Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[Gary Nylund]

Yeah the puck over the glass has always been one of the dumber things brought up. Haters will grab on to any insignificant nugget they can dream up. Pretty sad.

At least you didn't say that Marner did this only once 5 years ago as you've done many times before, that's progress.

In the playoffs from 2018 to 2021, he got penalized for this 5 times, compared to 6 times for the rest of the team combined and some of those penalties came at very important moments. Seems pretty significant to me but I'm open to hearing why it isn't.

You like to throw around words like dumb ... insignificant ... sad ... but what you've never done is explain why using these words is appropriate. I don't know what you get out of making comments that are arrogant, condescending, insulting and add nothing of substance to the discussion but whatever, as long as you're having fun I guess it's all good.

 

[Antropovsky]

Mitch has slow starts. He'll ramp up his production and then flirt with 100 points. Real test, like with everyone else, will be the playoffs.

He's literally failed in every one of the playoffs he's been in. 6 years of them. Not just offensively, but he's failed defensively, with his 5 playoff delay of game penalties, his numerous giveaways that have led directly to losses in must win games (vs Montreal, Vs Tampa, vs Florida) and as a leader by constantly blaming media, and even the bottom players on his team for the shortcomings. The test isn't for everyone, others have done well in a couple or a few series offensively, but nobody has failed on all these categories as spectacularly as Marner. Especially relative to his contract.

The disparity between him and the rest of the big 4 is enormous.

 

[notbias]

Getting stupid penalties in playoffs.

If you think that's insignificant, you're not cheering for the Leafs to with the Cup, but that's your choice.

Dream up is just you trying to deny reality, Marner definitely got the puck over the glass 5 times, he is that scared out there.

Some of you are not watching Leafs hockey, just MM advanced stats.

Reaves is a -10 in penalty differential in the last 5 playoffs... and we are complaining about a guy who is +11 over that same time.

It is a weird thing to complain about.

At least if Marner takes the odd dumb penalty, he also draws them.

He's literally failed in every one of the playoffs he's been in. 6 years of them. Not just offensively, but he's failed defensively, with his 5 playoff delay of game penalties, his numerous giveaways that have led directly to losses in must win games (vs Montreal, Vs Tampa, vs Florida) and as a leader by constantly blaming media, and even the bottom players on his team for the shortcomings. The test isn't for everyone, others have done well in a couple or a few series offensively, but nobody has failed on all these categories as spectacularly as Marner. Especially relative to his contract.

The disparity between him and the rest of the big 4 is enormous.

He's PPG over the last 3 years and has a +10 goal differential.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Reaves is a -10 in penalty differential in the last 5 playoffs... and we are complaining about a guy who is +11 over that same time.

It is a weird thing to complain about.

At least if Marner takes the odd dumb penalty, he also draws them.

He's PPG over the last 3 years and has a +10 goal differential.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but comparing Marner to Reaves seems pretty weird.

 

[notbias]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but comparing Marner to Reaves seems pretty weird.

Well, we seem to be complaining about someone who is net-positive on penalties.

Complain about people who are net negative or the lack of Marner's scoring from 5 years ago.

It seems weird to complain about the puck over the glass from 3 years ago or complain about how he is not producing when he is PPG over the last 3 years and last year he put up 14 in 11.

 

[Arzak]

Reaves is a -10 in penalty differential in the last 5 playoffs... and we are complaining about a guy who is +11 over that same time.

It is a weird thing to complain about.

At least if Marner takes the odd dumb penalty, he also draws them.



He's PPG over the last 3 years and has a +10 goal differential.

Oh I see the script. Marner takes dumb penalty? Let's point to Reaves. Marner not playing well games 5-7 ? Let's go with Kucherov in game 7s on this one.

As long as Mitch can point to someone else, all is good.

For the record, Reaves is also not worth $11M/

 

[notbias]

Oh I see the script. Marker takes dumb penalty? Let's point to Reaves. Marner not playing well games 5-7 ? Let's go with Kucherov in game 7s on this one.

As long as Mitch can point to someone else, all is good.

For the record, Reaves is also not worth $11M/

Reaves isn't worth league min, that is irrelevant.

Marner positively impacts the team despite your best efforts to say he doesn't.

Do you realize that Marner producing well during the early games helps us get to the game 5/6/7?

Maybe if he sucked at the start but was a stud in later games we are out in 4/5 every year.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Trade Marner Votes: 416 67.9%

cya

 

[Dekes For Days]

Getting stupid penalties in playoffs.

If we want to talk penalties, Marner is a Leaf-leading +10 in net penalties drawn vs. taken in the playoffs.

