Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[notDatsyuk]

It's the same logic I see people pushing here for Mitch, its the cap space and flexibility we would get in trading him.

If someone would take his cap hit without our having to retain and/or take back a bad contract, I agree. I just don't see that happening, even if he were to waive.

I'd love the cap space and flexibility - I just don't see us getting it.

 

[Antropovsky]

Dude its not called attacking the strawman, its called making a strawman argument which is exactly what you are doing ...

From wikipedia:

A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

 

[Antropovsky]

Dude its not called attacking the strawman, its called making a strawman argument which is exactly what you are doing ... OK lets take your specious argument and break it down... the thicker you are the better you will do something... but what? ... What year did Barzal win the cup? Never? OK so your point must be it's not about the Cup, it's about individual performances ... OK Barzal has 442 points in 500 games, Marner has 639 in 576 games... over the same amount of years .. oh its not about regular season its is about playoffs? Mitch has 50 points in 57 games, Barzal 45 points in 60 games ... so what you are saying is if Marner gets thicker he can be a lesser player like Barzal? Gotcha... great debate there dude.. you really got me...

Apparently according to you, if he eats more Apples and Banana's he will fall down less (obvious sarcasm)... this is the problem we are trying to solve for right? Less falling and apparently less scoring like Barzal? Wait I know, if he eats more oranges that are genetically modified to have more skill he will be come more skilled and less fally downy?

So I think we can all agree having the FOUTH most even strength ice time out of any RW last year is an illustration of his lack of conditioning... MORE VEGGIES!!! How quick do you think eating more veggies will drop him to Barzals level? So you are saying there is only one way to not fall down, great edges or agility dont mean squat?

Are you saying you were wrong? You said Marner would he too gassed if he was more muscular. WELL... how do you explain Barzal? Barzal is literally the fastest player in the game, hes in the 99 percentile of all NHL edge speed categories. Shouldn't he be too gassed to skate fast with his muscular body. Meanwhile tiny Marner is in the bottom 50% in all skating speed categories.

Here's your post:

Again I've asked you when he adds muscle and he gets gassed more easily and he has to play less ATOI and scores less. what have you gained?

I know if I was a player stepping on the ice vs Barzal, I wouldn't be sure if I could win a battle against him. Marner... that's a flea and I'm positive a light push would send him flying. Which is what we see during games.

They are exactly the same age.

 

[Gabriel426]

Hard shots have more than twice the correlation to goals than extra hard shots.
This is statistically known. You are just expressing an opinion based on an impression you have. You have no basis of fact to support your assertion.

Just want to be clear, are you saying having a harder shot won't give you an advantage in goal scoring over having a weaker shot?

 

[JEI]

Where did you see this? Or did you just make this?

Made it on Capfriendly

 

[ZEBROA]

You miss the other part of the equation...goals allowed on ice.

Nylander aint a 2way forward. Thats were great defensive goalie, D and fellow forwards would help. But Nylanders mission, to score goals, he has done ok at least.

Maby Marner has to, But many think he could do better when it counts the most.

As we dont succede with him i want to se how we do without him. Even if it makes the team worse on paper. Maby the team play better without the safety net. And off course a added C to play with Nylander instead of Tavares.

I belive they will resign Marner for about 12,5-13,5x8, if we will regret that or not, who knows. I will not cry about the obvious.

 

[colchar]

Dude its not called attacking the strawman, its called making a strawman argument which is exactly what you are doing ... OK lets take your specious argument and break it down... the thicker you are the better you will do something... but what? ... What year did Barzal win the cup? Never? OK so your point must be it's not about the Cup, it's about individual performances ... OK Barzal has 442 points in 500 games, Marner has 639 in 576 games... over the same amount of years .. oh its not about regular season its is about playoffs? Mitch has 50 points in 57 games, Barzal 45 points in 60 games ... so what you are saying is if Marner gets thicker he can be a lesser player like Barzal? Gotcha... great debate there dude.. you really got me...

Apparently according to you, if he eats more Apples and Banana's he will fall down less (obvious sarcasm)... this is the problem we are trying to solve for right? Less falling and apparently less scoring like Barzal? Wait I know, if he eats more oranges that are genetically modified to have more skill he will be come more skilled and less fally downy?

