Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[egd27]

Wait a second. Pasta had one better regular season than Marner and a worse post season and Marner deserves less? 11.25mm at a cap of 81.5mm vs a 90mm cap?
We are talking about a contract beginning on the third season from now.
Like I said...12mm quite easily if Marner decides to leave money on the table.
You need to step off the ledge

Looks as though we're heading back to the "you get paid for goals" when discussing why Matthews should get his overpayment and "goals don't matter" when discussing Marner's.

I love this place

 

[Machinae]

I think this is a moot point Gary.
He already makes 11 so he’s not taking less.
I think 90% of the people also believe whatever Matthews gets, Marner’s going to be going after.
It isn’t just making Matthews the highest paid player, you have to be prepared to make Marner the 2nd highest or equal.
He shouldn’t have been paid 11 on his last contract. The assists are great and he’s a talent for sure but he was a 20 goal scoring winger at the time. Dubas messed up and left no room but to go above 11. Instead of going to 11 now for Marner, you are probably going 12/13.
I would trade him, sign Matthews, sign Nylander and get a couple of players for Marner to bring the Cap back in line. Then when JT goes, you have even more flexibility for whoever might be UFA.

This times 1000. The situation is untenable, no other team in the league pays this much for secondary assists, Marner doesn't even drive a line and disappears in the playoffs. Replace him with two or three forwards for his cap and suddenly the team has depth, and still has an elite center and two very good wingers (JT/WM)

 

[ToneDog]

Looks as though we're heading back to the "you get paid for goals" when discussing why Matthews should get his overpayment and "goals don't matter" when discussing Marner's.

I love this place

It is the usual suspects with their agendas. I have no idea what horse they have in the race that makes them fight tooth and nail for their agendas when the proof is in the pudding 6 years straight.

 

[egd27]

72% say trade Marner. Winner, winner chicken dinner. You are not fixing the cap issue by moving Nylander and Tavares is not going on LTIR.

All one has to do is watch the SCF and they can see our guys can't play that style. WTF is Shanny watching these days ??

Marner to Columbus would be a fun thread.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think this is a moot point Gary.
He already makes 11 so he’s not taking less.
I think 90% of the people also believe whatever Matthews gets, Marner’s going to be going after.
It isn’t just making Matthews the highest paid player, you have to be prepared to make Marner the 2nd highest or equal.
He shouldn’t have been paid 11 on his last contract. The assists are great and he’s a talent for sure but he was a 20 goal scoring winger at the time. Dubas messed up and left no room but to go above 11. Instead of going to 11 now for Marner, you are probably going 12/13.
I would trade him, sign Matthews, sign Nylander and get a couple of players for Marner to bring the Cap back in line. Then when JT goes, you have even more flexibility for whoever might be UFA.

I was just curious to see if that poster had the guts to name a number. I feel like you could say pay Marner's a max contract and he'd say sure, worth every penny.

 

[Notsince67]

72% say trade Marner. Winner, winner chicken dinner. You are not fixing the cap issue by moving Nylander and Tavares is not going on LTIR.

All one has to do is watch the SCF and they can see our guys can't play that style. WTF is Shanny watching these days ??

OK you win. Leafs aren't doing it but you always have a cheap appeal to authority to pretend something is happening when it won't.
Let's call it a metaphorical running out of town if you like.
You can pretend Marner isn't on the team next year while you are eating your chicken dinner.

 

[Mess]

72% say trade Marner. Winner, winner chicken dinner. You are not fixing the cap issue by moving Nylander and Tavares is not going on LTIR.

All one has to do is watch the SCF and they can see our guys can't play that style. WTF is Shanny watching these days ??

Marner could fix his own problem by taking a pay-cut on his next deal to stay.

If Matthews is already re-signed at this time and committed long term, and if Marner a local Ontario kid does not want to leave the Leafs then bringing his salary down and in line with the market giving Toronto a credit on his current deal that overpaid him by $2-3 mil should be an option. At the time a year prior he was asking for the Draisatil deal at 8 X $8.5 mil and even at that rate and comparing that directly to the player that Leon has become and rate at which he produces would still leave questions if this is a fair comparable for Mitch all things considered.

Something like 6 years at $9.5 mil (matching Kucherov, Rantanen etc who returned Cups at that rate) or even more current Matthew Tkachuk playing in the SCF and among the playoff scoring leaders with 5 GWG in the playoffs just signed for 8 years at $9.5 mil. Marner hasn't even earned that amount compared on those players playoff returns at that price point.

Trading isn't the only option on the table as market correction down in-line with the rest of the NHL also a possibilty to keep the gang together, but create more cap space to build around them.

 

[Notsince67]

Looks as though we're heading back to the "you get paid for goals" when discussing why Matthews should get his overpayment and "goals don't matter" when discussing Marner's.

I love this place

Let's stick to your fine contract valuations. You might not like the way the mechanics work much like the flat earthers don't like the physics. That means regardless of how much these guys actually sign for, you can claim you are always right and that the mechanics of NHL contracts are all wrong. Feel better?

 

[ToneDog]

OK you win. Leafs aren't doing it but you always have a cheap appeal to authority to pretend something is happening when it won't.
Let's call it a metaphorical running out of town if you like.
You can pretend Marner isn't on the team next year while you are eating your chicken dinner.

When have the Leafs ever done the right thing ?? Clarke for Sundin only to bring Clarke back for a package that included the #4OA pick, Roberto Luongo.

Yes, they are bringing the core back and the results will be the same.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner could fix his own problem by taking a pay-cut on his next deal to stay.

If Matthews is already re-signed at this time and committed long term, and if Marner a local Ontario kid does not want to leave the Leafs then bringing his salary down and in line with the market giving Toronto a credit on his current deal that overpaid him by $2-3 mil should be an option. At the time a year prior he was asking for the Draisatil deal at 8 X $8.5 mil and even at that rate and comparing that directly to the player that Leon has become and rate at which he produces would still leave questions if this is a fair comparable for Mitch all things considered.

Something like 6 years at $9.5 mil (matching Kucherov, Rantanen etc who returned Cups at that rate) or even more current Matthew Tkachuk playing in the SCF and among the playoff scoring leaders with 5 GWG in the playoffs just signed for 8 years at $9.5 mil. Marner hasn't even earned that amount compared on those players playoff returns at that price point.

Trading isn't the only option on the table as market correction down in-line with the rest of the NHL also a possibilty to keep the gang together, but create more cap space to build around them.

In two years, Tavares will be off the books so there will be enough money to continue to overpay Marner and it won't have as much as an impact IMO. With the cap supposedly rising by then, Marner will command at least $12m assuming he puts up 100 points the next two seasons. That in there could be considered a pay cut.

Question is do you want to run these 4 back a 6th time ??

 

[ULF_55]

He should be granted the Stamkos offer.

Shop yourself around the league as UFA and if you get a deal you can't refuse take it, otherwise Leafs have $10,930,000 on the table for you.

Stamkos went back to Tampa for a deal that helped the team, but he was a team player.

 

[Fogelhund]

I certainly agree with those people, who suggest that if these players took less, we'd be able to ice a better, more balanced team.

I keep coming back to Matthews shooting issues though, and his alleged injured wrist. If Matthews was fully healthy, and shooting the way he can... are we having this exact same conversation? If Matty scores 3-4 more goals, it's possible we are going more than two rounds. If Matty is scoring more goals, then Marner is also putting up more assists... and then they both look better, and the team does better.

Without Matthews having his elite shooting ability, neither Marner, nor Matthews deserve raises. Without Matthews elite shooting ability, this team as constructed isn't going anywhere, at any point. To me, if Matthews doesn't return to the 21/22 regular season shooter, and find a way to also be that guy in the playoffs, the rest of these conversations are pretty meaningless. You pay that guy this rumoured $12-14 mil, and he has this messed up wrist... It's just a no for me... We finally get an elite C, and he has wrist issues... this franchise is cursed.

