Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[TimeZone]

What makes you “sense” that?

Repetitive loser quotes after playoff Ls while seemingly not working on glaring weaknesses(E.G muffin shot, physical weakness, Bambi frame) after well over half a decade.



mitch marner we need to come back pissed off - Google Search

 

[TimeZone]

You can mention what you like seeing you don't seem to care about not having a clue about the most basic things.
Marner is 1 inch taller. That is it. A significantly better player is he?View attachment 732894View attachment 732895

Again, NHL.com measurements are not even remotely accurate.

Those are some really cool graphs bro, very impressive.

Now welcome to reality :

Kucherov has hit the 100 point plateau 3x in his career, including 128 points in which he won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay.

He's lead the playoffs in points twice during his career, en route to winning two Stanley Cups back to back.

Kucherov had more playoff goals in his second career playoff appearance as a 21 year old than Mitch Marner has in his entre career to date at the age of 26.

Playoff PPG

Kucherov : 1.112

Marner : 0.94


Regular Season PPG


Kucherov : 1.13

Marner : 1.09


Hardware


Kucherov : Art Ross, Lindsay, Hart, 2x Stanley Cup Champion

Mitch Marner :


Yeah, under absolutely no circumstances does Mitch Marner have the pedigree to even be argued as to being on Kucherov's level, regular Season wise his production is in the realm, that comparison immediately drowns when we look at their playoff numbers/success on top of their individual success.

 

[Notsince67]

Again, NHL.com measurements are not even remotely accurate.

Those are some really cool graphs bro, very impressive.

Now welcome to reality :

Didn't get any measurements from nhl.com. If you have some breaking news to tell us all, go at it. Back one claim with facts. Otherwise piss off and come back talking about something you know something about.

 

[TimeZone]

Didn't get any measurements from nhl.com. If you have some breaking news to tell us all, go at it. Back one claim with facts. Otherwise piss off and come back talking about something you know something about.

Again, NHL.com measurements are not even remotely accurate.

Those are some really cool graphs bro, very impressive.

Now welcome to reality :

Kucherov has hit the 100 point plateau 3x in his career, including 128 points in which he won the Art Ross, Hart and Lindsay.

He's lead the playoffs in points twice during his career, en route to winning two Stanley Cups back to back.

Kucherov had more playoff goals in his second career playoff appearance as a 21 year old than Mitch Marner has in his entre career to date at the age of 26.

Playoff PPG

Kucherov : 1.112

Marner : 0.94


Regular Season PPG


Kucherov : 1.13

Marner : 1.09


Hardware


Kucherov : Art Ross, Lindsay, Hart, 2x Stanley Cup Champion

Mitch Marner :


Yeah, under absolutely no circumstances does Mitch Marner have the pedigree to even be argued as to being on Kucherov's level, regular Season wise his production is in the realm, that comparison immediately drowns when we look at their playoff numbers on top of their individual success.

I think there's enough facts in there to comfortably reach the conclusion that Mitch Marner is significantly inferior to Nikita Kucherov.

Maybe you have another cool graph that we can pretend holds half of the weight as actual results, I'll be waiting.

 

[thewave]

I think there's enough facts in there to comfortably reach the conclusion that Mitch Marner is significantly inferior to Nikita Kucherov.

Maybe you have another cool graph that we can pretend holds half of the weight as actual results, I'll be waiting.

Just quoting for truth and because I think this is spot on. I like facts, facts don't lie.

 

[thusk]

And if you can't manage scoring more than one goal, that's also trouble.

When you allowing 1st goal, its become even more harder... exactly whats i saying...

The #1 difference between game5-6 7 vs mtl and tampa 2021/2022, gm5-6 vs tampa gm 4 and 5 vs florida 2023 is whos scored the 1st goal...

Leafs gave up 5 time 1st goal, 4 of 5 time was result on a pretty weak goal allowed by goalie and they lost all those game... they scored 1 st goal 3 time and won 2 of 3 of those game...