 

[Stephen]

He's literally failed in every one of the playoffs he's been in. 6 years of them. Not just offensively, but he's failed defensively, with his 5 playoff delay of game penalties, his numerous giveaways that have led directly to losses in must win games (vs Montreal, Vs Tampa, vs Florida) and as a leader by constantly blaming media, and even the bottom players on his team for the shortcomings. The test isn't for everyone, others have done well in a couple or a few series offensively, but nobody has failed on all these categories as spectacularly as Marner. Especially relative to his contract.

The disparity between him and the rest of the big 4 is enormous.

We also don't necessarily need Marner to be the spearhead of any Leaf playoff run, or for his personality to shape the narrative of a Leafs championship pursuit. A Matthews as Batman and Marner and Nylander as co-Robin's doing different things and stepping up at different times is completely acceptable to me... I just don't want to see Marner leaned on as a co-alpha, struggling under the weight, crumbling under expectations.

The salary piece will be interesting to navigate. I would basically want to see Marner get the same contract on an extension, and have Nylander and Tavares swap cap hits. That basically keeps the Big 4 intact and you can keep trying this formula, but we aren't paying inflation on all 4 contracts.

 

[Stephen]

Reaves isn't worth league min, that is irrelevant.

Marner positively impacts the team despite your best efforts to say he doesn't.

Do you realize that Marner producing well during the early games helps us get to the game 5/6/7?

Maybe if he sucked at the start but was a stud in later games we are out in 4/5 every year.

Marner doesn't always play well at the start of a series either. Take the 3 A he scored in Game 1 vs Tampa in Game 1 when the Leafs lost 7-3. The whole team was flat out awful and so was Marner. Yet he had an eye popping stats line from that night... I even made note the worst thing about that 3 A night is it will give everyone a statistical smokescreen and completely distort the picture later on. Here we are.

 

[Antropovsky]

Well, we seem to be complaining about someone who is net-positive on penalties.

Complain about people who are net negative or the lack of Marner's scoring from 5 years ago.

It seems weird to complain about the puck over the glass from 3 years ago or complain about how he is not producing when he is PPG over the last 3 years and last year he put up 14 in 11.

It's one thing to pay him 11 million and he just not produce in games 5-7 of the playoffs. But each series his giveaways actually lead to gwg goals against in these elimination games! I can link at least 5-7 plays by Marner dating back to the Montreal series, where his awful and soft play leads to the puck being in our net. They aren't just bad, they are disastrous decisions he makes. Most of them leading to gwg against.

 

[Stephen]

It's one thing to pay him 11 million and he just not produce in games 5-7 of the playoffs. But each series his giveaways actually lead to gwg goals against in these elimination games! I can link at least 5-7 plays by Marner dating back to the Montreal series, where his awful and soft play leads to the puck being in our net. They aren't just bad, they are disastrous decisions he makes. Most of them leading to gwg against.

I don't think Marner's issues boil down to production or being on the wrong end of a series losing goal... it's more that he doesn't seem to play with the confidence and freedom he exhibits during the regular season... because he feels the pressure of the moment to be The Man... but he's not The Man. And he doesn't necessarily have to be.

 

[francis246]

Getting stupid penalties in playoffs.

If you think that's insignificant, you're not cheering for the Leafs to with the Cup, but that's your choice.

Dream up is just you trying to deny reality, Marner definitely got the puck over the glass 5 times, he is that scared out there.

Some of you are not watching Leafs hockey, just MM advanced stats.

I agree that getting stupid penalities in the playoffs is detrimental but I can’t recall if Marner’s penalities outside of the Montreal series directly led to a game loss.

I think it’s tough to put it all on him. The reality is collectively as a group they under perform. That has to change, whether it’s bad penalties, lack of goal scoring, bad goaltending. To me it’s everything together that’s frustrating. I just find it silly we blame one guy lol. Matthews and Marner were equally horrible in the Florida series!

Marner doesn't always play well at the start of a series either. Take the 3 A he scored in Game 1 vs Tampa in Game 1 when the Leafs lost 7-3. The whole team was flat out awful and so was Marner. Yet he had an eye popping stats line from that night... I even made note the worst thing about that 3 A night is it will give everyone a statistical smokescreen and completely distort the picture later on. Here we are.

Stephen, 3 points is still 3 points. Like what are we saying here? Outside of primary and secondary assists there’s no other recognized qualitative way to describe assists. Just seems like another attempt to try and discredit him.

He still got 3 points while other on the team got zero or were complete non factors. At the end of the day playing well or having a better “effort” doesn’t win you games, you need to have that combined with actually scoring. If he had a great game but had a stat line of 0, this place would lose their shit. So let’s stop with this bad 3 point night. It’s nonsense.

 

[francis246]

We also don't necessarily need Marner to be the spearhead of any Leaf playoff run, or for his personality to shape the narrative of a Leafs championship pursuit. A Matthews as Batman and Marner and Nylander as co-Robin's doing different things and stepping up at different times is completely acceptable to me... I just don't want to see Marner leaned on as a co-alpha, struggling under the weight, crumbling under expectations.

