Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Yet Again

[Confucius]

Half the board can’t stand the guy

Well if he can’t give a little to help us out, let him go. He doesn’t deserve more than Rantanen and Rantanen went for full value there was no thought of giving Dallas a discount. We will never win if we keep paying our own players UFA rates and being the highest UFA bidder at that.
Rantanen 12, Pastranak 11.25, both better than Mitch

 

[666]

Interesting.

Nylander regular season (665 games) sh% 12.9%
Nylander playoffs (54 games) sh% : 12.0%
Nylander last 3 games of playoffs in last 4 seasons (12 games) sh% 13.33%

The haters don't even know why they hate Nylander.

Too bad Nylander is a defensive black hole.

Matthews career regular season +142
Marner career regular season +120
Nylander career regular season +28

Matthews career playoffs +2
Marner career playoffs +10
Nylander career playoffs +1

The Marner haters don't even know how to watch the defensive zone as they are all puck watchers.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Marner will probably get more if he signs here due to taxes. He is less valuable in terms of contract due to less goals/raw point totals. But the value is close enough that it probably doesn’t outweigh the massive no state tax advantages.
No one said Marner should be getting paid more than rantanen based on performance. They Brought up Marner as a pk player. CJ on his own podcast said Marner by value should slot in as lower aav than rantanen in contract evaluation.
There is zero evidence that primary assist count the same amount as goals in contracts.
Matthews got paid as a 60 goal scorer. Not a 100 pt player. Thats why he deserves more than. Marner and got paid more than Marner
If primary assists count the same as goals
Why did dubas over pay Matthews?
Matthews got more money on less term than Marner despite lower points/primary assists, pk time
So which did he overpay? Has to be one of them.

Marner is more valuable in terms of contracts, and he will get a bigger contract anywhere. I don't really care what CJ says on his podcast. There is zero evidence that goals are more valuable than primary assists, in either actual game impact or contracts. Goals correlate with contract history quite a bit worse than both point and primary point production.

Matthews got paid as one of the top point and primary point producers in the league and cap era history that also had excellent defensive play. And for their previous contracts, Matthews was a better point and primary point producer through his pre-signing period than Marner, so your question is fundamentally wrong.

Power play shooter Willy gets moved on to pp2 the year we went to second round and the other year first round exits Willy was playing down low marner was on the half wall nice try

...I'm not really sure what you're saying or even trying to argue here?

 

[Gabriel426]

So if you want to believe Kyper who Bourne says is connected to the Marner family, the Leafs offered Cowan, Minten and two firsts for Rantanen and Matthews money to Rantanen. The Canes fearing meeting Ranta and the Leafs in the playoffs, decided to send him to Dallas. Tells you who they think is the better player. Of course in this case the Marner PR crew will twist themselves into a pretzel and tell you Kyper is full of shit.

I don’t believe that Kyper thing one bit.
1. I highly doubt Canes is afraid of meeting Leafs in the playoffs as that would be ECF, something the Leafs had not done since Facebook was popularized
2. Unless Canes got other trades prepared, what can the picks and prospects do to help them this playoffs?
3. Leafs is not offering AM’s money to Ranta

 

[Gabriel426]

Marner is terrific, there’s no denying that. I think what drives this boards frustration with him is that despite being a hometown boy who professes his love for the leafs, he has never given any semblance of a discount. Once again, (albeit judging only from rumours per Mirtle), it seems like he is chasing the bag. Coupled with his lack of offensive output in the playoffs, it’s not a shocker that people have soured on him. Remember that Marner was the most popular leaf on his entry level contract.

This contractual news is unfortunate. I would have loved to resign him at a reasonable rate. There in way in which we improve if he walks for nothing. That being said, we cannot allow ourselves to be gouged continuously on contracts.

I know we all want to say that Rantanen taking 12 means Marner should get 12 or less. This is unlikely. He will make the argument for different taxes, and for having more offensive output than Nylander, who is at 11.5.

I think we could justifiably get up to 12.75 by 8. I wouldn’t love it, but it would be okay. I’m not sure we can do 13 with the Rantanen contract though, and I wish Marner would realize that if he gave the team a discount, public goodwill would immediately pivot back to him

You went on about MM never giving a favor to the Leafs and ended with justifying MM signing at 12.75mil, while Rantanen signed for 12mil less than 24 hrs ago three contending teams didn’t offered more than 12mil.
How’s that make any sense?

