage of his UFA status and also a potential cap increase back then too.

No. He absolutely took a discount. He was offered 88 million by NYI and 91 by SJ. This is known and confirmed.

His agent confirmed it. He didn’t say the team for 91, but confirmed the money was offered.

That is by definition a discount. He was a 2 time hart finalist and 2nd in the league in the art Ross. JT was a more accomplished and better UFA than Marner. He hasn’t aged as well, and I can think Marner will score more than him in his 28-34 seasons.

But JT took a discount at the time.

 

[arso40]

Have you noticed it’s like ferris purposely does this every time Hes done this after the Matthew contract as well like he has to put marner in the spotlight

 

[notDatsyuk]

If you defend Mitch it's automatically assumed you dislike Nylander in here for some reason..

Not necessarily, but it does seem that some of Marner's biggest fans feel the best way to support him is to try to discredit Nylander. Of course the same applies to some of Nylander's biggest fans, although it seems to be to a lesser extent.

 

[Gabriel426]

It sounds and feels like the leafs know it too. I won’t say for sure he’s gone, but the longer it goes, the more I feel like he’s going to test. He might go out and see what’s out there and come back and take 12 or 12.5. But I think Marner has to decide, you can go to Chicago and take 13 but that team would suck.

Honestly my dark horse is he ends up in San Jose, they have an owner who is ready to spend, they have an up and coming team. Thornton and Marleau played there and he looks up to them. They just traded Zetterlund.. Feels like a match

I agree esp since Leafs went hard on Ranta.
As there is no way Leafs can afford Ranta, MM and Knies on the team comes Sept unless they fill in the bottom 6 with 950k players.

SJ and Chicago are attractive and both teams will and can overpay for MM. I can see both of them paying MM 14mil

 

[ToneDog]

I agree with you and that’s why I really don’t think MM wants to be back bc he knows Leafs can’t offer a number that he believes he can get.

With the cap rising and Tavares coming off the books, Leafs can offer Mitch the most money. It seems they have set a stake in the ground at $13m which is more than fair market value IMO for a guy who will be lucky to score 25 goals through the lifespan of the contract. He pulled the same shit his last negotiations. Dubas offered the Tavares deal in June and it was only after somebody leaked the money he was turning down, that they softened and took the deal, just before the start of training camp.

If he wants to stay, Ferris is not doing him any favours.

 

[Stephen]

Based on this information, and the Leafs vigorous pursuit of Rantanen I think we should assume they are ready to turn the page on Mitch Marner, whether by design or just the player showing signs he wants to try something else and they can’t achieve a meeting of the minds.

 

[Stephen]

I agree esp since Leafs went hard on Ranta.
As there is no way Leafs can afford Ranta, MM and Knies on the team comes Sept unless they fill in the bottom 6 with 950k players.

SJ and Chicago are attractive and both teams will and can overpay for MM. I can see both of them paying MM 14mil

SJ and Chicago would be great places for Mitch to hide... Those teams would be happy to have his regular season production and success and they are years and years away from having any postseason expectations.

 

[Gabriel426]

With the cap rising and Tavares coming off the books, Leafs can offer Mitch the most money. It seems they have set a stake in the ground at $13m which is more than fair market value IMO for a guy who will be lucky to score 25 goals through the lifespan of the contract. He pulled the same shit his last negotiations. Dubas offered the Tavares deal in June and it was only after somebody leaked the money he was turning down, that they softened and took the deal, just before training camp.

I think if it is 13mil, he would have been signed. As that would make him the 3rd highest paid player in the league. As there is no way he will get a contract from the Leafs that pays him higher than AM and if he is delusional enough to think he is close to Drai, he needs help.

Think it is more around 12mil and unlike Dubas, Tre is drawing a hard line at that number.

 

[francis246]

Based on this information, and the Leafs vigorous pursuit of Rantanen I think we should assume they are ready to turn the page on Mitch Marner, whether by design or just the player showing signs he wants to try something else and they can’t achieve a meeting of the minds.

