Mitch Marner (Trade or Keep)?

[Antropovsky]

4:48 and around 6 minutes... that Marner, little play who doesn't look amaizing but extremely important

1st one made a play with his feet and kept the play alive outstead of a losing puck.... matthews scored later

Just won a 1v2 battle in the corner and just ship puck to rielly...thats created space and shooting lane for rielly..

nothing spectacular, some detail who doesn't necessairly appear on stats but extremely important.... on those play thats resulting for assist but he doing it over and over again and that not appear in any stats. Thats Marner and thats why every player playing with become instantly better.

Lol... Notice at 5:06 instead of going to the goal scorer Matthews after the goal, Marner points for an extended period of time at Nylander? That's Marner giving Nylander full credit for the play...because he fully deserved it.

There were a few great plays in this goal, the least of which being Marners easy NHL pass.

1st star of play: Nylander receives the pass and attacks the blueline/offensive zone with speed, pushes the d back, sells shot and draws both defenders before dropping to Marner who's completely alone behind him.

2nd star: Matthews sees his coverage sleeping and attacks the offensive zone with speed, fights off a Perry hook and gets completely wide open.

3rd star: Brodie with the nice tape to tape pass to Nylander to gain the zone.

4th star: Marner with the quick, but easy pass to Matthews. Nobody in passing lane and nobody pressuring the pass.

 

[Zybalto]

Before it was Kuch for some reason, now it's Cirelli, Bergeron and Barkov. When you choose just 1 or 3 out of a much bigger list of star players, that's a textbook example of what cherry picking is. Seems pretty suspicious and is exactly the kind of nonsense that prevents some people from taking your posts seriously.

What the hell are you going on about?

Kuch for some reason? Only the reason I carefully listed out (which you somehow missed) and there was nothing wrong with it. I'm certainly not going to mention him when I'm talking about defensive players so I included known polished defensive players as a comparisan. Marner has great defensive stats in the playoffs. How do you want me to present them and against who?

Then you say all this is an example of cherry picking by providing adequate comparisons. The only thing we learned there is that you should never be taken seriously when you use the term "cherry picking".

I could show more data too but you would just try and discredit those as best you could too right?

 

[thusk]

Lol... Notice at 5:06 instead of going to the goal scorer Matthews after the goal, Marner points for an extended period of time at Nylander? That's Marner giving Nylander full credit for the play...because he fully deserved it.

There were a few great plays in this goal, the least of which being Marners easy NHL pass.

1st star of play: Nylander receives the pass and attacks the blueline/offensive zone with speed, pushes the d back, sells shot and draws both defenders before dropping to Marner who's completely alone behind him.

2nd star: Matthews sees his coverage sleeping and attacks the offensive zone with speed, fights off a Perry hook and gets completely wide open.

3rd star: Brodie with the nice tape to tape pass to Nylander to gain the zone.

4th star: Marner with the quick, but easy pass to Matthews. Nobody in passing lane and nobody pressuring the pass.

1st star of the play is marner

this play started from the begginning when he stop a wild pass from tavares i thing with his left leg, keep control of the puck and bought some time to matthews and nylander to step in the ice before a pass to matthews who tried to deke but missed it but find a way to it to send the puck on brodie stick... if marner doesn't make that play its a losing puck or an icing and nothing happening. His assist no, its nothing spectacular and i doesn't care about his pass to matthews... but the key play of this goal its what he did in neutral zone. Step 1 on this goal where this goal borned

The same way than saturday night knies second goal, the 1st star of this goal was not knies or domi... it was kampf great play in neutral who creating leafs 2v1. Without him, never that play and that goal happenned

 

[notDatsyuk]

Its not misleading to state Marner has more points than any other Leaf over the last 3 playoffs, no matter how you want to spin it.

....and you're the one still ignoring the value of D while claiming Marner had his worst "playoffs" ever despite being the MVP of the series 1 win and one of the best players leaguewide of the first round.

So all of this is over a bad series? (or more accurately 3 bad games in that series)

He's one of the handful players making top 20 salaries in this stupid cap world actually worth the money and people want to trade him?