 

[Divine]

 

[thewave]

Yep. All about the money. Absolutely

 

[Mess]

If Marner had been drafted 3rd overall by Phoenix instead of 4th overall to the Leafs, and he was playing all these years out of the GTA spotlight would people even know who he was, because statistically playing with lesser players and not Rocket Richard winners

Yep. All about the money. Absolutely

Leafs' Push for Rantanen Reportedly About Mitch Marner for Not Negotiating in Good Faith​

Leafs' Push for Rantanen Reportedly About Mitch Marner for Not Negotiating in Good Faith

The Maple Leafs attempting to acquire Mikko Rantanen reportedly came down to their frustrations with Mitch Marner's refusal to negotiate a reasonable extension.

www.mapleleafsdaily.com

The Maple Leafs attempting to acquire​

Following a very frantic and busy deadline day, Sportsnet's Nick Kypreos reported the Leafs were very close to acquiring Rantanen before he was dealt to the Dallas Stars.

Although they were unable to land Rantanen, the fact the Leafs were heavily involved in the sweepstakes for the Stanley Cup Champion should be a clear indication there is real uncertainty about Marner's future with the Leafs.​

Leafs GM Brad Treliving has no issue making seismic changes, as we saw when he traded Matthew Tkachuk to the Florida Panthers.​

On a deadline edition of "The Leaf Report," Mirtle revealed that the Leafs are frustrated with how negotiations are going.​

"I think the Leafs are very frustrated with where that's at. They really wanted to get it done. They feel they made really good strong faith offers and went pretty far. I'm pretty sure they've offered more than what Rantanen signed for. I think that's going right down to July 1 and I think Marner is going to have to decide if he wants to come back and take less or get as much as he possibly can on the open market."​

 

[ToneDog]

I don’t believe that Kyper thing one bit.
1. I highly doubt Canes is afraid of meeting Leafs in the playoffs as that would be ECF, something the Leafs had not done since Facebook was popularized
2. Unless Canes got other trades prepared, what can the picks and prospects do to help them this playoffs?
3. Leafs is not offering AM’s money to Ranta

Some do and some do not. Check this guy out:

Yup I believe this 1000%. If what Kyper said is true with what the leafs offered the canes, the leafs

moved on from Mitch. If it’s not true then they are using the media to send a message to this loser and his dad. I’m done with this fk. He can go somewhere else.

 

[Divine]

If Marner had been drafted 3rd overall by Phoenix instead of 4th overall to the Leafs, and he was playing all these years out of the GTA spotlight would people even know who he was, because statistically playing with lesser players and not Rocket Richard winners

Leafs' Push for Rantanen Reportedly About Mitch Marner for Not Negotiating in Good Faith​

Leafs' Push for Rantanen Reportedly About Mitch Marner for Not Negotiating in Good Faith

The Maple Leafs attempting to acquire Mikko Rantanen reportedly came down to their frustrations with Mitch Marner's refusal to negotiate a reasonable extension.

www.mapleleafsdaily.com

​

The Maple Leafs attempting to acquire​

Following a very frantic and busy deadline day, Sportsnet's Nick Kypreos reported the Leafs were very close to acquiring Rantanen before he was dealt to the Dallas Stars.

Although they were unable to land Rantanen, the fact the Leafs were heavily involved in the sweepstakes for the Stanley Cup Champion should be a clear indication there is real uncertainty about Marner's future with the Leafs.​

It's clear that Mitch wants to move on despite some fans gobbling up his pre & post-game interviews talking about how he's from here and he loves it here.

He loves it here on the condition that we outbid every team in the NHL.

 

[ToneDog]

Yep. All about the money. Absolutely

To go after all the money a second time after all the grief he is taking for his last contract is mind boggling. Why put extra pressure on yourself in the playoffs when you melt like a snowman in July when the pressure increases?

 

[Dekes For Days]

These are your words, not someone else's, and not the previous poster's

There were two people that suggested what the hockey world thought. You decided to take massive issue with only one of them. Not the first one that did it. Instead, conveniently, the one you didn't want to be true. There is some evidence that Marner is more valued, and zero evidence that Rantanen is more valued. You can believe that they believe whatever if you want. It doesn't change anything.

I also don't know why a GM would ignore 'valuable information' and assume they don't.