The salary piece will be interesting to navigate. I would basically want to see Marner get the same contract on an extension, and have Nylander and Tavares swap cap hits. That basically keeps the Big 4 intact and you can keep trying this formula, but we aren't paying inflation on all 4 contracts.

Wouldn’t Matthews actually need to step up and be Batman then? Cause I think we are all still waiting for that to happen, yet people are bitching about Marner.

 

[Stephen]

Stephen, 3 points is still 3 points. Like what are we saying here? Outside of primary and secondary assists there’s no other recognized qualitative way to describe assists. Just seems like another attempt to try and discredit him.

He still got 3 points while other on the team got zero or were complete non factors. At the end of the day playing well or having a better “effort” doesn’t win you games, you need to have that combined with actually scoring. If he had a great game but had a stat line of 0, this place would lose their shit. So let’s stop with this bad 3 point night. It’s nonsense.

A 7-3 loss on home ice to open the playoffs is a bad night for the whole team. We're taking about game one of the redemption tour vs the team that knocked you out the year prior. My point is 6 months after an event like that people will usually take the context out, hold up the 3 assists and say "Marner did his job." No he didn't. It was 3-0 by the time he bagged a couple of secondary assists to make it 3-2, and after the Lightning blew it open to make it 7-2 he found Jarnkrok for a tap in.



BTW, the same criticism applies to all four of the Big 4.

 

[Antropovsky]

I don't think Marner's issues boil down to production or being on the wrong end of a series losing goal... it's more that he doesn't seem to play with the confidence and freedom he exhibits during the regular season... because he feels the pressure of the moment to be The Man... but he's not The Man. And he doesn't necessarily have to be.

I agree that I think the pressure gets to him and that he has a great desire to be "the man". However I don't think he has the skillset to be successful in the playoffs. He's small, very weak, on the slow side and has a weak shot. Couple this with zero grit and a fear of physical hockey. He looks like a 10 year old playing with adults, literally flinching if an opponent gets close enough to touch him.

In the season, he is most successful skating the perimeter looking for sleeping defensive players and threading passes. Or picking off lazy passes. However, once the playoffs come around these types of plays all but dry up. Team's are playing their best games, and low hanging fruit isn't there anymore. When that happens he doesn't have elite speed, an elite shot or a net presence to fall back on. He just keeps trying the same thing over and over and failing.

 

[francis246]

A 7-3 loss on home ice to open the playoffs is a bad night for the whole team. We're taking about game one of the redemption tour vs the team that knocked you out the year prior. My point is 6 months after an event like that people will usually take the context out, hold up the 3 assists and say "Marner did his job." No he didn't. It was 3-0 by the time he bagged a couple of secondary assists to make it 3-2, and after the Lightning blew it open to make it 7-2 he found Jarnkrok for a tap in.



BTW, the same criticism applies to all four of the Big 4.

Like I said if he brings a better effort and we still lose and his stat line was zero people would still be upset so I don’t know what you’re arguing here really?

No points but a stronger effort is better? Maybe but like I said people would just then crucify him for not putting up any points.

It seems like a very minor thing to pick on to try and discredit him.

I just find it funny how this argument is used for Marner but it never applies to anyone else. Jack Eichel had 0 goals in his last 11 games in the playoffs and we had people raving about him on here this summer cause he racked up a bunch of assists.

 

[Stephen]

Like I said if he brings a better effort and we still lose and his stat line was zero people would still be upset so I don’t know what you’re arguing here really?

No points but a stronger effort is better? Maybe but like I said people would just then crucify him for not putting up any points.

It seems like a very minor thing to pick on to try and discredit him.

All I’m saying is don’t tell me “Marner brings it at the start of the playoffs” by citing a game like Game 1 where clearly the entire team laid an egg but somehow he’s got a nice stats line. We all know nobody brought it.

Same thing goes for Willie by the way. His soft turnover at the start of Game 2 is what ultimately torpedoed their effort to tie the series, set up the Marner Matthews miscue a shift later… and all of a sudden all momentum was gone… so I’d push back on the notion that “Willie brings it…”

I’d also dispute the claim Matthews brought it. He was invisible in the Tampa series up until the Game 3 comeback. And scored a clutch one in Game 6. Then he wasn’t very good vs Florida.

So how about we just hold them to a higher standard and just give them their flowers when they’ve actually won a couple of rounds.

 

[francis246]

All I’m saying is don’t tell me “Marner brings it at the start of the playoffs” by citing a game like Game 1 where clearly the entire team laid an egg but somehow he’s got a nice stats line. We all know nobody brought it.