Crazy talk man.

It's misleading if you base his being the best on that one stat, without including context, which I did for you.

 

[Ashdown2]

do we really have to do this every october ?

yes marner sucks in october. then magically every year hes a 120 point pace player rest of the year ......

 

[Maple Leaf]

do we really have to do this every october ?

yes marner sucks in october. then magically every year hes a 120 point pace player rest of the year ......

How many points in crunch time in game 7

 

[Gary Nylund]

There are absolutely people who hate Marner and again Gary if it doesn’t apply to you, you don’t have to worry about it. No one said “Gary Nylund” hates Marner. I said fans. There are fans on this board who have legit in their posts said they hate Marner, want him gone, call him this or that.

If you say so, I've never once seen anyone here say that they hate Marner myself. Want him gone, calling him this or that, that's different and has been said about many players on the team

Tampa didnt win because of kucherov, stamkos, point offensive scoring... they won because vasilevskiy gave absolutly nothing and tampa was able to take a 1-0 lead late in second or in 3rd period

A win is a win, the goal is to win 4 game... do you think game 7 against florida was more important than game 1-2 where leafs lost bost trailing 2-0 and all the pressure as favorite on their shoulder. Do you think if toronto winning 1st 2 game of that serie and unstead of trailling 3-1, leading 3-1 would be the same. Unstead of watching tv and heard youre chocker everywhere, its not the same than seeing fan happy with stanley cup hope. You dont come back in arena with samr confidence .

If leafs leading 3-1, Do you think he would saw Gudas hitting to the head, hitting people without puck, holding jarnkrok strick... all those play would not happen because just the fear of taking a bad penalty who can cost the season would be enough to avoid it. So game 1 and 2 changed the way panthers played game 5.

Do you think, come back from gm 4 vs tb who was the turning point of the serie was less important than game 6-7..

Every game are extremely important and affecting series...

Every game is important, sure. OK then think about it this way, there is more pressure in game 7 than in game 1, would you agree with that? Same goes for game 5 if the series is tied 2-2, and of course game 6 as well, is that fair? You lose game 1, still a long series, lots of time to turn it around but in game 5 of a 2-2 series, the pressure is ratcheted up several notches now isn't it? And game 7, that's as pressure packed a situation as there is!

The numbers show that Marner produces like a star during the regular season and during the first 4 games of a playoff series but in games 5/6/7, his production drops off a cliff. I don't think it's a coincidence that it's games 5/6/7 where he can't seem to get it done, it seems pretty obvious that he can't handle the pressure and the more pressure there is, the worse he plays.

I really hope he can figure it out, I can only assume that's the problem is somewhere between his ears which is why I'd hire the best sports shrinks money can buy to work with him. He's an enormous talent, one of the most talented players ever to play for Toronto, it would really suck if he never figured it out and went down in history as a choker.

What the hell are you going on about?

Kuch for some reason? Only the reason I carefully listed out (which you somehow missed) and there was nothing wrong with it. I'm certainly not going to mention him when I'm talking about defensive players so I included known polished defensive players as a comparisan. Marner has great defensive stats in the playoffs. How do you want me to present them and against who?

Then you say all this is an example of cherry picking by providing adequate comparisons. The only thing we learned there is that you should never be taken seriously when you use the term "cherry picking".

I could show more data too but you would just try and discredit those as best you could too right?

When there is a long list of players to pick from and you pick just one player in one circumstance, then pick just three (different) players in another, that's a text book example of cherry picking. Stop pretending like you don't understand, it's not that complicated.

See the post below, a good example of a post that is NOT cherry picking. Why am I not shocked that you have no response to this whatsoever?

@Zybalto thoughts?

2023 playoffs:
HDCF - Any high danger scoring chance by the player, outside of the shootout.