 

[IPS]

The league leader in ES scoring of one year ago Johnny Gaudreau got 9.75 on the open market as a UFA squarely in his prime.

David Pastrnak is a top-3 goal scorer in the league and it is obvious as all hell that scoring goals gets you paid more in this league, not assists. He also just scored 60 goals and had a point total that Marner hasn't come anywhere near in his career.

Marner demanding anything north of 12 is lunacy of the highest degree and anyone who thinks he's worth that should be laughed off the board. He's definitely not worth his current contract (by virtue of what his comparable are making) and as far as I'm concerned - he doesn't deserve anything higher than what he's making right now, he deserves lower. Dubas' past laughable overpayment on him shouldn't effect him today.

I think Gaudreau's contract should be a good bar for him. Small playmaking wingers are obviously viewed as less valuable than top-end goal scorers.

 

[IPS]

Looks as though we're heading back to the "you get paid for goals" when discussing why Matthews should get his overpayment and "goals don't matter" when discussing Marner's.

I love this place

There's a pretty big history of players who score the most goals usually being the highest paid ones in the league. And if it's not them, it's super high-end #1C's.

Playmaking wingers of Marner's variety - not so much. These players are usually never near the top of highest paid players in the league.

 

[Craig Button]

It’ll help them be cup competitive moving forward. It’s not like they’re cup competitive with Marner.

This comment was brought to you by The makers of "DER", and "TUM TA TEEDLEEY TUMTA TER"

 

[ToneDog]

I certainly agree with those people, who suggest that if these players took less, we'd be able to ice a better, more balanced team.

I keep coming back to Matthews shooting issues though, and his alleged injured wrist. If Matthews was fully healthy, and shooting the way he can... are we having this exact same conversation? If Matty scores 3-4 more goals, it's possible we are going more than two rounds. If Matty is scoring more goals, then Marner is also putting up more assists... and then they both look better, and the team does better.

Without Matthews having his elite shooting ability, neither Marner, nor Matthews deserve raises. Without Matthews elite shooting ability, this team as constructed isn't going anywhere, at any point. To me, if Matthews doesn't return to the 21/22 regular season shooter, and find a way to also be that guy in the playoffs, the rest of these conversations are pretty meaningless. You pay that guy this rumoured $12-14 mil, and he has this messed up wrist... It's just a no for me... We finally get an elite C, and he has wrist issues... this franchise is cursed.

That and Tavares' slow decline tells me we are not winning anything the next two years.

 

[TheDoldrums]

Some things I believe:

- At this point we have enough of a sample size to reasonably assert that our stars perform worse in the playoffs
- Of our three younger stars, Marners play drops off the most in the playoffs
- Matthews does not necessarily need a superstar winger to be effective
- We are good enough to have a bit of a drop in regular season performance while still being a playoff team
- This team needs a shakeup in some fashion

This is why I want to explore trading Marner

 

[egd27]

Let's stick to your fine contract valuations. You might not like the way the mechanics work much like the flat earthers don't like the physics. That means regardless of how much these guys actually sign for, you can claim you are always right and that the mechanics of NHL contracts are all wrong. Feel better?

No idea what point you're trying to make.

 

[egd27]

There's a pretty big history of players who score the most goals usually being the highest paid ones in the league. And if it's not them, it's super high-end #1C's.

Playmaking wingers of Marner's variety - not so much. These players are usually never near the top of highest paid players in the league.

And yet Marner still ranks 7th in the NHL as he completes the 4th year of his contract

 

[Antropovsky]

I love that Treliving said he expects players to not just defend, he expects them to check. I think that was primarily a message to Marner, probably Nylander too.

