Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[ACC1224]

that was Kuch's age 25 season. which I guess Marner just had but I don't think it's unrealistic to suggest that Marner could reach 120 points in his age 26 season. anyway

He could reach that but he would have to sacrifice his defensive responsibilities.

 

[leafs in five]

Hopefully one day he can also pass Nikita Kucherov's age 21 one playoff production, since you know, things are so close and all.

*since things are not not even remotely close

 

[thusk]

Has any leading playoff scorer ever won a Stanley Cup without a goaltender?

When your goaltender had been your best player winning 1 conne smythe and getting stole his second conne smythe on 2nd run... its different than exemple mackinnon with kuemper, stl with binnington, pit murray/ fleury who did good thing at the right time but not close of what Vasilevskiy did...

When your goalie get Shutout every decisive game, thats HELP a lot

If vasilevskiy is not there we would talking about points leader of a losing team the same way than we can talking of marner right now last 25 game... points leader of a losing team

 

[Notsince67]

Remember you're trying to have a discussion with someone who can point out someones lack of training by a wedding video.
Safe to say this guy is swimming in the shallow end, best ignored.

In my defense, Im an empty nester. My kids arent around to abuse anymore and I got nostalgic.
Really empty calories though because at least they had the whit to give their old man a run from time to time. I know now that this is just wrong and I'll do better to pick on my own size.

 

[Arzak]

He could reach that but he would have to sacrifice his defensive responsibilities.

Oh yeah, it's the Selke holding him back.

 

[leafs in five]

does Kucherov ever screen the goalie

 

[67leafs]

After seeing his wedding video dance I’d trade him for sure!
pic.twitter.com/8Zs554V3U0

 

[ACC1224]

does Kucherov ever screen the goalie

He'll spear him though.

 

[TimeZone]

*since things are not not even remotely close

Correct, they aren't.

Google sarcasm, it'll change your life.

When your goaltender had been your best player winning 1 conne smythe and getting stole his second conne smythe on 2nd run... its different than exemple mackinnon with kuemper, stl with binnington, pit murray/ fleury who did good thing at the right time but not close of what Vasilevskiy did...

When your goalie get Shutout every decisive game, thats HELP a lot

If vasilevskiy is not there we would talking about points leader of a losing team the same way than we can talking of marner right now last 25 game... points leader of a losing team

"Would Vasi have won the Cup if he hadn't had Kuch and his playoff leading 32 points to lead the way?"

Maybe, maybe not but at the end of the day if you have a forward producing 32 points and leading the entire playoffs in scoring it's going to substantially improve your odds of winning the Stanley Cup, no?

"Sure he lead the playoffs in scoring but there were also other good players on that Stanley Cup winning team besides him!"

Okay, so?

What a weird argument.

 

[leafs in five]

Correct, they aren't.

read it again

 

[TimeZone]

read it again

I did, somehow your stutter showcases itself via text.

 

[socko]

Do we really have a thread pumping Marner in a game 7?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Do we really have a thread pumping Marner in a game 7?

We got out-goalied.

 

[leafs in five]

Do we really have a thread pumping Marner in a game 7?

god I miss hockey

 

[leafs in five]

that is a remarkable clip to have on hand or even better if you produced it to order

 

[geo25]

We are now solidly in the turn on each other stage of the off season. Hopefully Willy or Matthews signs soon for a change of topic

You know that wont happen any time soon (or at all).....

 

[geo25]

In my defense, Im an empty nester. My kids arent around to abuse anymore and I got nostalgic.
Really empty calories though because at least they had the whit to give their old man a run from time to time. I know now that this is just wrong and I'll do better to pick on my own size.

That about sums it all up and provides the rationale/context behind the manner in which you post, and more specifically the way in which you respond to other posters. Abuse comes in many forms...belittling, insulting other posters viewpoints qualifies....perhaps in some strange way your not aware of it but just go over your replies and it'll be apparent. This is a TML hockey forum, supposedly here to intelligently discuss all things TML. We all want the same thing....our damn team to get better & ultimately (hopefully soon) win the cup....you have much to contribute....just do it in a civil manner.