Same. I assume they don't ignore valuable information. So I have no reason to believe that they would think anything other than what all objective information points to.

 

[Gabriel426]

Some do and some do not. Check this guy out:

Yup I believe this 1000%. If what Kyper said is true with what the leafs offered the canes, the leafs

moved on from Mitch. If it’s not true then they are using the media to send a message to this loser and his dad. I’m done with this fk. He can go somewhere else.

i meant I believe Leafs went hard after Rantanen and it shows Leafs is looking for MM replacement
But I don’t believe Canes rejected that Leafs offer bc Canes had no immediate help from that Leafs offer. Also I don’t believe Leafs would offer AM’s money to Ranta. I absolutely don’t believe Canes is afraid to meet Leafs with Ranta in the playoffs.

I still believe that Canes insisted on Knies or to some extent even Willie. But Leafs said no.

 

[thewave]

To go after all the money a second time after all the grief he is taking for his last contract is mind boggling. Why put extra pressure on yourself in the playoffs when you melt like a snowman in July when the pressure increases?

They need to cut bait and move on. Let's see if we can win this year and let him go if it doesn't make sense

 

[ToneDog]

i meant I believe Leafs went hard after Rantanen and it shows Leafs is looking for MM replacement
But I don’t believe Canes rejected that Leafs offer bc Canes had no immediate help from that Leafs offer. Also I don’t believe Leafs would offer AM’s money to Ranta. I absolutely don’t believe Canes is afraid to meet Leafs with Ranta in the playoffs.

I still believe that Canes insisted on Knies or to some extent even Willie. But Leafs said no.

Imagine losing the Leafs led by Rantanen in the playoffs. They won't get the grief the Leafs would but they did not want to cross that bridge IMO. It makes sense that would want to avoid it if they could.

I doubt Sakic ever imagined or is happy Ranta ending up in Dallas when he traded him out east.

 

[Legion34]

Marner is more valuable in terms of contracts, and he will get a bigger contract anywhere. I don't really care what CJ says on his podcast. There is zero evidence that goals are more valuable than primary assists, in either actual game impact or contracts. Goals correlate with contract history quite a bit worse than both point and primary point production.

Matthews got paid as one of the top point and primary point producers in the league and cap era history that also had excellent defensive play. And for their previous contracts, Matthews was a better point and primary point producer through his pre-signing period than Marner, so your question is fundamentally wrong.

...I'm not really sure what you're saying or even trying to argue here?

1.) you were the one who said actual hockey people value Marner more than rantanen. You have not provided a single peice of evidence or quotes as to anyone saying Marner is worth more in contracts than rantanen.
CJ is one. You have none.

2.) you have not provided a single peice of evidence of anyone who has every been involved in hockey at any actual level of management/contract negations, awards, valuations stating that primary points are considered at all really. Definitely not to the level of goals.

You have just decided things and somehow think they are reality. It’s so odd.
Marner had a 94pt season when he signed. He had primary assists. He had more games and points than Matthews. He got a year less.

Even in dubas press conferences he never Once ever referenced primary points. No one has. You may think rantanen is a “more valuable player” ok. Sure. I can think Tanev is more valuable than Rielly.

Contracts are a completely different thing. There is no evidence that a Tanev would be paid like a Rielly.

Provide one piece of evidence. Ever that “actual NHL people” consider the factors you are presenting

 

[ToneDog]

They need to cut bait and move on. Let's see if we can win this year and let him go if it doesn't make sense

They should have done their best to move him for Rantanen. Canes would have paid Marner and Rantanen would have signed with the Leafs. Golf season starts earlier in North Carolina which I imagine would be a good selling point for Mitch.

 

[Gabriel426]

Imagine losing the Leafs led by Rantanen in the playoffs. They won't get the grief the Leafs would but they did not want to cross that bridge IMO. It makes sense that would want to avoid it if they could.

I doubt Sakic ever imagined or is happy Ranta ending up in Dallas when he traded him out east.

Point is I don’t think any teams in the East think Leafs can make it to the ECF, lol.

 

[francis246]

I'd bet it all there have been several contracts already offered. His agent likes to go to the wire and thinks the rising cap is a factor. I'd be stunned if 12 mil wasn't already offered, just look at our internal salaries, slightly above Willie with a bigger cap, it's just baked in. Again, I don't buy for a second the Leafs haven't tried hard, perhaps they've backed off now because Ferris clearly wants to hit July 1, but don't confuse that with Tre not making offers, they clearly have.