Playoffs is outright war, and you need to sacrifice to be in it. Players are getting hurt and playing hurt all the time. Imagine if your playing with 11 million dollar Mitch Marner and hes getting away with just not taking part in the physical part of the game? I'm sure every NHL player would love to say naaa you guys go into the puck battle, I'll stand 8' away and look for loose pucks and ill defend these guys at the point and if something pops out I'll be ready.

Some how hes been designated the leafs safety... In all situations both offense and defense, Who just gets to stand in open ice and wait for pucks to pop out of scrums.

I hope Treliving realizes though that once July rolls around and Marners NMC kicks in... It doesn't matter if he wants Marner to check and not defend. Because Marner decides at that point.

 

[Notsince67]

There's a pretty big history of players who score the most goals usually being the highest paid ones in the league. And if it's not them, it's super high-end #1C's.

Playmaking wingers of Marner's variety - not so much. These players are usually never near the top of highest paid players in the league.

Look. You can say this and I could name Patrick Kane to which you would say Marner didn't win cup to which I would say neither did Pasta and there goes the goals vs assists argument substituted for the most convenient excuses available to justify why a 2x 1st team all star, top point producer on a top team should effectively be paid far less than he was. The made up formulas that are exposed here make zero sense.
Pretending that Marners on ice impact is not significant in the league is totally ridiculous.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Look. You can say this and I could name Patrick Kane to which you would say Marner didn't win cup to which I would say neither did Pasta and there goes the goals vs assists argument substituted for the most convenient excuses available to justify why a 2x 1st team all star, top point producer on a top team should effectively be paid far less than he was. The made up formulas that are exposed here make zero sense.
Pretending that Marners on ice impact is not significant in the league is totally ridiculous.

Yet you refuse to answer the question - what in your opinion is a fair contract for Marner? On an 8 year deal, is 14mm fair? Or is that too much, or too little?

Easy to criticize everyone without taking a stance yourself so how about you put up or shut up.

 

[notdoneyet]

The league leader in ES scoring of one year ago Johnny Gaudreau got 9.75 on the open market as a UFA squarely in his prime.

David Pastrnak is a top-3 goal scorer in the league and it is obvious as all hell that scoring goals gets you paid more in this league, not assists. He also just scored 60 goals and had a point total that Marner hasn't come anywhere near in his career.

Marner demanding anything north of 12 is lunacy of the highest degree and anyone who thinks he's worth that should be laughed off the board. He's definitely not worth his current contract (by virtue of what his comparable are making) and as far as I'm concerned - he doesn't deserve anything higher than what he's making right now, he deserves lower. Dubas' past laughable overpayment on him shouldn't effect him today.

I think Gaudreau's contract should be a good bar for him. Small playmaking wingers are obviously viewed as less valuable than top-end goal scorers.

Why should matthews get more than pasternak
Matthews is the guy to trade
He doesn’t have that extra gear to be a game changer

 

[Trapper]

Why should matthews get more than pasternak
Matthews is the guy to trade
He doesn’t have that extra gear to be a game changer

I would like to see Matthews with an altered core. He is still a top core center in the league. Eichel had issues, but surrounded with a team that play like men, heavy North/south, a strong D, he is 1 win away from the Cup. Change Marner and Nylander for a true top line D, add some speedy hungry nastier wingers and let’s see.

 

[notdoneyet]

Pasternak will make 11.25
Matthews asking for 13/14

Who in their right mind thinks that matthews is worth 2.75/3.75 more than pasternak

What could we do with thay extra money

If we did this with matthews then marner would have no choice but accept less also

If that is matthews ask then trade him immediately
Because money is more important than the team

I would like to see Matthews with an altered core. He is still a top core center in the league. Eichel had issues, but surrounded with a team that play like men, heavy North/south, a strong D, he is 1 win away from the Cup. Change Marner and Nylander for a true top line D, add some speedy hungry nastier wingers and let’s see.

Still doesn’t explain why matthews should make more than pasternak
Cant keep making excuses for this guys failure and criticizing the other three