Player Discussion Mitch Marner - On Hiatus

[Weltschmerz]

I'd gladly sign Marner for $11.5mx8 and retain $1m for Brady Tkachuk. