Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[ACC1224]

Until this year, there’s never been a team with a skater to even make a cup final making more than 9.5m.

Spending near 30m on two players who have accomplished absolutely nothing will only continue the streak of embarrassing futility in the playoffs. These guys need complimentary players to help them and at the prices they want, it doesn’t leave room to get those kinds of players.

If a GM is to build a winner, they have to get players onboard with winning and making small sacrifices to do so. Marner and Matthews should be gone if they’re both demanding anywhere near 15m, especially Marner. Neither of them have done nearly enough to justify a raise.

I’m sure the GM is aware of all this.

 

[Gabriel426]

I agree with you on Matthews. But I believe Marner. will be more relaxed. On his contract demands this time. This was his best year so far, and I put him between top 10 top 15. best players. I can't see him demanding to be paid more than Mcdavid or Mckinnon. and a few others.

I hope so too.

That’s a different thing

How is that different?
You sign players to help you win Cup(S).

Just like you won’t sign Vas and Helle if they are both UFAs and run them as tandem but they are too 5 goalies in the league.

 

[ACC1224]

I hope so too.


How is that different?
You sign players to help you win Cup(S).

Just like you won’t sign Vas and Helle if they are both UFAs and run them as tandem but they are too 5 goalies in the league.

It’s a different thing because post wasn’t talking about winning.

 

[Gabriel426]

It’s a different thing because post wasn’t talking about winning.

Okay

 

[leafs in five]

Can Leafs win the Cup with AM and MM being paid 13-15mil each playing on the same line?
Sofar, the answer is No.

can you win a cup with Connor McDavid as your best player? so far the answer is no

 

[thewave]

-Leafs can't win it carrying $40m+ in 4 forwards
-$20m+ for two wingers is not viable
-We need assets for trade to shore up the D-core

-JT comes off the books but Nylander probably wants +2m, Matthews +3m and Marner will want the same as Matthews so. That's practically eats the savings from JT.

I think that leaves us in a really bad position unless Woll turns into a top 5 tender in the league.

 

[Gary Nylund]

can you win a cup with Connor McDavid as your best player? so far the answer is no

Touche.

 

[Nineteen67]

can you win a cup with Connor McDavid as your best player? so far the answer is no

But they got to a semi-final, which is likely the ceiling for this core. Which is very good, imo.

 

[leafs in five]

-Leafs can't win it carrying $40m+ in 4 forwards

dang

did Colorado do any LTIR cap saving maneuvering last year? Tampa and Vegas were both able to basically ice a team well over the salary cap in the playoffs for their cup wins (most recent in Tampa's case)

 

[Da Mash]

The NHL is different from other sports in this regard so the bolded is incorrect. The game changes in the playoffs, you can like it or not like it but it's a fact.

If you want to win the cup, you need to consider this fact when building your team. The Leafs currently aren't built for the playoffs and until the makeup of the team changes, they'll probably continue to do very well during the regular season and not so well once the playoffs start.

So the NHL is different and we just have to accept the inconsistent rule changes?
Its a fact because the refs make it that way. There are no facts...documented rule changes for playoffs. None what so ever.

You deem it as facts because it has happened over and over where goons get applauded and star players suffer. If the goons were so good....why are they not any Olympic teams?

No wonder the NHL is losing viewerships.

How about building a team with one set of rules.....like every other professional sports? Why is that so hard? Is it the Don Cherry brainwash that we need these toothless Canadians to bash each other brains out to "show heart"

Spend the regular season barely making the playoffs because you lead the league in penalties but hey....if we make the playoffs.....we might have a chance to win the cup because the rules change

What a product

We went that route years ago beating up Sens and still won squat

 

[Gary Nylund]

So the NHL is different and we just have to accept the inconsistent rule changes?
Its a fact because the refs make it that way. There are no facts...documented rule changes for playoffs. None what so ever.

You deem it as facts because it has happened over and over where goons get applauded and star players suffer. If the goons were so good....why are they not any Olympic teams?

Not sure what you mean by "accept", I don't like it either, but it is what it is. If someone starts a petition or something to get the NHL to change I'll sign, not sure what else I can do other than to stop watching and I'm not quite there, not yet anyway. And as long as I am watching I want my team to win so I want the people in charge to build a team that can succeed in the playoffs and not just in the regular season.

I see no point in comparing the NHL to the Olympics. There is no regular season in the Olympics, yes those games are called differently but that has nothing to do with the NHL.

 

[leafs in five]

We went that route years ago beating up Sens and still won squat

I see a lot of similarities between these Leafs and those Sens teams

 

[Da Mash]

I dont see how complaining about how the game is called in the playoffs and saying its unfair does any good like at all. Complaining and wishing it was different does what exactly? Bringing up other sports means nothing to me. Go watch them then if thats what you prefer. Hockey is fast and things happen quickly. Its war baby.