Same thing goes for Willie by the way. His soft turnover at the start of Game 2 is what ultimately torpedoed their effort to tie the series, set up the Marner Matthews miscue a shift later… and all of a sudden all momentum was gone… so I’d push back on the notion that “Willie brings it…”

I’d also dispute the claim Matthews brought it. He was invisible in the Tampa series up until the Game 3 comeback. And scored a clutch one in Game 6. Then he wasn’t very good vs Florida.

So how about we just hold them to a higher standard and just give them their flowers when they’ve actually won a couple of rounds.

Fair I think we are arguing the same point. A higher standard needs to be held for all of the star players in Toronto

 

[Stephen]

Fair I think we are arguing the same point. A higher standard needs to be held for all of the star players in Toronto

Yep that’s why I’m saying. And when they hit those marks they’ll deserve their kudos and we’ll all be happy to see it.

 

[Antropovsky]

A 7-3 loss on home ice to open the playoffs is a bad night for the whole team. We're taking about game one of the redemption tour vs the team that knocked you out the year prior. My point is 6 months after an event like that people will usually take the context out, hold up the 3 assists and say "Marner did his job." No he didn't. It was 3-0 by the time he bagged a couple of secondary assists to make it 3-2, and after the Lightning blew it open to make it 7-2 he found Jarnkrok for a tap in.



BTW, the same criticism applies to all four of the Big 4.

First off, as @Stephen noted this is the Leafs third goal, of a 7-2 deficit with 12 mins left in the 3rd.

Second... This is exactly why Matthews never gets enough credit. And why Marner rides his coat tails. Without numerous elite plays by Matthews, this play doesn't happen. Marner actually makes two low percentage plays that Matthews saves him from.

- First Matthews makes a great defensive play, chasing down the Tampa forward along the boards, gets his stick on the Tampa bay players pass and finishes his hit. The puck deflects to Marner (who is standing still - give him a selke!) and he begins skating with the puck. Matthews doesn't hesitate after the check and transitions directly to the offensive attack.

- Marner carrying the puck. Quickly gets caught from behind and gives the puck away - - howeve, Matthews picks off the very next Tampa pass and carries the puck with speed over the offensive blue line. He attacks the zone and drops the puck to Marner.
- Marner makes a low percentage play back to Matthews, and Matthews miraculously finds the puck and drops it back to Marner.
- Marner makes the pass to Jarnkrok for the goal.

95% of this play is Matthews.

 

[notbias]

Marner doesn't always play well at the start of a series either. Take the 3 A he scored in Game 1 vs Tampa in Game 1 when the Leafs lost 7-3. The whole team was flat out awful and so was Marner. Yet he had an eye popping stats line from that night... I even made note the worst thing about that 3 A night is it will give everyone a statistical smokescreen and completely distort the picture later on. Here we are.

There are nights when he plays well and puts up 0 points, what is the point here?

xGF might help you more here, but it'd hurt in something like the Montreal series, so use it if you'd like.

It's one thing to pay him 11 million and he just not produce in games 5-7 of the playoffs. But each series his giveaways actually lead to gwg goals against in these elimination games! I can link at least 5-7 plays by Marner dating back to the Montreal series, where his awful and soft play leads to the puck being in our net. They aren't just bad, they are disastrous decisions he makes. Most of them leading to gwg against.

He is still ahead in goal differential... so he is a positive player.

Even the Montreal series.

 

[Antropovsky]

Yep that’s why I’m saying. And when they hit those marks they’ll deserve their kudos and we’ll all be happy to see it.

Entirely disagree, Matthews literally needs to create something from nothing to get his points. That 7-2 play that @francis246 actually used to highlight Marner, just shows how much Matthews is carrying Marner.

There are numerous plays like this, where you break them down and Matthews is literally making numerous absolute elite plays to create goals for his line.

- This game 5 game winning goal vs Tampa was similar.. He forechecks, throws a huge hit, loosens the puck and Marner whose standing still is the beneficiary. Matthews transition from the hit to getting back on the attack and into a scoring lane is incredible!



- Here is another one where Matthews throws a huge hit on an unsuspecting Mcdonagh and while falling tips the puck to Marner who has room to makes the easy pass to Bunting. This play by Matthews is incredible!




However, not surprisingly some are trying to credit Marner for these amazing plays by Matthews because "Marner got a point from it!"

Great that Marner is making the passes...but make no mistake, Matthews creates the play and he space for Marner on each of the plays. Space Marner just can't create by himself or for his teammates.

 

[arso40]

There are nights when he plays well and puts up 0 points, what is the point here?

xGF might help you more here, but it'd hurt in something like the Montreal series, so use it if you'd like.



He is still ahead in goal differential... so he is a positive player.

Even the Montreal series.

I’d imagine things might have been different if the swapped him and Willy that series cause he was going maybe marner woulda propped up that second line better