Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[francis246]

The links don't work for me, I guess I'll take your word for it.

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Marner's game 1-4 has nothing to do with Marner's game 5-6-7, that's stating the obvious so not sure what your point is. Same goes for "stats alone ...".

All I'm saying is that Marner's production plummets when the pressure is cranked up, the numbers don't lie. If that doesn't bother you and you don't think that detracts from his value as a player then that's fine, we're all entitled to our opinions. And again, Bergoron's number look nothing like this

Games 1-4 - 1.19 PPG
Games 5-7 - 0.47 PPG

I think because of site migration the links are all wonky. I’ll try and relink them. But never the less I’m not saying you or others are. There’s nothing wrong with expecting more based on what they’ve provided so far, which is where I think you and others are. If we are paying him x amount there’s a standard we have for him.

But there have been people who do voice their hate for him and it’s hilarious cause it’s never that crazy. Like you said we should just enjoy the hockey!

 

[IPS]

I am perhaps his worst critique and I don't hate him at all. I think he is a good player. I think he is overpaid, pretty simple. I think JT is overpaid too but his next contract isn't expected to be bigger. Marner seems to be trying to 1 : 1 Matthews as close as possible and they aren't in the same league performance wise. How could I in good conscience give a similar contract to someone like Marner as Matthews. Do you know how unfair that looks the guys below him, or Nylander etc? That sums it up for me.

He made it very clear last negotiation that he only wants to use Matthews as a comparable and wasn't interested in using comparables around the league.

Management made a huge mistake in not shutting down communication with him until he comes back with his head straight.

In no universe do you ever compare playmaking wingers with goal-scoring centers. They've been paid far differently throughout the entire history of the salary cap and for very good reason.

Mitch's camp will most definitely be using this negotiation tactic again.

 

[Gabriel426]

He is great player and I think it could be argue that he is the top RW in the league but even if he isn’t, he is still top 3 RW in the league and top 15 fowards in the league.
Is that so bad?
Why MM needs to be praise as pretty much the GOAT of RW and Leafs and should be up there with Wayne, Mario, Orr and Howe?

 

[Arzak]

It’s important to add context to that stat. I’d be interested to see Marner’s PK minutes relative to him being “dead last at preventing goals”. We all know Marner is overplayed in all situations. More time you spend out there, the more chance you’re out there being scored against. He’s usually first up on the PK even if he was just on the ice while we took the penalty. So I can see that having a negative impact on your PK.

I think it’s important to understand Marner does have good defensive metrics compared to other stars in the game but he’s got faults in his game. Untimely turnovers, lack of goal scoring at times. No one is denying that.

We all know Marner is not the worst option on the team… but can we reduce his minutes and lean on others, yes. Nylander, Knies and Matthews are all capable of killing penalities and should be leaned on.

ok bolded part is a bit of hyperbole

Goals allowed on pk per 60 - listed only players with at least 400 PK min, hence why statistically he is your worst option. No doubt this stat could use more context, if we are down 3-1 in the third we want him to cheat for offence, on the other hand up 3-2 we rather he defend.

That's the issue with fancy stats. While useful it is kind of a circle jerk and I suspect he must know that shot at about 5 MpH got no chance of beating a goalie, but it does wonders for your possession/advanced stats.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think because of site migration the links are all wonky. I’ll try and relink them. But never the less I’m not saying you or others are. There’s nothing wrong with expecting more based on what they’ve provided so far, which is where I think you and others are. If we are paying him x amount there’s a standard we have for him.

But there have been people who do voice their hate for him and it’s hilarious cause it’s never that crazy. Like you said we should just enjoy the hockey!

Yeah I thought it was something like that. No big deal, I'll take your word for it, it would have been interesting to see some of these posts but like I said, no big deal. Let's hope we have a fun game to enjoy tonight!

 

[Gabriel426]

He made it very clear last negotiation that he only wants to use Matthews as a comparable and wasn't interested in using comparables around the league.

Management made a huge mistake in not shutting down communication with him until he comes back with his head straight.

In no universe do you ever compare playmaking wingers with goal-scoring centers. They've been paid far differently throughout the entire history of the salary cap and for very good reason.

Mitch's camp will most definitely be using this negotiation tactic again.

Imagine both Drai and MM head into UFA that summer. And Leaf’s choose Drai over MM at the same cap? Or Drai signs a new deal with Oilers in the summer for 12.8mil, would MM asks for 13mil?

 

[francis246]

Yeah I thought it was something like that. No big deal, I'll take your word for it, it would have been interesting to see some of these posts but like I said, no big deal. Let's hope we have a fun game to enjoy tonight!

And I do apologize for a couple of weeks ago I crossed a line and I shouldn’t have let it get personal. Sorry for that.

