Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[AustonMarner]

Not using caps is horrible grammar btw And, I didn't even read what you said, nor have I read this train wreck thread all summer. I just saw the thread at the top and just figured he didn't answer something correctly, guess I was right. Cheers.


I have that one on ignore. I'll note I didn't defend him once since the playoffs. I'll enjoy him this year with an eye on the real prize, ditto 34.

Thanks Batman... hope you have fun cheering for the Gotham City Gophers this upcoming season... I'll call Alfred and ask him to double-check if he remembered to cut out the eye holes in your Batsuit
cheers back

 

[Gary Nylund]

You flip flop between pumping his tires and calling him mental fragile every week LOL. No one does it better than you

I notice you ignored my questions about why you are quoting me and criticizing me for things I never said. Well OK, if you got nothing to say that's fine but you'd have done better to just STFU instead of pivoting to criticize me for flip flopping. Going on offence isn't always the best defence, sometimes it's better to just accept that what you said made no sense, leave it at that and cut your losses.

What you call flip flopping is me basing my opinions on how players play, not on whether they're my adopted sons or not like many people here seem to do. Marner played great this season and I said so but when he played like crap against Florida, I have no problem saying that either. It's called being objective, my opinion on Marner going forward will be based on how he plays and nothing else which means I will no doubt praise him at times, and criticize him at other times. You seem to have a problem with this which hard for me to understand as trying to be objective is the only thing that makes sense to me but whatever, you do you.

Some people like/hate certain players, and they only post positive/negative things about them which makes their posts 100% predictable, and therefore a waste of space. I on the other hand don't play favorites, I call it like I see it, I understand that player evaluations change over time, I watch and adjust my assessment of them accordingly and if that's beyond your comprehension, that's entirely your problem..

 

[francis246]

I notice you ignored my questions about why you are quoting me and criticizing me for things I never said. Well OK, if you got nothing to say that's fine but you'd have done better to just STFU instead of pivoting to criticize me for flip flopping. Going on offence isn't always the best defence, sometimes it's better to just accept that what you said made no sense, leave it at that and cut your losses.

What you call flip flopping is me basing my opinions on how players play, not on whether they're my adopted sons or not like many people here seem to do. Marner played great this season and I said so but when he played like crap against Florida, I have no problem saying that either. It's called being objective, my opinion on Marner going forward will be based on how he plays and nothing else which means I will no doubt praise him at times, and criticize him at other times. You seem to have a problem with this which hard for me to understand as trying to be objective is the only thing that makes sense to me but whatever, you do you.

Some people like/hate certain players, and they only post positive/negative things about them which makes their posts 100% predictable, and therefore a waste of space. I on the other hand don't play favorites, I call it like I see it, I understand that player evaluations change over time, I watch and adjust my assessment of them accordingly and if that's beyond your comprehension, that's entirely your problem..

Gary I hate to break it to you but you’re far from objective when it comes to Marner.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Gary I hate to break it to you but you’re far from objective when it comes to Marner.

Don't worry about "breaking it", you haven't been making much sense lately so it's not like your opinion carries much weight with me anyway.

 

[Maple Leaf]

no point in having marner unless he scores in the playoffs

 

[sunstersun]

no point in having marner unless he scores in the playoffs

also scoring relevant points late in the series.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Only in Toronto would m'asses' of seemingly low leveled supposed Leaf pendants desire to trade a home grown, most complete, all star, likely hall of fame, makes every teammate better player for an imaginary uprade on RD or salary cap purposes... you all should be giving your head a shake or two or three...

lmfao @ the absolute bafoonary imho

this thread is the antithesis of why Habs and Bruins and league wide fans talk $hit about Leafs fans...

Please one person who voted for 'Trade Marner' give even ONE trade scenario that;

1) makes leafs better (chance at cup)
2) saves cap
3) why trade works for both teams

This thread is telling me, without telling me who can critically watch and analyze hockey

We weren't talking about him, we were talking about Marner.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Are you calling me boorish or a complainer for having a contrary idea to yours? or do you think you've found some clever loophole to passively bash and insult me on the sly??