I work with people who complain about how things are run all the time...they know better than the owners how to run their business and complain constantly about how it should be done. Drives me nuts....do the job or leave or start your own business and make whatever rules you want.

I didnt say Gudas has heart though he does....you called him and the panthers goons and I was responding to that and said I would love a guy like Gudas on the leafs D punishing the opposition. The rules benefit the goons?....how many goons were on Vegas again? Vegas didnt seem to have a problem handling the Panthers goonery.

Calling the panthers goons who took out 3 top teams including us is saying our little boys cant handle it and its not fair. Tough shit....time to put on the big boy pants or face the same result next time.

So the leafs arent soft as butter? re Gretzky messier, rosehill, kypryeos and a bunch of others think differently... you know guys who actually played in the nhl and understand what it takes. Gretztky got over 200 pts in a season and is the all time best player in the world.....dont think lack of jam is a concern with him however even Gretzky and Messier called out Nylander last year when he did one of his famous pull backs, both stating you cant do that in the playoffs you just cant. And gretz this year calling the stars MIA. So yea Ill listen to what they have to say which goes right along my thoughts as well over an internet guy on hf boards who is trying to force the opinion that M$M are amongst the most competitive players in the league.

Players dont need to fight to have jam or be tough...wish people would stop with that...mention toughness and some around here immediately go to mouthbreathers and knuckledraggers....always taking it to the extreme.

Liked Sundin a lot til he signed with the Canucks.

So while I hear what your saying, I just dont agree. You can keep teliing me how great of a team we are over and over but I have my own opinion and it isnt that. I did feel lucky at first with this bunch but as each year goes by the warts keep revealing themselves and it seems like the ones in charge want to bury their heads in the sand and act like we are on the cusp of greatness and as a result just keep repeating what failed the year before.

Thats too funny....

Do you work in a place that changes rules 2 months of the year? I think not.
So Hockey is fast in regular season too....probably faster then playoffs where they can clog the neutral zone and interfere.

Its also funny the Panthers went back to their regular season penalties average against Vegas. I guess it wasnt the refs but Vegas causing it? Okie Dokie.

I dont give two craps what former players or mediots say......they all have a opinion....they like causing a stir like the rest of them. Wayne was a pathetic as a coach and in management. Wayne complianing about Nylander not playing D is laughable IMHO. They wore cloth shoulder and elbow pads....and could skate half the rink without a player on them.

How long did Gilly and Clark and their likes stay here.......failing each year? Did management put their heads in the sand ? Year after year failing to win the cup? No big boy pants back then I guess

But the perception was......what heart they had....but the perception here is our star players have no heart.

Only sport that changes rules in playoffs....but thats all good because "thats the way it is"
and then proclaim we go to the extreme when we question it.

Oh well....agree to disagree brother....

 

[Gary Nylund]

How long did Gilly and Clark and their likes stay here.......failing each year? Did management put their heads in the sand ? Year after year failing to win the cup? No big boy pants back then I guess

But the perception was......what heart they had....but the perception here is our star players have no heart.

Those teams with Gilmour and Clark, we didn't see their performance drop off when the playoffs started. I can live with not winning the cup, almost every team lives with that each year but when year after year we're a top team during the regular season and we don't play like a top team in the playoffs, that's hard to take.

 

[Da Mash]

Those teams with Gilmour and Clark, we didn't see their performance drop off when the playoffs started. I can live with not winning the cup, almost every team lives with that each year but when year after year we're a top team during the regular season and we don't play like a top team in the playoffs, that's hard to take.

I agree its hard to take. But I also accept the fact that the rules change to hinder their effectiveness. Like most star players. McDavid draws the most penalties in the regular season. Come playoff time its non existent.

That bothers me as it hurts the game. All other professional sports protect and want their stars to shine ....especially in playoffs. The NHL doesnt.

No wonder I find Olympic hockey more enjoyable.

 

[Da Mash]

I see a lot of similarities between these Leafs and those Sens teams

And then years later.....we add Spezza and leafs go wild and loved him

Now there are rumours that we want Karlsson ?

Crazy eh ?

 

[Nineteen67]

Thats too funny....

Do you work in a place that changes rules 2 months of the year? I think not.
So Hockey is fast in regular season too....probably faster then playoffs where they can clog the neutral zone and interfere.

Its also funny the Panthers went back to their regular season penalties average against Vegas. I guess it wasnt the refs but Vegas causing it? Okie Dokie.

I dont give two craps what former players or mediots say......they all have a opinion....they like causing a stir like the rest of them. Wayne was a pathetic as a coach and in management. Wayne complianing about Nylander not playing D is laughable IMHO. They wore cloth shoulder and elbow pads....and could skate half the rink without a player on them.