M.Tkatchuk: 31 - 1st
Matthews: 21 - 10th
Tavares: 19 - 14th
Nylander 16 - 32nd
Kampf: 10 - 60th
Bunting: 8 - 85th
Jarnkrok 7 - 97th
Knies: 7 - 98th
Oreilly: 6 - 107th
Acciari: 6 - 110th
Kerfoot: 6 - 116th
Marner: 5 - 122th

 

[notDatsyuk]

Since 2021, Kucherov had 2 goal 4 assist in 14 decisive game

Marner had 1 goal 4 assist in 9 decisive game



Yeah nylander had been great at 4v4 and 6v5, been pretty average to bad at 5v5

And the difference of ice time between marner and nylander is not on offensive situation... its because marner is much better defensivly and playing much more on those defensive situation. Like protecting a lead, after a penakty kill but still without the puck, when exemple tampa sending kucherov on the ice and keefe making every thing he can to send marner against kuch line...

Marner making everybody around him better, its not the case for nylander...

Yes in the offensive side he can make his teammate looking better but will make his d looking worst than what they are in the defensive end. His defensive impact last 3-4 season defensive side is probably as high than Simmonds impact..

Yes, if you go strictly 5v5 (which people have been complaining when I do) which looks at only Nylander's time with JT, then JT drags him down to third behind Matty.

Third is really bad.

All the rest of your post is vague speculation.

 

[notDatsyuk]

I think people have to remember Mitch was about as involved in his contract negotiations as he was in the development of the covid vaccine.

These guys all have agents and handlers who make all the decisions when it comes to contracts and to put it on Marner or Nylander or any other player is pure nonsense....and its a good thing they dont get involved. Have you seen these players IQ when it comes to anything non hockey related?

Thats kind of nuts. The fact so many hold a grudge against him for something he's not involved in wrapped up in the dumbest cap system in professional sports.

That's fine. I have no problem at all in blaming his agent and Dubas for him being overpaid.

Personally I've always been able to separate the signing process and the contract from the player and his performance, beyond comparing his performance to his paycheck.

 

[Arzak]

Welcome to chaos.

This thread started just after the playoffs, when Marner had his worst playoffs, most of the team was bad, and his NTC was about to kick in. Hence the "trade or keep" poll. Obviously many posters were very disappointed by his performance in the Panthers' series.

Yes, he is one of the top producers over the last few regular seasons, but much less so in the playoffs. There are a couple of stats which, taken without context and with a lot of vague comments, make it look like he was a team leader. There are a couple of posters who insist on reiterating them, and therefore several other posters who insist on refuting them. It's a vicious cycle.

Add to all that the money we are paying him (somewhere between appropriate and far too much, depending on the poster) and how the team is unbalanced with three forwards making too large a portion of the cap, there are posters who feel the money could be better allocated.

This particular thread should have died the moment his NTC kicked in on June 1st (or July 1st, I forget which), but it keeps being brought back to life.

The trade talk mostly did (some NMC deniers here and there).

It'd be better to have one Player discussion thread, but we have Sunshine and Lollipops appreciation thread, plus this one.


On the other hand, the moment his NMC kicked in, we more or less committed to re-signing him at a premium, which sparkled new debate in the same thread. Not sure, if we can really discuss his cap and how much it'll increase in an appreciation thread.

 

[notdoneyet]

How many points in crunch time in game 7

How many clutch points for any of the big four
If the rest of our big four scored in game sevens we wouldn’t be in this forum
Nylander Tavares marner and especially matthews have all disappeared in the playoffs
Matthews highest paid player in the league taking short term deals to make even more money has played way worse than any of the big four
For that money he should be taking the team on his back and lead us to a cup
Didn’t have a goal against Florida in 5 games

 

[Gary Nylund]

The trade talk mostly did (some NMC deniers here and there).

It'd be better to have one Player discussion thread, but we have Sunshine and Lollipops appreciation thread, plus this one.

On the other hand, the moment his NMC kicked in, we more or less committed to re-signing him at a premium, which sparkled new debate in the same thread. Not sure, if we can really discuss his cap and how much it'll increase in an appreciation thread.