Bergeron played true shut-down 2nd line center back then with Krejci's line focusing more on scoring

Marner is not playing the same role, but we like to pretend he does when he's not scoring

Crosby was probably on a shutdown 2nd line too, oreilly too...

Anyway thats changing absolutly nothing at the fact than offensive stats doesn't show everything... you can finish a game with 0 pts and be fantastic and an other game finsh with 1 goal 1 assist and be totally trash...

 

[Gary Nylund]

When you allowing 1st goal, its become even more harder... exactly whats i saying...

The #1 difference between game5-6 7 vs mtl and tampa 2021/2022, gm5-6 vs tampa gm 4 and 5 vs florida 2023 is whos scored the 1st goal...

Leafs gave up 5 time 1st goal, 4 of 5 time was result on a pretty weak goal allowed by goalie and they lost all those game... they scored 1 st goal 3 time and won 2 of 3 of those game...


Crosby was probably on a shutdown 2nd line too, oreilly too...

Anyway thats changing absolutly nothing at the fact than offensive stats doesn't show everything... you can finish a game with 0 pts and be fantastic and an other game finsh with 1 goal 1 assist and be totally trash...

You allow the first goal, it's always harder. That doesn't mean the game is over and it's no excuse for not being able to score more than one goal the rest of the game, especially with most of the game still to be played and especially when you should be focusing on scoring.

 

[notbias]

3 players making $11 mil each and combined for $33 mil of a $83 mil cap score 1 goal in 5 games, as Leafs nearly get swept in round #2.

vs Florida
Marner 5 games 1-2-3 points & Matthew 5 games 0-2-2 points & Tavares 5 games 0-1-1 points ... Combined 1 goal 5 assists 6 points.

Solution: Common sense says trade one of the $11 mil players for more depth and better supporting and surrounding players.
Problem: All 3 have full NMC contracts and are not going anywhere, signed sealed and delivered.

Competent new GM solution "If you can't beat em join em".

Sign Tyler Bertuzzi for $5.5 mil (= 1/2 AAV of 3 X $11 mil players)

vs. Florida
Games: 7 Goals: 5 Assists: 5 Points: 10 >>> All 3 NMC players combined vs Florida last year. So for $5.5 mil = 5 goals and 10 points & for 3 players and $33 mil = 1 goals and 6 points.

In Toronto they pay their top players amongst the highest in the NHL and then come playoff time its the supporting cast and depth that is expected to carry the team to victory, when the stars go AWOL.

I appreciate the amount of effort you put in to say nothing.

The competent GM has asked none of them to waive their NMCs and is actually trying to re-sign them... doesn't seem to fit the narrative you are pushing.

Repetitive loser quotes after playoff Ls while seemingly not working on glaring weaknesses(E.G muffin shot, physical weakness, Bambi frame) after well over half a decade.



mitch marner we need to come back pissed off - Google Search

His shot is decent... It is deceptive.

30th in goals in the last 3 years is not bad for a muffin shot.

22nd in ESG.

This is while playing beside the best goal scorer in the league so you'd think he'd defer a lot more than take the shot.

 

[Notsince67]

I think there's enough facts in there to comfortably reach the conclusion that Mitch Marner is significantly inferior to Nikita Kucherov.

Maybe you have another cool graph that we can pretend holds half of the weight as actual results, I'll be waiting.

Actual results? You don't even know something as basic as weight and height. I am not a nursery kid and I have no interest in giving you even a basic lesson seeing you cast doubt at basic physical descriptions.
Now we have seen everything here. Even questioning weight selectively with one player but not others. It seems your first comment on the subject wasn't going to be the dumbest one

 

[TimeZone]

Actual results? You don't even know something as basic as weight and height. I am not a nursery kid and I have no interest in giving you even a basic lesson seeing you cast doubt at basic physical descriptions.
Now we have seen everything here. Even questioning weight selectively with one player but not others. It seems your first comment on the subject wasn't going to be the dumbest one

Again, the size of players reported on NHL.com are extremely inaccurate, it's a not-so clever attempt to deflect from the topic at hand(IE who's superior between Marner/Kucherov) that simply isn't going to fly.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist, nor do you require 20/20 vision to see that one of these individuals has significantly more mass than little Mitch on bottom

Kucherov is better than Marner in every aspect, especially when it comes to producing during the playoffs.

Get over it, this isn't close.

 

[Notsince67]

Again, the size of players reported on NHL.com are extremely inaccurate, it's a not-so clever attempt to deflect from the topic at hand(IE who's superior between Marner/Kucherov) that simply isn't going to fly.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist, nor do you require 20/20 vision to see that one of these individuals has significantly more mass than little Mitch on bottom

Kucherov is better than Marner in every aspect, especially when it comes to producing during the playoffs.

Get over it, this isn't close.

Again...I did not use nhl.com stats so this isn't even being contested even though your belief that Marners weight is wrong and kucherov is right happens to be batshit crazy.
Saying kucherov is better in all aspects of the game is something so stupid that a lightning fan wouldn't use it to troll. You dont even touch on a contentious issue. He is not even replacement level defensively ffs. This isn't very hard dude. 3rd thing you've said that is really dumb.

 

[TimeZone]

Again...I did not use nhl.com stats so this isn't even being contested even though your belief that Marners weight is wrong and kucherov is right happens to be batshit crazy.
Saying kucherov is better in all aspects of the game is something so stupid that a lightning fan wouldn't use it to troll. You dont even touch on a contentious issue. He is not even replacement level defensively ffs. This isn't very hard dude. 3rd thing you've said that is really dumb.

1. I quite literally never said either of these things, I merely stated that NHL.com is extremely unreliable when it comes to listing players height and weight and provided examples of other players who are listed laughably inaccurately.

2. The fact that you took so much literally, considering the multiple facets of the game speaks volumes. Yes, Marner is superior on the penalty kill, I'm sure he has better edgework as well. Unfortunately when it comes to the full blown combination, edge, production regular season and playoff, team success, individual success....we're discussing two players on entirely different levels, that's the point here.

You're right, this isn't hard, and I'd count the amount of idiotic things you've spewed this far but even if we were to combine all of worst takes together it wouldn't amount to the idiotic take that Mitch Marner is as good a player as Nikita Kucherov.

Go make a poll on the main board if you feel so strongly, hell, make one on the Leafs forum if you feel like backtracking, see how it goes.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I agree with this thread. We should trade or keep Marner.

 

[hfman]

You can mention what you like seeing you don't seem to care about not having a clue about the most basic things.
Marner is 1 inch taller. That is it. A significantly better player is he?View attachment 732894View attachment 732895

...

You can mention what you like seeing you don't seem to care about not having a clue about the most basic things.
Marner is 1 inch taller. That is it. A significantly better player is he?View attachment 732894View attachment 732895

lol what in the hell are all those graphs and things

 

[TimeZone]

A poll? Dumb #4. Adjudication facts is not a function of a popular vote. You don't get to gloss over your bullshit through some vote. You made all the claims including kucherov is better at every aspect of the game. You don't walk that stupidity back by getting other idiots to agree. I have laid out facts including the first that Marner is not 170lbs as you say. I have nothing left for you. Cancel Marner because he isn't 181lbs as ever reference says and he refuses to get to that weight. See! It still sounds stupid.

Nikita Kucherov is a vastly superior player to Mitch Marner, it's not even remotely close despite your illogical graphs, facts triumph over emotions in every occasion.

Regardless of if Bambi is 171, or 181(highly doubtful), at the end of the day he has significantly less muscle and is a significantly inferior player to Nikita Kucherov.

That's it, the masses agree, you can go to sleep now lying to yourself that you handled this situation well and that you're the smartest guy in the room and know better than everyone else.

This was over before it started, facts always beat emotions, period.

 

[Antropovsky]

Seems about right.
I would have pegged about 25% of this board having a clue.

Lol coming from the poster who was complaining about Nylander not checking in a different thread. Talk about a double standard.

 

[Antropovsky]

Been on my summer break from this place (gotta do it lol) but I'll just throw this in here as there seems to be some confusion about just how valuable Marner is to the team.

Looking at the 55 forwards who have played at least 400 5v5 minutes over the last 3 playoffs, here are the top 5 standouts with the best numbers in the most important categories relative their teammates:

REL rankings:

Shot Differential:
1. Tkatchuk
2. Matthews
3. Bennet
4. Verhaeghe
5. Marner

High Danger Chance Differential:
1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Tkatchuk
4. McDavid
5. Verhaeghe

Expected Goal Differential:
1. Matthews
2. Marner
3. Tkatchuk
4. McDavid
5. Verhaeghe

Goal Differential:
1. Marner
2. McDavid
3. MacKinnon
4. Danault
5. Verhaeghe

Considering so many seem to prefer outcomes as the ultimate expression of a player's value and Marner is rocking a +23.46 GF% REL, he should be up there as an example of a guy who really brings it in the playoffs no?

Critics can bring up middling PP numbers I guess but he has been, hands down, one of the most effective 5v5 players in the NHL playoffs the last 3 seasons. Adding in the fact he has been also one of the best regular season forwards in the league as an all situations player, its a little insane anyone wants him out of town. The guy its one of the few bargains when it comes to the top 20 contracts in the league and the team will never replace what he brings at that caphit.

Keep up the fun debate in here folks. Still lurking till the season starts and the team is going to be a helluva lot of fun to watch with the new additions.

GLG!

Watching the last two playoffs, a seasoned fan notices Marner has difficulty with zone entries. He and Tavares especially struggle while on the same line because they struggled to get into the zone. Watch back game 3 and you will see this in full effect, Marner constantly losing possession of the pick because of his inability to carry it over the offensive blueline.

I recently discovered this piece by the Athletic, written in 2022, "The NHL’s most dynamic forwards: Ranking the best (and worst) forwards at zone entries and rush offense"

Marner (and Tavares) didn't even crack the top 50 players in ozone entries per 60. Yet the majority of the top paid players do. Perhaps I'm missing something, and Marner didn't make the list for some other reason other than just being bad at ozone entries? Tulsky did a study highlighting the importance of offensive entries.

Before we analyze which players excel at creating offensive zone entries with possession, it’s important to clarify why they matter in the first place.

Eric Tulsky, now an assistant general manager with the Hurricanes, conducted a study many years ago which found that zone entries with possession were twice as likely to result in shots and goals than dump-ins on average.

It’s still possible to be a very effective dump-and-chase team but if we’re strictly talking about creating offense, it’s a lot easier to do when you enter the zone with control."

Players who created the most 5vs5 ozone entries per60 entries top 50:

Barzal 21.4
Mcdavid
Ehlers
Point
Hughes
Draisaitl
Kaprizov
Verhaeghe
Kadri
Mackinnon
Gaudreau
Fiala
Kyrou
Panarin
Meier
Duclair
Debrincat
Barkov
Marchand
Connor
Stone
Brett
Kane
Kapanen
Terry
Pastrnak
Buchenevich
Crosby
Carrier
Thomas
Duchene
Matthews
Dache
Keller
Kemp
Cousins
Strephenson
Nelson
Zegras
Donskai
Karlsson
Nylander
Arvidson
Dahlen
Raddish
Gurianov
Pettersson 12.5

Im shocked to not see Marner on this list, considering how many non stars who seemingly made it before him.

 

[leafs in five]

we reached the photos of Kucherov with no shirt on stage of the offseason

 

[leafs in five]

He can't score, does not score in high pressure situations and is overpaid. That much is clear and it's all facts really.

can't argue with facts I guess, oh well

(scored the gwg in r2 g3)

 

[thewave]

can't argue with facts I guess, oh well

(scored the gwg in r2 g3)

From your observations, do you feel that Mitch will be the one, the guy that is the difference maker and puts this team over the top? The super elite player that enables you to win? If so, why haven't we won or even hit the ECF? Matthews is arguably 7% better the player than Marner by his admission and contract demand. Nylander is now requesting around 90% of Marners pay.

It's just amazing with all these super elite amazing players that the best we can do is R2-Loss one time. So either the players evaluated themselves out of reality and into orbit, or we can't get it done because what?

Seems pretty obvious, the kids went into negotiations like they were the best thing since sliced bread because the JT signing and held firm onto the delusion and now look stupid because they haven't done anything. Kucherov is being used here, he has results, hardware and Cups, these guys have a new car and sponsorship deal.

 

[leafs in five]

Matthews is arguably 7% better the player than Marner by his admission and contract demand.

Idk man

this just isn't a healthy way to consume sport or any type of entertainment

 

[Antropovsky]

can't argue with facts I guess, oh well

(scored the gwg in r2 g3)

Lol if Oreilly wasn't standing directly in front of Bobs eyes, than Bob makes the save on the weak blueline wrister by Marner with his eyes closed. Yep... Like the other few Marner goals he's scored in the playoffs, it was a 60' blueline shot with Oreilly completely screening the goalie. One thing you'll note about Marner is that he's never standing in front of the oppositions net creating a screen. If he did... Maybe his linemates would be the beneficiary of a few goals themselves thanks to a screened goalie. And maybe the team has more postseason success.

A few of Marners primary assists are also because Matthews or Tavares stood in front of the goalie and tipped shots. How many tipped goals does Marner have? I read that in terms of slot shots, Marner was 10% worse than the next worse leaf in slot shots and his average shot distance was 47'. Yikes! But take away his linemates work in the trenches in front of the net and many of Marners "few" (5 in last 30) postseason goals are taken away. Again... A favor never returns to his linemates. Apparently, Mitch Marner is too good to screen goalies.

 

[leafs in five]

A few of Marners primary assists are also because Matthews or Tavares stood in front of the goalie and tipped shots.

yeah those ones definitely shouldn't count as assists or points

 

[thusk]

You allow the first goal, it's always harder. That doesn't mean the game is over and it's no excuse for not being able to score more than one goal the rest of the game, especially with most of the game still to be played and especially when you should be focusing on scoring.

I dont say they cant, just saying its pretty hard and not just for toronto but for all NHL team...

When all the pressure falling in your side... they're a reason why 10 of last 11 (91%) team to score 1st in game #7 won the game

 

[Arzak]

Lol if Oreilly wasn't standing directly in front of Bobs eyes, than Bob makes the save on the weak blueline wrister by Marner with his eyes closed. Yep... Like the other few Marner goals he's scored in the playoffs, it was a 60' blueline shot with Oreilly completely screening the goalie. One thing you'll note about Marner is that he's never standing in front of the oppositions net creating a screen. If he did... Maybe his linemates would be the beneficiary of a few goals themselves thanks to a screened goalie. And maybe the team has more postseason success.

A few of Marners primary assists are also because Matthews or Tavares stood in front of the goalie and tipped shots. How many tipped goals does Marner have? I read that in terms of slot shots, Marner was 10% worse than the next worse leaf in slot shots and his average shot distance was 47'. Yikes! But take away his linemates work in the trenches in front of the net and many of Marners "few" (5 in last 30) postseason goals are taken away. Again... A favor never returns to his linemates. Apparently, Mitch Marner is too good to screen goalies.

Well it would be hard for him to stay in front of the goalie, name single D in the NHL that would have trouble moving him aside.


Also, he is not risking missing out on his secondary assist by doing the dirty work for measly +- we don't even consider real stat.