How long did Gilly and Clark and their likes stay here.......failing each year? Did management put their heads in the sand ? Year after year failing to win the cup? No big boy pants back then I guess

But the perception was......what heart they had....but the perception here is our star players have no heart.

Only sport that changes rules in playoffs....but thats all good because "thats the way it is"
and then proclaim we go to the extreme when we question it.

Oh well....agree to disagree brother....

They went to the semi finals and played their butts off. Cup winner Gilmour was one best players on the planet when he was with the Leafs and as the games got tougher they played harder.

Hockey is too tough for some.

 

[Mess]

I would likely trade Marner, not because he isn't an outstanding player, but because of his contract and the Leafs have to put their foot in the ground and break this overpaying streak.

With Matthews he is a franchise #1C and Hart and Rocket winner so he basically can name his price now, but Leafs are also in this position because of the previous contract not being 8 years at his current rate. So even if the price is #13-14 mil you bite the bullet and pay the man.

However after him everything else is fluid.

Nylander comes next up and looking for a nice raise and since he produces like his $11 mil teammates will also seek his fair share of the internal Leafs pie.. If that number comes in the $9 -$9.5 mil range you lock him up long-term as Auston's wingman.. If that price exceeds $10 mil you look at dealing him..

So if Nylander stays then Marner goes for Salary Cap reasons, and if Nylander goes then Marner can stay but you have to play hardball on his next contract to bring it in-line with the industry and not allow Marner to dictate his own terms like last time where Matthews was his only RFA comparable nonsense. The leverage the Leafs have despite Marner having a full NMC in his contract is that he is a hometown boy that would like to stay in Toronto, his Pal Auston is here locked up long-term and so a home-town discount after and over-payment on the previous contract should be able to bring his contract is at a manageable amount.

Brad Treliving needs to stay frosty and hold the line this time round. IMO

 

[Da Mash]

They went to the semi finals and played their butts off. Cup winner Gilmour was one best players on the planet when he was with the Leafs and as the games got tougher they played harder.

Hockey is too tough for some.

He still won nothing with the leafs. All that toughness they had...Roberts and Domi and Tucker....etc.

All that toughness and the end result is the same.

Leafs played and lost to the teams that went to the Cup the last 4 yrs....they get no credit for that?

Perception again....Mathews didn't play harder? or did he play less ? Marner? Did Nylander give up?
Holl fought...did he give up? Where was ROR? Was the game too tough for all of them?

Hockey doesn't seem to tough on them when the rules are enforced during the regular season. Playing 82 games isn't easy is it?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I agree its hard to take. But I also accept the fact that the rules change to hinder their effectiveness. Like most star players. McDavid draws the most penalties in the regular season. Come playoff time its non existent.

That bothers me as it hurts the game. All other professional sports protect and want their stars to shine ....especially in playoffs. The NHL doesnt.

No wonder I find Olympic hockey more enjoyable.

Good. Now hopefully our new GM accepts it as well and builds a team that doesn't wilt in the playoffs. And if that means moving Marner even though he's one of the most talented players we've ever had, then do it. I mean Marner's a ton of fun to watch, for me he's the most entertaining player on our team and probably top 3 in the entire league in entertainment value. But still, as much fun as it is to watch him do his thing, winning as a team in the playoffs is more fun and while I suppose it's possible we can go deep as a team with Marner, I can't say it looks very likely at this point.

 

[Nineteen67]

He still won nothing with the leafs. All that toughness they had...Roberts and Domi and Tucker....etc.

All that toughness and the end result is the same.

Leafs played and lost to the teams that went to the Cup the last 4 yrs....they get no credit for that?

Perception again....Mathews didn't play harder? or did he play less ? Marner? Did Nylander give up?
Holl fought...did he give up? Where was ROR? Was the game too tough for all of them?

Hockey doesn't seem to tough on them when the rules are enforced during the regular season. Playing 82 games isn't easy is it?

Those players went to the semi finals. There was stretch the Leafs were a given to make the semis because they had the desire and the talent.
I guess that’s equivalent to winning one round in seven years because a premier goalie forgot how to stop a puck.

Sure playing 82 regular season games is hard, but it’s not as difficult as the the two month grind of playoff hockey. This team hasn’t demonstrated that they have the skill set to play playoff hockey.

 

[Gabriel426]

can you win a cup with Connor McDavid as your best player? so far the answer is no

Having McD is a lot closer than any of our guys. Conf Finals and ONE round of playoffs win.

 

[leafs in five]

Those players went to the semi finals. There was stretch the Leafs were a given to make the semis because they had the desire and the talent.

those players played in a league without a cap, on a team with a payroll that was almost double Ottawa's and many other Eastern conference teams

 

[Nineteen67]

those players played in a league without a cap, on a team with a payroll that was almost double Ottawa's and many other Eastern conference teams

Did they play hard?

 

[saffronleaf]

launch him into outer space