 

[Gary Nylund]

maybe think about it for a few minutes, idk

you're welcome, and thanks for sharing your opinion that nobody hates Marner

And I thank you for sharing your opinions as well. I'll just add that maybe some people do hate Marner, I can't say for sure one way or the other. All I can say is that I've never seen anyone post "I hate Marner" or words to that effect but I don't read every post here so it's obviously possible I missed it. Or maybe I'm taking the concept of hate too literally, I do understand that some people really seem to have it in for him, hate just seems like a really strong word to use about a person we don't even know really.

And I do apologize for a couple of weeks ago I crossed a line and I shouldn’t have let it get personal. Sorry for that.

Wow! I was not expecting that, that's something you hardly ever see around here, I do appreciate that and you are now officially among the posters who I have a ton of respect for. I'll just add that I sometimes post in a way that I'm not exactly proud of later and while most of the time I like to think I'm pretty reasonable, I can do better and your post has inspired me to do just that!

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yep for sure matthews is a better player, just change absolutly nothing...

Yes Matthews making everyone playing with better

The same way Marner is a better winger than Nylander and making everyone around him better and thats including Matthews...

keefe using his best center with his best RW... using his 2nd best C with his second best RW. I just dont know where you want to go

But he still in great compagny
Tampa actual 2c is paul and cirelli 3C
Zacha, poitras, coyle are boston c
Bennett is florida 2C
Mittelstadt 2C in buffalo
Norris 2C in ottawa
Compher 2C in detroit
Dach 2C in MTL

Kotkanieni 2c in Carolina
Chytil 2c/ trochek 3c in NYR
Malkin at 37 in Pits
Kuznetsov in was
Nelson in long island
Laughton in philly
Jenner in columbus
Hischier in NJ

Outside of maybe hishier ( who still to prove after a great season) tavares is probably actually best 2C in the east and for you its not enough for Nylander... come on

Matthews and nylander in playoff thats didn't worked every time keefe tried it, they was unable to move out of their own zone most of the time and so they was wasting their best weapon in Matthews. Thats why keefe split both pretty quickly in playoff and doesn't come back this season with matthews/ nylander because keefe preparing his team for the only team goal, win a cup.

You only answered half the question, but still, by agreeing that Matthews is better than JT, you proved my point. Thanks.

 

[thusk]

You only answered half the question, but still, by agreeing that Matthews is better than JT, you proved my point. Thanks.

Yes tavares and nylander having chemistry together contrairly to everything you trying to say...

Did he producing more with matthews, for sure like 99% player of NHL who will produce at higher rate with one of 5 best NHL player, that doesn't mean nylander dont have chemistry with nylander... just meaning matthews is a better player than tavares, something everybody in the World already know.

 

[thewave]

Yes tavares and nylander having chemistry together contrairly to everything you trying to say...

Did he producing more with matthews, for sure like 99% player of NHL who will produce at higher rate with one of 5 best NHL player, that doesn't mean nylander dont have chemistry with nylander... just meaning matthews is a better player than tavares, something everybody in the World already know.

Imagine if Nylander demanded to be on Matthews line like MM. His point totals would already be way up and for all we know it would be WN with the bigger contract. They are both good players and yes Matthews is going to make anyone on his line better. He is the superstar after all.

 

[leafs in five]

he demands to be on Matthews' line?

 

[Thornbury]

Imagine both Drai and MM head into UFA that summer. And Leaf’s choose Drai over MM at the same cap? Or Drai signs a new deal with Oilers in the summer for 12.8mil, would MM asks for 13mil?

The reality is that MM has zero chance that any other team would offer him a penny more than his current contract when he is a UFA. I'd love to see him try to play hardball with Treliving and see where it gets him.

 

[leafs in five]

The reality is that MM has zero chance that any other team would offer him a penny more than his current contract when he is a UFA. I'd love to see him try to play hardball with Treliving and see where it gets him.

that doesn't seem like it is "reality" to me

 

[thusk]

Imagine if Nylander demanded to be on Matthews line like MM. His point totals would already be way up and for all we know it would be WN with the bigger contract. They are both good players and yes Matthews is going to make anyone on his line better. He is the superstar after all.

But Matthews is better when hes playing with marner than nylander especially come playoff time...

So whatever what nylander want or not, keefe will do whats he thinking that will make the leafs a better team overal... not everything to make 1 player looking better

 

[thewave]

he demands to be on Matthews' line?

Yes he MM had a stink about not playing on the top line and that it was holding him back from his potential.

Remember it started off WN AM and JT and MM.

 

[Dekes For Days]

he demands to be on Matthews' line?

No, he doesn't. They all play where the coach tells them to, and the coach puts him there because it's the best option.
Unfortunately, some refuse to accept that and spread fake rumours based on nothing.