Agreed and we’ve heard such reporting from Chris Johnson who IMO I find to be one of the more reliable insiders.

Marner is terrific, there’s no denying that. I think what drives this boards frustration with him is that despite being a hometown boy who professes his love for the leafs, he has never given any semblance of a discount. Once again, (albeit judging only from rumours per Mirtle), it seems like he is chasing the bag. Coupled with his lack of offensive output in the playoffs, it’s not a shocker that people have soured on him. Remember that Marner was the most popular leaf on his entry level contract.

This contractual news is unfortunate. I would have loved to resign him at a reasonable rate. There in way in which we improve if he walks for nothing. That being said, we cannot allow ourselves to be gouged continuously on contracts.

I know we all want to say that Rantanen taking 12 means Marner should get 12 or less. This is unlikely. He will make the argument for different taxes, and for having more offensive output than Nylander, who is at 11.5.

I think we could justifiably get up to 12.75 by 8. I wouldn’t love it, but it would be okay. I’m not sure we can do 13 with the Rantanen contract though, and I wish Marner would realize that if he gave the team a discount, public goodwill would immediately pivot back to him

Your first paragraph is exactly what is wrong with people on this board and why I have said, people are delusional. How can you realistically expect any athlete to take a discount. I’ve said this so many times, there is so much resentment because he’s the hometown guy and he didn’t take a discount, but why should he? Matthew’s clearly didn’t. Why should it be all on Marner’s shoulders to take less to satisfy the fans. It’s a selfish ask from the fanbase and it’s delusional to expect any athlete to do so.

Playoff stats argument I think is reasonable and he deserves criticism for it, but expecting a player to take less just because it’s his hometown is delusion at the highest peak, especially since the culture of the team from the top hasn’t been that.

 

[Legion34]

Marner is more valuable in terms of contracts, and he will get a bigger contract anywhere. I don't really care what CJ says on his podcast. There is zero evidence that goals are more valuable than primary assists, in either actual game impact or contracts. Goals correlate with contract history quite a bit worse than both point and primary point production.

Matthews got paid as one of the top point and primary point producers in the league and cap era history that also had excellent defensive play. And for their previous contracts, Matthews was a better point and primary point producer through his pre-signing period than Marner, so your question is fundamentally wrong.

...I'm not really sure what you're saying or even trying to argue here?

1.) you were the one who said actual hockey people value Marner more than rantanen. You have not provided a single peice of evidence or quotes as to anyone saying Marner is worth more in contracts than rantanen.
CJ is one. You have none.

2.) you have not provided a single peice of evidence of anyone who has every been involved in hockey at any actual level of management/contract negations, awards, valuations stating that primary points are considered at all really. Definitely not to the level of goals.

You have just decided things and somehow think they are reality. It’s so odd.
Marner had a 94pt season when he signed. He had primary assists. He had more games and points than Matthews. He got a year less.

Even in dubas press conferences he never Once ever referenced primary points. No one has. You may think rantanen is a “more valuable player” ok. Sure. I can think Tanev is more valuable than Rielly.

Contracts are a completely different thing. There is no evidence that a Tanev would be paid like a Rielly.

Provide one piece of evidence. Ever that “actual NHL people” consider the factors you are presenting

Agreed and we’ve heard such reporting from Chris Johnson who IMO I find to be one of the more reliable insiders.

Your first paragraph is exactly what is wrong with people on this board and why I have said, people are delusional. How can you realistically expect any athlete to take a discount. I’ve said this so many times, there is so much resentment because he’s the hometown guy and he didn’t take a discount, but why should he? Matthew’s clearly didn’t. Why should it be all on Marner’s shoulders to take less to satisfy the fans. It’s a selfish ask from the fanbase and it’s delusional to expect any athlete to do so.

Playoff stats argument I think is reasonable and he deserves criticism for it, but expecting a player to take less just because it’s his hometown is delusion at the highest peak, especially since the culture of the team from the top hasn’t been that.