 

[thusk]

I'm of the firm belief that goals on the PP count just as much as any other goal.

Their PPG's in the playoffs in particular speak volumes, this isn't close until Marner takes a significant step.

As far as if Tampa would win without their leading playoff scorer? Maybe, maybe not.

Goal on power or whatever still power play and still only 1 aspect of the game... just dont know whats your point here...

 

[IPS]

I'm of the firm belief that goals on the PP count just as much as any other goal.

Their PPG's in the playoffs in particular speak volumes, this isn't close until Marner takes a significant step.

As far as if Tampa would win without their leading playoff scorer? Maybe, maybe not.

You're not wrong at all.

I get it that reffing is terrible in the playoffs and the Leafs don't get many powerplays, but when they do - they do f*** all with them. It's an area where Marner and Matthews need to get better at. So many times over recent years we needed a PP goal at a crucial time and those guys just can't deliver.

Only powerplay where kucherov litterally outplayed marner... its the only aspect of the ganw kucherov is really better...


Honestly yes i think tampa could still win it without kucherov how spectacular Vasilevskiy was

On 7 decisive game exemple in 2021... Kucherov had only 3 assist... Vasilevsky allowed 8 goal in those 7 game ( 4 of those goal came gm #5 in 1st round vs florida)...

Do you have anyway of hypothesizing what Marner's production would be if he got Kucherov's PP time?

 

[TimeZone]

Goal on power or whatever still power play and still only 1 aspect of the game... just dont know whats your point here...

That the guy with significantly more production in the regular season, playoffs with a Ted Lindsay Art Ross Trophy, Hart Trophy, 2x Stanley cups to his name on top of being the most productive forward on said Stanley Cup teams is superior to the guy with none of those things.

I hope that was simple enough for you.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So now you’re lumping Matthews and Marner with “lots of other players”. I thought you said that they deserve every nickel they have gotten? Since they have been earning so much, you can’t just lump them in with all those other players, can you?

"Other players" covers a big range. Even some of the best players in the world didn't win young. Why does our players being better and thus being paid a consistent amount more mean that we should win faster in a cap world?

You talk about raw points, external factors, among other things. All of these apply to both teams in a series, do they not? It’s strange that these “factors” supposedly only affect the Leafs.

They do apply to both teams. They don't only affect the Leafs. You're just only focused on how it affects the Leafs.
Over two series against us (13 GP), both Point and Stamkos put up a 50 point pace. Do they suck? Are they bad playoff performers? They didn't even face good goaltending. In the Florida series, a lot is made about Matthews not getting a goal, but Tkachuk didn't get one either. Did he suck in this playoffs? Barkov had 3 points in 5 games against us. Does he suck? Ovechkin and Kuznetsov both played at a 41 point pace against us in the playoffs? Are they bad playoff performers?

We can also look at some players who faced our opponents after us. Against Montreal, Point had 0 goals and 3 points in 5 GP. Pacioretty 3 in 6. Dubois and Ehlers 1 in 4. Stamkos 1 in 5. Stone, Scheifele, Wheeler big fat 0s. Aho put up 2 points right after us this year against Florida as his team got swept. 5 points in 7 games for Pastrnak in a high scoring series. But crickets about them. Even though Boston lost to a team 43 points below them and Carolina's coach basically just went out and said "meh, well it wasn't REALLY a sweep if you think about it because we played hard". Can you even imagine if we did/said that?

It would also make sense that the Leafs have faced a bigger deflationary effect than their opponents, because goaltending is the most impactful external factor, and we've faced a lot of the most elite goalies in the game (which have populated our division and conference), some of them in the process of really good runs that extend far beyond us, while we don't have that. And we've also faced some high end defensive teams over the years, while we've only gotten good defensively in the last few years.

And as far as it being a small sample size, that’s on each team‘s luck, desire, etc. to determine how many playoff games they play.