Indeed. That Lollipop thread is just

 

[Arzak]

I think people have to remember Mitch was about as involved in his contract negotiations as he was in the development of the covid vaccine.

These guys all have agents and handlers who make all the decisions when it comes to contracts and to put it on Marner or Nylander or any other player is pure nonsense....and its a good thing they dont get involved. Have you seen these players IQ when it comes to anything non hockey related?

Thats kind of nuts. The fact so many hold a grudge against him for something he's not involved in wrapped up in the dumbest cap system in professional sports.

I wish him all the best, you can't blame anyone for maximizing his earnings, especially if he tasked his agent with getting him the best deal possible (something 99% of the players do, likely with the same wording Marner used). From this very reasonable human standpoint, no one should be angry at Mitch for his contract ( same with JT).

That being said, they don't live in a vacuum, they are aware of the cap and the mystical implication a couple of heavy contracts got on the overall depth and our chances for hoisting Lord Stanley.

The bitching and moaning/discussion is about Leafs competitiveness, SC chances with Marner - his 11M now 12M later contract.


I also don't doubt that his media engagement, merch sales and entertainment factor more than makeup for his salary. That was never in question.

 

[francis246]

This is pretty silly to put it mildly

Go back and read his thread after he signed his extension. I have so many of those posts saved because it was hilarious. We even had a few people equate their honest living to Marner and other stars and their contracts. Or telling us how much of a discount they would have taken if they were in Marner’s spot. I think people forget the meltdowns that happen right after a signing or trade happens. Those threads are crazy moments after.

 

[thusk]

If you say so, I've never once seen anyone here say that they hate Marner myself. Want him gone, calling him this or that, that's different and has been said about many players on the team


Every game is important, sure. OK then think about it this way, there is more pressure in game 7 than in game 1, would you agree with that? Same goes for game 5 if the series is tied 2-2, and of course game 6 as well, is that fair? You lose game 1, still a long series, lots of time to turn it around but in game 5 of a 2-2 series, the pressure is ratcheted up several notches now isn't it? And game 7, that's as pressure packed a situation as there is!

The numbers show that Marner produces like a star during the regular season and during the first 4 games of a playoff series but in games 5/6/7, his production drops off a cliff. I don't think it's a coincidence that it's games 5/6/7 where he can't seem to get it done, it seems pretty obvious that he can't handle the pressure and the more pressure there is, the worse he plays.

I really hope he can figure it out, I can only assume that's the problem is somewhere between his ears which is why I'd hire the best sports shrinks money can buy to work with him. He's an enormous talent, one of the most talented players ever to play for Toronto, it would really suck if he never figured it out and went down in history as a choker.


When there is a long list of players to pick from and you pick just one player in one circumstance, then pick just three (different) players in another, that's a text book example of cherry picking. Stop pretending like you don't understand, it's not that complicated.

See the post below, a good example of a post that is NOT cherry picking. Why am I not shocked that you have no response to this whatsoever?

But you played well enough, you dont have to play with pressure coming with game 7 where big majority of team playing like if it was an overtime especially from a hometown player who liver every leafs failed over years as young fan like us and now as player.

And you dont have to play game 7 where goalie impact drastically raising, biggest leafs weakness last 3 playoff... and adding even more pressurr on foward to overcome that weakness

Youre losing in playoff in tampa, 1 day and rhe stpry is over...

In toronto, you still hear it until day 1 of next playoff

So why focusing so much on being better game 7 unstead of being better game 1 to 6

 

[Gary Nylund]

But you played well enough, you dont have to play with pressure coming with game 7 where big majority of team playing like if it was an overtime especially from a hometown player who liver every leafs failed over years as young fan like us and now as player.

And you dont have to play game 7 where goalie impact drastically raising, biggest leafs weakness last 3 playoff... and adding even more pressurr on foward to overcome that weakness

Youre losing in playoff in tampa, 1 day and rhe stpry is over...

In toronto, you still hear it until day 1 of next playoff

So why focusing so much on being better game 7 unstead of being better game 1 to 6

Would be nice if we swept every series, but unfortunately that's not the reality of the situation and we're stuck with playing these high pressure games.