So I think we can all agree having the FOUTH most even strength ice time out of any RW last year is an illustration of his lack of conditioning... MORE VEGGIES!!! How quick do you think eating more veggies will drop him to Barzals level? So you are saying there is only one way to not fall down, great edges or agility dont mean squat?

He doesn't need more fruits and veggies, he needs more balls.

 

[Antropovsky]

He doesn't need more fruits and veggies, he needs more balls.

Hard to have balls when your 5'10, 170lbs and built like a teenager playing mainly large, fit men in a physical sport.

Seriously.

 

[colchar]

Having said that someone having a harder shot is better than someone having a weaker shot in terms of scoring.

Gretzky never had a hard shot. Having an accurate shot is more important.

 

[Antropovsky]

Gretzky never had a hard shot. Having an accurate shot is more important.

About 70% of Marners season goals were breakaways and tap ins to open nets with goalie way of of position (complomentary of his linemates). The other large chunk was a set one timer on the pp where the Leafs got the goalie moving laterally and Marner mainly had to get it on net.

All high danger type shots and majority don't exist in the playoffs because teams collapse and take away the slot.

 

[Gabriel426]

Gretzky never had a hard shot. Having an accurate shot is more important.

1. Gretzky had a hard shot just not 100mph shot.
2. There are always going to be exception in any rules, you can’t use exceptions as general.
3. I agree having an accurate shot is more important but the question is does a player having harder shot better than having a weaker shot.

To put it simply, if there are two players and all things are equal(skating, speed, size, skill, grit…) except for the power in their shot, would the player with the harder shot be more favourable than the one with the weaker shot.
I am pretty sure most if not all would pick the one with the harder shot.

 

[ZEBROA]

1. Gretzky had a hard shot just not 100mph shot.
2. There are always going to be exception in any rules, you can’t use exceptions as general.
3. I agree having an accurate shot is more important but the question is does a player having harder shot better than having a weaker shot.

To put it simply, if there are two players and all things are equal(skating, speed, size, skill, grit…) except for the power in their shot, would the player with the harder shot be more favourable than the one with the weaker shot.
I am pretty sure most if not all would pick the one with the harder shot.

A realy hard accurate shot must be better then a weak accurate shot. That is just hard to oppose.
As a D i belive it is more important to hit the net. If you can do the same with a crazy hard shot, thats obviously way better. But most players cant do that.

Marner is a worse or better sniper then fans think. It just depend on the side you are on. Im on the " i dont care, make the team as good as u can in every way possible". I let wiser dudes with insight handle that part. But i hope they say goodbye to Marner, mostly for the psycological part about it. I belive Leafs need to let go of there comfort blanket .

 

[Notsince67]

Google doesn't get me past paywalls and the Athletic prints too much nonsense to be considered

Just want to be clear, are you saying having a harder shot won't give you an advantage in goal scoring over having a weaker shot?

The is a probabilistic spectrum of which the hardest shots are actually less likely to score...yes.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Google doesn't get me past paywalls and the Athletic prints too much nonsense to be considered the gospel truth on any hockey related subject.

https://txtify.it/https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5037332/2023/11/08/nhl-edge-data-shot-speed-location/

 

[Hellcat]

Are you saying you were wrong? You said Marner would he too gassed if he was more muscular. WELL... how do you explain Barzal? Barzal is literally the fastest player in the game, hes in the 99 percentile of all NHL edge speed categories. Shouldn't he be too gassed to skate fast with his muscular body. Meanwhile tiny Marner is in the bottom 50% in all skating speed categories.

It's called genetics fool, everyone has a natural peak body composition, when they are at their peak performance. When I was 170 lbs I could run a half marathon without getting too gassed, now I'm carrying 215 lbs I couldn't run 100 yards with out getting gassed but I can bench 200lbs like there is no tomorrow. Lost the cardio gained a lot of strength. As I gained muscle, I noticed my endurance for cardio dropped. it's normal and natural for most people. On the other hand I know some monsters at 235lbs that could run a half marathon for a joke. If you are paying attention Marner is naturally lean, skinny shoulders, skinny arms, small chest and has a slim build, he is more like an ectomorph than an endomorph, those type of bodies typically dont manage significant muscle gain and large amount of cardio well.

Hey Doc we all get it, eat more apples fall down less right?