But it doesn't change that small sample sizes limit the representative value of raw points.
And quite frankly, you can play the maximum number of games in a playoffs, and it still wouldn't be a significant sample.

Also, since 2017 these two have played roughly a total of 46 playoff games. That’s not a small sample size.

Yes it is. Would you completely alter your perception of players based on where they stand halfway through next season? Those games also stretch back to when they were rookies and teenagers, so how relevant can it even be to right now? And as I went over, a bigger sample doesn't mean an equalized experience in the playoffs anyway.

You continue to mention about one team facing a “generational goalie who’s having a performance of a lifetime”. Again, funny how it’s always the Leafs who face this goalie! Has this happened in every playoff series? Shouldn’t our star players be able to solve at least one of these goalies and win a series?

It's not always the Leafs that face this goalie. It has happened 3 times in 8 series (2 of which where our best shooter was injured, and the other after a 5 month break mid-pandemic in a bubble), and every time, the same goalie continued it afterward against other teams.
Our stars have solved many goalies, but star players aren't immune from being affected by things like goaltending impacts. It affects everybody.

All playoff games are important, but the game that gets you your 4th win in a series, that would be the most important one.

All games and wins are important. They are all worth the same.

Were we a top 5 defensive team this past year? If so, why didn’t we look like it in the playoffs? We certainly didn’t do a good job of getting the puck out of our end.

We were the 9th best defensive team last year. In the playoffs, we were within 0.03 of our regular season resuls while facing two of the top 7 offense-generating teams in the league. But perception of defensive play is heavily impacted by the performance of a goaltender, and our goaltending went from +0.294 GSAx per game over the regular season to -0.045 GSAx in the playoffs. We had moments where we struggled to get the puck out of the zone, which tend to stick in the mind, even through they represent a pretty small proportion of overall play.

 

[Sypher04]

I get it that reffing is terrible in the playoffs and the Leafs don't get many powerplays, but when they do - they do f*** all with them. It's an area where Marner and Matthews need to get better at. So many times over recent years we needed a PP goal at a crucial time and those guys just can't deliver.

I don’t disagree that timing has been a problem but overall our pp was far from bad. Absolutely could be better, but we had the 6th rated PP last playoffs at 25% and three of the 5 ahead of us were 40% or higher which is utterly ridiculous. Bigger problem for us was our lousy PK in the playoffs

I think Klingberg and Bertuzzi could be big helps on PP. Hard to imagine we’re not going back to 2 units.

 

[thusk]

You're not wrong at all.

I get it that reffing is terrible in the playoffs and the Leafs don't get many powerplays, but when they do - they do f*** all with them. It's an area where Marner and Matthews need to get better at. So many times over recent years we needed a PP goal at a crucial time and those guys just can't deliver.


Do you have anyway of hypothesizing what Marner's production would be if he got Kucherov's PP time?

If we making rules of 3

Adding 5 points by season...

That the guy with significantly more production in the regular season, playoffs with a Ted Lindsay Art Ross Trophy, Hart Trophy, 2x Stanley cups to his name on top of being the most productive forward on said Stanley Cup teams is superior to the guy with none of those things.

I hope that was simple enough for you.

His last 2 season where he played a least 60% of game... 1,32 pts/ gm vs 1,29

His 3 points by season of difference in 82 games regular season

The last 2 season, marner was producing at a rate of 31 pts by 25 game ( to compare to kucherov number) its 3 points of difference 34 points high of kucherov in playoff

thats your definition of significantly more production?

Art ross and ted lindsay... okay fine having 1 great season making him better??? Marner is only 25 and he certainly can win those type of award in short futur...

Or team succes make him a better player?

 

[Sypher04]

I’m still floored that somehow 70% of the people in this thread poll reached the conclusion that we should be trading Marner. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I will belittle those opinions where I see fit

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m still floored that somehow 70% of the people in this thread poll reached the conclusion that we should be trading Marner. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I will belittle those opinions where I see fit

It was a poll made on a very negatively-skewed message board on the day that the Leaf's season ended.
It's not really a good representation of the position of the overall fanbase.