Already posted in this thread by someone, that tweet misrepresented what Mirtle said

 

[notDatsyuk]

Although I think I know what you're suggesting here, I'd still like to clarify, if you don't mind.

When I asked you for your evidence for your statement about what the 'actual hockey world' thought of Marner vs Rantanen, you referred to GMs' actions. When I asked about which specific actions, you've now referred to 'contracts, for one'. So, other than Marner's current contract, do you have any other GM actions that tell you that Marner is valued higher than Rantanen?

Or is it just the one contract, signed almost 6 years ago, that tells us what the 'actual hockey world' thinks and how they currently value these two players?

The only support he has supplied for his favourite player is a contract (which many posters have stated is an overpayment) signed by his favourite GM, so there just might be a tiny bit of bias involved.

 

[Mess]

They should have done their best to move him for Rantanen. Canes would have paid Marner and Rantanen would have signed with the Leafs. Golf season starts earlier in North Carolina which I imagine would be a good selling point for Mitch.

If you look up the word "Hypocrite" in the English dictionary you will find the definition ..

Def - A person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives.

Now what would you call a player who claims to want to be a "Maple Leaf for Life" and refuses to waive his NMC (no movement clause) to prevent getting traded, and then refuses to sign a contract at market value for his services only, to walk himself to free agency and then depart for TOP $$$?

If you look up the word "Extortion" in the English dictionary you will find the definition ..

Def - The practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

Now what would you call a player leveraging his situation as a threat to walk away for free, if the organization he plays for is not willing to "Overpay" for his services so he can make Top $$$.

"Actions speak louder than words" and Marner is not fooling many people here, as to his REAL MOTIVES as most people see through his thinly wailed disguise of "loyalty to the Leafs" as nothing more than a ploy to enrich himself at the expense of the organization. He did it already on his current contact taking advantage of a clueless naive greenhorn GM, so there is no reason to believe his agent Darren Farris and Mitch are not going by the same playbook again.

This time lets see if Leafs current experienced GM lets himself get played or extorted, or he simply walks away, knowing he made a fair offer, and lets Marner expose himself to his true colours.

 

[arso40]

Too bad Nylander is a defensive black hole.

Matthews career regular season +142
Marner career regular season +120
Nylander career regular season +28

Matthews career playoffs +2
Marner career playoffs +10
Nylander career playoffs +1

The Marner haters don't even know how to watch the defensive zone as they are all puck watchers.

I must admit I do love the blind admiration but fyi the reason why people don’t like marner is all the contract talks anytime someone else is in the headlines Hes soft he disappears he doesn’t perform how he’s paid which isn’t his fault we paid him for potential sadly that potential hasn’t been reached 6.9 Willy was on par with 10.89 marner which should never happen when you line up beside a franchise center but anyways what do I know

 

[notDatsyuk]

This is a joke. Marner is an elite player period.

The conversation is not about whether he is a good player (he is) but whether his apparent contract demands are commiserate with his performance, particularly in the playoffs.

He could be the best player in the world (he isn't) but his contract can still only be so high before it becomes untenable.

 

[666]

I must admit I do love the blind admiration ..

Unfortunately no one loves the blind hate.

 

[HolyCrap]

1.) you were the one who said actual hockey people value Marner more than rantanen. You have not provided a single peice of evidence or quotes as to anyone saying Marner is worth more in contracts than rantanen.
CJ is one. You have none.

2.) you have not provided a single peice of evidence of anyone who has every been involved in hockey at any actual level of management/contract negations, awards, valuations stating that primary points are considered at all really. Definitely not to the level of goals.

You have just decided things and somehow think they are reality. It’s so odd.
Marner had a 94pt season when he signed. He had primary assists. He had more games and points than Matthews. He got a year less.

Even in dubas press conferences he never Once ever referenced primary points. No one has. You may think rantanen is a “more valuable player” ok. Sure. I can think Tanev is more valuable than Rielly.