From wikipedia:

A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

When did you edit Wiki? Now that you know what you are doing, you can stop.. or maybe you can't. Ever hear of Dunning–Kruger effect? Since you are on a growth tour, you may want to look that up too.

 

[Hellcat]

So hockey truth is something that just occurs to you and you see fit to challenge people's assertion of studies done based on what exactly?
Do you ever stay silent on any subject you know jack shit about?

 

[Hellcat]

A realy hard accurate shot must be better then a weak accurate shot. That is just hard to oppose.
As a D i belive it is more important to hit the net. If you can do the same with a crazy hard shot, thats obviously way better. But most players cant do that.

Marner is a worse or better sniper then fans think. It just depend on the side you are on. Im on the " i dont care, make the team as good as u can in every way possible". I let wiser dudes with insight handle that part. But i hope they say goodbye to Marner, mostly for the psycological part about it. I belive Leafs need to let go of there comfort blanket .

Depends on the deception in that shot and it is a heavy shot, NHL goalies have literally of thousands of shots in their lifetime, they are use to seeing 90mph + shots, a heavy shot is more difficult than a fast shot, a deceptive shot is more difficult than a heavy shot. Matty's shot is considered a heavy shot + he gets the puck of his stick quickly. Marner is deceptive, with his shot and skating..

 

[Hellcat]

Hard to have balls when your 5'10, 170lbs and built like a teenager playing mainly large, fit men in a physical sport.

Seriously.

You were saying?

 

[Hellcat]

I know if I was a player stepping on the ice vs Barzal, I wouldn't be sure if I could win a battle against him. Marner... that's a flea and I'm positive a light push would send him flying. Which is what we see during games.

They are exactly the same age.

You were saying?

 

[Legion34]

Guess Barzals sports scientist knows nothing. Again your attacking the strawman... your trying to indicate I've said Marner needs to be a body builder and you've attacked that argument.

Do you see a difference between NHL Star Marner and NHL star Barzal?

View attachment 893148

View attachment 893147

Marner is a vastly better player than barzal

Why would you compare a worse player to make your argument?

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nylander aint a 2way forward. Thats were great defensive goalie, D and fellow forwards would help. But Nylanders mission, to score goals, he has done ok at least.

Maby Marner has to, But many think he could do better when it counts the most.

As we dont succede with him i want to se how we do without him. Even if it makes the team worse on paper. Maby the team play better without the safety net. And off course a added C to play with Nylander instead of Tavares.

I belive they will resign Marner for about 12,5-13,5x8, if we will regret that or not, who knows. I will not cry about the obvious.

Nylander's defensive game seems to be fine when playing with Matthews, while Marner's much lauded defence drops off considerably when he's with Tavares.

Coincidence?

 

[Hellcat]

There have been rumours of Marner being a lesbian for years, dating back to his junior years. If he truly is a lesbian that would mean by deduction he is female. Females generate significantly less testosterone than men. Testosterone is a fundamental building block in building muscle. This could explain Marner's inability to put on mass over the years. It's hard to tell whether this is a solvable issue. I would guess probably not.

Might be the funniest post on this forum in months... well played .

 

[Hellcat]

Marner is a vastly better player than barzal

Why would you compare a worse player to make your argument?

... because he has tunnel vision on Marner gaining weight which he thinks he will fall down less, it's illogical but lets let him have his fun ... If i was him I would have picked Crosby who has legs like California redwoods but that is just me...

Clearly Mitch has balance problems and staying on his skates....

 

[Hellcat]

Nylander's defensive game seems to be fine when playing with Matthews, while Marner's much lauded defence drops off considerably when he's with Tavares.

Coincidence?

Everyone's defensive games falls off when they play with JT. JT is a cement pilon that is great at faceoffs, board battles and net front work. Matty is one of the best shot blocking forwards, he is a take way machine. Mitch is one of the best thieves in the league.

Five paragraphs of shaming language. When are you Rocket Security guys gonna reach the "acceptance" phase of the grieving process?

Never...

 

[Notsince67]

Nylander's defensive game seems to be fine when playing with Matthews, while Marner's much lauded defence drops off considerably when he's with Tavares.

Coincidence?

It isnt. Way easier to blow the zone defensively when Matthews is on the ice