I mean. Tavares did

 

[ToneDog]

Marner is terrific, there’s no denying that. I think what drives this boards frustration with him is that despite being a hometown boy who professes his love for the leafs, he has never given any semblance of a discount. Once again, (albeit judging only from rumours per Mirtle), it seems like he is chasing the bag. Coupled with his lack of offensive output in the playoffs, it’s not a shocker that people have soured on him. Remember that Marner was the most popular leaf on his entry level contract.

This contractual news is unfortunate. I would have loved to resign him at a reasonable rate. There in way in which we improve if he walks for nothing. That being said, we cannot allow ourselves to be gouged continuously on contracts.

I know we all want to say that Rantanen taking 12 means Marner should get 12 or less. This is unlikely. He will make the argument for different taxes, and for having more offensive output than Nylander, who is at 11.5.

I think we could justifiably get up to 12.75 by 8. I wouldn’t love it, but it would be okay. I’m not sure we can do 13 with the Rantanen contract though, and I wish Marner would realize that if he gave the team a discount, public goodwill would immediately pivot back to him

He doesn't have to give a discount. He just needs to take fair market value. I said $12.5m, $12.8m max. He wants $13-14m if you believe the insiders. Leafs set their ceiling at $13m.

If it is not about the money and he wants to leave he should have asked Tre to trade him and waive his NMC. Why risk shitting your pants in the playoffs before becoming a UFA on July 1?

 

[francis246]

It's clear that Mitch wants to move on despite some fans gobbling up his pre & post-game interviews talking about how he's from here and he loves it here.

He loves it here on the condition that we outbid every team in the NHL.

Is the world black and white? This is also something I can’t comprehend. Both can be true. You can love where you are at, but also be ready for a move. Who wouldn’t love being from Toronto and getting to don the Maple Leaf, but we’ve heard it from lots of players it’s also a lot on GTA guys. Both Schenn and O’Reilly refused to waive to come here.. I wonder why?

 

[francis246]

1.) you were the one who said actual hockey people value Marner more than rantanen. You have not provided a single peice of evidence or quotes as to anyone saying Marner is worth more in contracts than rantanen.
CJ is one. You have none.

2.) you have not provided a single peice of evidence of anyone who has every been involved in hockey at any actual level of management/contract negations, awards, valuations stating that primary points are considered at all really. Definitely not to the level of goals.

You have just decided things and somehow think they are reality. It’s so odd.
Marner had a 94pt season when he signed. He had primary assists. He had more games and points than Matthews. He got a year less.

Even in dubas press conferences he never Once ever referenced primary points. No one has. You may think rantanen is a “more valuable player” ok. Sure. I can think Tanev is more valuable than Rielly.

Contracts are a completely different thing. There is no evidence that a Tanev would be paid like a Rielly.

Provide one piece of evidence. Ever that “actual NHL people” consider the factors you are presenting


I mean. Tavares did

lol if Tavares really wanted to give the leafs a discount he would have signed for something around 10 million. He took advantage of his UFA status and also a potential cap increase back then too.

 

[Gabriel426]

Agreed and we’ve heard such reporting from Chris Johnson who IMO I find to be one of the more reliable insiders.

Your first paragraph is exactly what is wrong with people on this board and why I have said, people are delusional. How can you realistically expect any athlete to take a discount. I’ve said this so many times, there is so much resentment because he’s the hometown guy and he didn’t take a discount, but why should he? Matthew’s clearly didn’t. Why should it be all on Marner’s shoulders to take less to satisfy the fans. It’s a selfish ask from the fanbase and it’s delusional to expect any athlete to do so.

Playoff stats argument I think is reasonable and he deserves criticism for it, but expecting a player to take less just because it’s his hometown is delusion at the highest peak, especially since the culture of the team from the top hasn’t been that.

I agree with you and that’s why I really don’t think MM wants to be back bc he knows Leafs can’t offer a number that he believes he can get.

 

[francis246]

I agree with you and that’s why I really don’t think MM wants to be back bc he knows Leafs can’t offer a number that he believes he can get.

It sounds and feels like the leafs know it too. I won’t say for sure he’s gone, but the longer it goes, the more I feel like he’s going to test. He might go out and see what’s out there and come back and take 12 or 12.5. But I think Marner has to decide, you can go to Chicago and take 13 but that team would suck.

Honestly my dark horse is he ends up in San Jose, they have an owner who is ready to spend, they have an up and coming team. Thornton and Marleau played there and he looks up to them. They just traded Zetterlund.. Feels like a match