You've shown your ignorance by commenting on something while admitting " I could scroll back, but why would you" (*horrible grammar by the way ; )

You can respond to me directly next time... if you're willing to have a knowledgeable and civil conversation... cheers

Discuss the topic please - stop with the personal insults, as they do nothing but show you don't have a valid rebuttal.

 

[ZEBROA]

This was fun... and scary at the same time.

Something tells me he will be great this playoffs. Its time. Happy days when we just "know" we will be in the playoffs if nothing strange happens.

 

[Racer88]

They know they need to be better, it goes without saying.
Not every word needs to be analyzed to death or dumb down enough so everyone can understand.

Do you think they really know they need to be better as individuals or think they are just fine and it’s others that are the problem? Marners body language and tone would indicate the latter

 

[thewave]

Do you think they really know they need to be better as individuals or think they are just fine and it’s others that are the problem? Marners body language and tone would indicate the latter

Marner shrugs accountability at every turn. The guy is an absolute soft shell with an egomaniac if not narcissist inside. Narcis always shrug responsibility and always deflect blame and always think they are the best. Did you once hear him say that was in me I need to be better. Even after that aborted game 3 vs FL.

There is a reason 68% of people here want to trade him for help on D and depth. He is a playoff fader when the going gets tough.

 

[ACC1224]

Do you think they really know they need to be better as individuals or think they are just fine and it’s others that are the problem? Marners body language and tone would indicate the latter

Look into his eyes, that's where the truth lies.

 

[francis246]

Marner shrugs accountability at every turn. The guy is an absolute soft shell with an egomaniac if not narcissist inside. Narcis always shrug responsibility and always deflect blame and always think they are the best. Did you once hear him say that was in me I need to be better. Even after that aborted game 3 vs FL.

There is a reason 68% of people here want to trade him for help on D and depth. He is a playoff fader when the going gets tough.

Post like this always make me laugh. This is all speculative. Based on press conferences you’re diagnosing someone as a narcissist? Saying a few buzz words that create a perception of accountability is worse than just being who you are authentically and showing accountability in private. There are a ton of athletes who say what fans want to hear in press conferences and stories have come out about them having true character issues. We hear the opposite for Marner.

He hasn’t deflected accountability. Anyone with a brain can understand that this is an organizational decision that they are a GROUP. That’s how they address issues, no one man is more important than the other. If one messes up they all mess up. If one fails they all fail. If you listen to everyone’s press conferences they address those topics the same. “We all have to be better.” “We want to prove that we can be better as a group.” “We all know we didn’t Meet expectations but we are excited to show what we can do”. This isn’t a Marner thing, as an organization they’ve decided they are going to tackle these issues together as a core as opposed to individually, which is fine.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Post like this always make me laugh. This is all speculative. Based on press conferences you’re diagnosing someone as a narcissist? Saying a few buzz words that create a perception of accountability is worse than just being who you are authentically and showing accountability in private. There are a ton of athletes who say what fans want to here in press conferences and stories have come out about them having true character issues. We hear the opposite for Marner.

He hasn’t deflected accountability. Anyone with a brain can understand that this is an organizational decision that they are a GROUP. That’s how they address issues, no one man is more important than the other. If one messes up they all mess up. If one fails they all fail. If you listen to everyone’s press conferences they address those topics the same. “We all have to be better.” “We want to prove that we can be better as a group.” “We all know we didn’t Meet expectations but we are excited to show what we can do”. This isn’t a Marner thing, as an organization they’ve decided they are going to tackle these issues together as a core as opposed to individually, which is fine.

I don't remember having any such players on the team and I've been following them for over 50 years. Can you refresh my memory and name a few?

 

[francis246]

I don't remember having any such players on the team and I've been following them for over 50 years. Can you refresh my memory and name a few?

Did I say on the maple leafs? Freshen up your reading skills Gary. “There are a ton of athletes who say what fans what to hear in press conferences and stories have come out about them having true character issues” general blanket statement about athletes. You don’t know Jack all about other sports so I’m not gonna engage you in the conversation. Go read up yourself. Any true sports fan that has the capacity to extend themselves beyond the NHL understands this to be true. Athletes lie in press conferences to create a better perception of themselves all the time. Russell Wilson is a prime example of that.