Contracts are a completely different thing. There is no evidence that a Tanev would be paid like a Rielly.

Provide one piece of evidence. Ever that “actual NHL people” consider the factors you are presenting

You will never get an actual answer or have a logical conversation with that poster. Trust me.

 

[arso40]

Unfortunately no one loves the blind hate.

It’s not blind your eyes are closed being in love with someone can act as a blindfold to their flaws

 

[ClarkSittler]

Contracts, for one. What evidence do you have that GMs are ignoring the valuable information that some here choose to? And again, it's interesting that you directed this question at me, and not the individual that first made the claim about what the hockey world thinks.

That's not how this works, you claimed "but the actual hockey world values Marner more, and recognises that he is the better player.". It's your job to back it up. The onus is on you.

 

[ClarkSittler]

This nonsense still taking place.

Marner is an elite player period.

Okay let's say Marner is an elite player, what are you paying him this summer? More than Matthews? $14 million a year?

 

[arso40]

That's not how this works, you claimed "but the actual hockey world values Marner more, and recognises that he is the better player.". It's your job to back it up. The onus is on you.

Come on now no marnernite ever does this it’s impossible to, to do so would display the sheer ignorance that it takes to think marner is flawless

 

[Divine]

I agree with you and that’s why I really don’t think MM wants to be back bc he knows Leafs can’t offer a number that he believes he can get.

Yup, and the moment July 1st hits he's no longer eligible for that 8th year. He's ego won't let him come back even if he wants to because he would have lost money in the process.

 

[Leafsfan74]

No. He absolutely took a discount. He was offered 88 million by NYI and 91 by SJ. This is known and confirmed.

His agent confirmed it. He didn’t say the team for 91, but confirmed the money was offered.

That is by definition a discount. He was a 2 time hart finalist and 2nd in the league in the art Ross. JT was a more accomplished and better UFA than Marner. He hasn’t aged as well, and I can think Marner will score more than him in his 28-34 seasons.

But JT took a discount at the time.

The fact that JT came here on his own volition, throwing himself into the fire which he knows comes with playing in Toronto, and, accepted less as a UFA; allowed him far more latitude in my criticism on him than the others who made way more as RFAs than they would have in any other city, certainly if I were GM Nylander would have been sitting out a year or traded for a #1 D Man when he held out, as an example.

Regardless, he and Marner are both equals come playoffs. Whatever their role, whatever is asked of them, get it done. Make it to the Cup Finals and I and most of the fanbase will support re-signings. Win the Cup and I will suggest overpaying them.

As it were Marner, Matthews, Nylander were overpaid in their RFAs by an inexperienced, young GM feeling the pressure from advertisers and the fools on Sportsnet and TSN. I remember it well and I disliked it greatly. I guarantee you that these contract negotiations are the one aspect Dubas wants back.

If he had negotiated as they should have been, these players are making 1-2M less per year as they had no options, had won nothing and I think Nylander had what, a 60 point season behind him?

JT for all those unhappy with his aging, and he has adapted; he received what the market would pay and even more in some cases as he was a UFA with a track record.

 

[666]

It’s not blind your eyes are closed being in love with someone can act as a blindfold to their flaws

All players have flaws. You should probably stop watching the puck as you are missing a lot of the game.

 

[PromisedLand]

Based on this information, and the Leafs vigorous pursuit of Rantanen I think we should assume they are ready to turn the page on Mitch Marner, whether by design or just the player showing signs he wants to try something else and they can’t achieve a meeting of the minds.

may not be a bad thing IMO. the worst part is Tre just threw 2 first rounders for 2026 and 2027 so can't do any trade and the UFA class upcoming isn't that great....

Also saw on twitter that apparently marner thinks 12 AAV that rantanen just signed for is an insult and that he is seeking more than matthews with full nmc/ntc

Sometimes one has to just move on instead of bending over backwards. Marner's playoffs results are enough evidence as far as I am concerned to move on instead of giving the moon to him