The reality is that MM has zero chance that any other team would offer him a penny more than his current contract when he is a UFA

Every single team would pay him more, and be thrilled to have him.

 

[leafs in five]

Yes he MM had a stink about not playing on the top line and that it was holding him back from his potential.

Remember it started off WN AM and JT and MM.

no I don't remember that

 

[ACC1224]

he demands to be on Matthews' line?

that doesn't seem like it is "reality" to me

Just todays fantasy to try and discredit a great player. Never show proof, just take their word for it.
Hopefully this means they've evolved from the puck over the glass 5 years ago or game 3 last year.

 

[thewave]

no I don't remember that

That was the conversation back then when the switch happened. It was because JT had a career year 47g with Marner at wing. It was debated at various points in here, media etc Leafs Lunch or what have you. If you are asking was this blatant public admission or request, no. Agent drop to the media, likely because MM camp seem to have a proven history of that sort of garbage.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just todays fantasy to try and discredit a great player. Never show proof, just take their word for it.
Hopefully this means they've evolved from the puck over the glass 5 years ago or game 3 last year.

So you still think the MTL series was played 5 years ago, smh.

 

[Arzak]

Just todays fantasy to try and discredit a great player. Never show proof, just take their word for it.
Hopefully this means they've evolved from the puck over the glass 5 years ago or game 3 last year.

Do you mean that one time five years ago, when he was too scared to take a hit and threw a puck over the glass?

2018 Game 2: Puck over glass
2018 Game 6: Puck over glass
2019 Game 5: Puck over glass
2021 Game 1: Puck over glass
2021 Game 6: Puck over glass

Puck (singular ) over the glass , more like a bag of pucks, year after year and when he's not dishing souvenirs for fans, we can still experience game 3 like we did this year?

Playoff beast that one.

 

[thusk]

It’s important to add context to that stat. I’d be interested to see Marner’s PK minutes relative to him being “dead last at preventing goals”. We all know Marner is overplayed in all situations. More time you spend out there, the more chance you’re out there being scored against. He’s usually first up on the PK even if he was just on the ice while we took the penalty. So I can see that having a negative impact on your PK.

I think it’s important to understand Marner does have good defensive metrics compared to other stars in the game but he’s got faults in his game. Untimely turnovers, lack of goal scoring at times. No one is denying that.

We all know Marner is not the worst option on the team… but can we reduce his minutes and lean on others, yes. Nylander, Knies and Matthews are all capable of killing penalities and should be leaned on.

Yes and no

In regular season and i theory, thats working pretty well... come playoff time... not really

Thing 1
When youre shortended in playoff, you absolutly want to reduce as much number of goal allowed in PK... so yes its normal to use your best player in that category to give you that chance

Thing 2 when youre trailing with player do you want to see as much on the ice to raise your chance to come back? Matthees marner nylander tavares and rielly ( we can add klinberg now). So for sure if they trailing most of the time like they did last 21 games... that will raise ice time from your star and be more difficult to keep them fresh

But im totally agree than leafs need to reduce ice time of their starsbut How you reducing their ice time? With great goaltending... stop giving up weak goal every game and have to come back, where youre gonna need to cut your bench on every game. You need to play in tie game or with lead where you will still able to use all your 4 lines...

2 game marner played less than 21 minutes... Minnesota/ Washington... the 2 only game leafs played with lead.

Goaltender having an impact on every player on the ice and nobody having as much impact in a game than him. You want to raise quality of the core 4... get better goaltending and i guarantee you, you will see a huge difference in their intensity and confidence. thats why i really hope Woll is that guy

 

[PromisedLand]

Imagine if Nylander demanded to be on Matthews line like MM. His point totals would already be way up and for all we know it would be WN with the bigger contract. They are both good players and yes Matthews is going to make anyone on his line better. He is the superstar after all.

Matthews is a BEAST!!!

 

[Gary Nylund]

Thing 2 when youre trailing with player do you want to see as much on the ice to raise your chance to come back? Matthees marner nylander tavares and rielly ( we can add klinberg now). So for sure if they trailing most of the time like they did last 21 games... that will raise ice time from your star and be more difficult to keep them fresh

But im totally agree than leafs need to reduce ice time of their starsbut How you reducing their ice time? With great goaltending... stop giving up weak goal every game and have to come back, where youre gonna need to cut your bench on every game. You need to play in tie game or with lead where you will still able to use all your 4 lines...

1st bolded - IMO Keefe should be playing Nylander a LOT more when trailing, that would reduce the burden on M&M.

2nd bolded - If you mean regular season, just play them less, no need to overplay them when trailing. The regular season record matters so little - we're going to make the playoffs and having everyone rested and ready to grind for two months is so much more important than home ice in the playoffs. We're 1-7 in playoff series with this core and that's because we keep choking in game 7's, home ice has nothing to do with it. JMHO.