 

[ACC1224]

Post like this always make me laugh. This is all speculative. Based on press conferences you’re diagnosing someone as a narcissist? Saying a few buzz words that create a perception of accountability is worse than just being who you are authentically and showing accountability in private. There are a ton of athletes who say what fans want to hear in press conferences and stories have come out about them having true character issues. We hear the opposite for Marner.

He hasn’t deflected accountability. Anyone with a brain can understand that this is an organizational decision that they are a GROUP. That’s how they address issues, no one man is more important than the other. If one messes up they all mess up. If one fails they all fail. If you listen to everyone’s press conferences they address those topics the same. “We all have to be better.” “We want to prove that we can be better as a group.” “We all know we didn’t Meet expectations but we are excited to show what we can do”. This isn’t a Marner thing, as an organization they’ve decided they are going to tackle these issues together as a core as opposed to individually, which is fine.

Good post.
The Marner perception might be the most bizarre topic I can recall being discussed here, some pretty funny stuff.

 

[ULF_55]

I think he'll look great (again) as Nylander's right winger.

Being "Selke" level defensively, he'll complement Nylander.

Matthews is considered very good defensively, so he doesn't need marner on his wing.

Seems like a good idea to keep him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Did I say on the maple leafs? Freshen up your reading skills Gary. “There are a ton of athletes who say what fans what to hear in press conferences and stories have come out about them having true character issues” general blanket statement about athletes. You don’t know Jack all about other sports so I’m not gonna engage you in the conversation. Go read up yourself. Any true sports fan that has the capacity to extend themselves beyond the NHL understands this to be true. Athletes lie in press conferences to create a better perception of themselves all the time. Russell Wilson is a prime example of that.

Well since you said there were "a ton", I figured there must have been a few here over the years - 50 years is a long time.

But let me get this straight, according to you, there are a ton of athletes with character issues, according to you Marner isn't among them and we should praise him for that even though the same could be said for every single player who's played for the Leafs over the last 50+ years.

High praise indeed. This may be a strange concept for you, but I'll stick to praising our players when they do something worthy of praise on the ice.

 

[francis246]

Good post.
The Marner perception might be the most bizarre topic I can recall being discussed here, some pretty funny stuff.

Agreed I don’t get why people are so caught up in him saying “I personally have to be better” I’ve rarely heard any NHL superstar utter those words. Especially with how much the team game is preached in the NHL. Name on the front not on the back. Hell I have yet to hear Auston or Willy say it but Marner is the Narcissist who won’t take accountability. It’s really silly.

 

[francis246]

Well since you said there were "a ton", I figured there must have been a few here over the years - 50 years is a long time.

But let me get this straight, according to you, there are a ton of athletes with character issues, according to you Marner isn't among them and we should praise him for that even though the same could be said for every single player who's played for the Leafs over the last 50+ years.

High praise indeed. This may be a strange concept for you, but I'll stick to praising our players when they do something worthy of praise on the ice.

Again you don’t watch other sports or have a good grasps on the sports world outside of hockey so yeah I wouldn’t expect you to know any thing about any other athletes.

I never said praise. If a player doesn’t play well they deserve to be criticized. But stop making assumptions or attacking who they are as people based on a 3 minute video would be nice. It’s immature and uncalled for.

Truth of the matter is people who have played with Marner and coached him have said great things about him. We have evidence of this in a docu-series as well. So it seems like the perception fans have of him is wrong. Yet you and a select few keep pushing the narrative.

People said very similar things about Phil Kessel, never shows that he cares, immature, lacks accountability, not a good dressing room guy, can’t win with him. We know that to not be true, loved in the locker room, does have passion for the game.

You’ve been pretty pissy with a lot of people this summer in different threads. Hopefully things are alright with you. But might be time for you to chill out baud!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Agreed I don’t get why people are so caught up in him saying “I personally have to be better” I’ve rarely heard any NHL superstar utter those words. Especially with how much the team game is preached in the NHL. Name on the front not on the back. Hell I have yet to hear Auston or Willy say it but Marner is the Narcissist who won’t take accountability. It’s really silly.

I see no reason to assume Marner is a narcissist , I also see no reason to praise him as you have done on so many occasions for being a good teammate when you can say that about almost every player in the league. I get your POV though, when other people say silly things, they're silly but when you say silly things, then they're insightful.