Marner playoff production
================
Games 1-4 - 1.19 PPG
Games 5-7 - 0.47 PPG

I'm not "focusing" on game 7, I'm pointing out that as the pressure rachets up (games 5/6/7), Marner's production dries up.

 

[thusk]

Yes, if you go strictly 5v5 (which people have been complaining when I do) which looks at only Nylander's time with JT, then JT drags him down to third behind Matty.

Third is really bad.

All the rest of your post is vague speculation.

The save tavares who already at 9 ts this season and easily in top 5 of best 2nd c in the entire NHL, just to dont say top 3...

But for sure a guy ranked 24 th in term of pts and 33 th in NHL at 5v5 since 2020 is not good enough for superstar nylander . For sure he neee to play with one of bewt goal scorer in NHL history... a guy with who he made look awful come playoff with their inability of moving out of defensive zone

 

[Stephen]

Good way to put it.

It's also important to keep in perspective that Matthews is just as much to blame as well. He's been right there with Marner in playing bad at the most important times.

Matthews and Marner don’t work so well when they think of each other as co pilots on that playoff journey. I firmly believe you need a separation between them as Matthews needs to evolve more and more towards that Kopitar do it all franchise beast and away from the dynamic duo mentality with Mitch. When they converge you turn Matthews into Marner and that’s not great. We saw glimpses of that greatness in Game 6 vs Tampa and in Game 3 in the come back.

Marner needs to feel less responsible for the franchise and just be an assassin who can deal the deadly blow but carry the piano on his back. It was odd hearing him talk about the pressure Bedard feels as a 1st overall when you remember he was a 4th overall who came into the league comfortably surrounded with JVR and Bozak. If not for the contract there’s no reason he needs to carry equal share of the weight as a Matthews. And with Nylander coming along he can take a step back as a co number 2.

 

[Stephen]

I thought it made no sense at all but I don't watch cartoons.
Not one person thinks he's above criticism. Some just tire of the same daily criticisms that for the most part don't make a lot of sense.

The froth that some hold for this kid is really strange, no other way to put it.

He lost a portion of the fanbase with the contract. It always goes back to that.

 

[ACC1224]

He lost a portion of the fanbase with the contract. It always goes back to that.

Like Jim Morrison said “people are strange”.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Like Jim Morrison said “people are strange”.

Well if Jim Morrison said it ...

 

[34]

Marner is not worth $10M a season. If he is willing to take around 8 then keep him. If not, good riddance.

 

[Zybalto]

When there is a long list of players to pick from and you pick just one player in one circumstance, then pick just three (different) players in another, that's a text book example of cherry picking. Stop pretending like you don't understand, it's not that complicated.

See the post below, a good example of a post that is NOT cherry picking. Why am I not shocked that you have no response to this whatsoever?

I was trying to ignore that as someone already laughably called him out and also the source being a guy I called out for posting an actual doctored graph earlier but really, I love you tried to use that as it's a literal example of cherry picking.

A chart that doesn't take into account playmaking ability or defense?

Seems perfect! Let's judge Marner on that!

You see Matthews/Tavares/Nylander being so high up there? How are they getting all those chances?

I got an idea, Lets go back and roast Adam Oates for being at the bottom of those lists too!

Jeez

I see what you are saying though and I'll give you a more thorough one in a bit. I just thought the number and REL with a couple examples would be enough.

 

[ToneDog]

Marner is not worth $10M a season. If he is willing to take around 8 then keep him. If not, good riddance.

If he puts up 2x90+ point seasons, he will be worth at least $11m in two years (he's not taking a paycut). You could move on if he soils his pants the next two playoffs. You could ask him to waive his NMC this summer if you want to go in a different direction.

 

[Phion Keneuf]

Wish he didn’t have a NMC. Would’ve been the one to move for a top G or top D.

But of course, he has one, as does everyone else and their dog on this team. So mediocre D and goaltending it is. Nylander should not be moved.