Again you don’t watch other sports or have a good grasps on the sports world outside of hockey so yeah I wouldn’t expect you to know any thing about any other athletes.

I never said praise. If a player doesn’t play well they deserve to be criticized. But stop making assumptions or attacking who they are as people based on a 3 minute video would be nice. It’s immature and uncalled for.

Truth of the matter is people who have played with Marner and coached him have said great things about him. We have evidence of this in a docu-series as well. So it seems like the perception fans have of him is wrong. Yet you and a select few keep pushing the narrative.

People said very similar things about Phil Kessel, never shows that he cares, immature, lacks accountability, not a good dressing room guy, can’t win with him. We know that to not be true, loved in the locker room, does have passion for the game.

You’ve been pretty pissy with a lot of people this summer in different threads. Hopefully things are alright with you. But might be time for you to chill out baud!

Wrong. Also, I never said those things about Kessel, and I haven't said them about Marner. Pathetic strawman arguments, can't you do any better than that?

 

[Zybalto]

Logging on every once in a while to see if this tire fire is still going.

Again,

Looking at the 55 forwards who have played at least 400 5v5 minutes over the last 3 playoffs, here are the top 5 standouts with the best numbers in the most important categories relative their teammates:

REL rankings:

Shot Differential:
1. Tkatchuk
2. Matthews
3. Bennet
4. Verhaeghe
5. Marner

High Danger Chance Differential:
1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Tkatchuk
4. McDavid
5. Verhaeghe

Expected Goal Differential:
1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Tkatchuk
4. McDavid
5. Verhaeghe

Goal Differential:
1. Marner (+23.46%!!!)
2. McDavid
3. MacKinnon
4. Danault
5. Verhaeghe


If terms of pure production, Marner leads all Leafs players in PPG with 26 points in 25 games but the real reason he is at the top of these lists is because of his insane two-way play as one of the better defensive players in the playoffs. If only the rest of the team brought the insane two-way game Marner has brought. It's easy to try and blame the top players on a team but it would be nice if guys like Kerfoot, Engvall, Mikheyev, O'Reilly, Jarnkrok and Hyman could provide more than the 3 combined 5v5 goals they provided over the last 3 years in their 1000+ minutes out there (Marner outscored all of them with 4 goals in 400 minutes). Those arnt bad players, they just couldnt get it done. Glorious chances galore that they flubbed on.

Going after a two way playmaker like Marner for his goal scoring is also strange considering the numbers the great Kucherov has put up (5 goals in 770+ 5v5 minutes in the last 3 years). Nice to be a winner with your depth players stepping up and arguably the greatest clutch playoff goalie of all time eh?

So..... 2/3 of the board wants to trade the guy whose last 3 years are him winning 2x RW of the year + a Selke nom who also leads his team in points per game in the playoffs while having the best 5v5 REL goal differential in the playoffs?.....all while being a lockdown PK machine?

I'm hoping the new additions to the Leafs will be able to buck the trend of our support players getting dominated by the other teams support players. It would be so much easier to blame coaching too but its always the others teams bottom six sticking it to ours, not getting caught out against the other team's big boys. Maybe one of the reasons it was Dubas let go instead of other options.

Campbell and Samsonov haven't really stacked up too well against Price, Vasy and Bob in big games either and its somewhat related to the problem.

In the big picture, I dont think we have a series win or even close series without Marner. He was easily the MVP of the series win against the Bolts.....yea, lets take that guy off our team.......

 

[ACC1224]

Agreed I don’t get why people are so caught up in him saying “I personally have to be better” I’ve rarely heard any NHL superstar utter those words. Especially with how much the team game is preached in the NHL. Name on the front not on the back. Hell I have yet to hear Auston or Willy say it but Marner is the Narcissist who won’t take accountability. It’s really silly.

Been a ton of silly things posted, not everyone gets the team concept of sport.

 

[ULF_55]

Been a ton of silly things posted, not everyone gets the team concept of sport.

And it is unfortunate that every player has a microphone shoved in their faces.

Some just don't have that ability to communicate.

 

[ACC1224]

And it is unfortunate that every player has a microphone shoved in their faces.

Some just don't have that ability to communicate.

No doubt that is the weakest part of Marner's game.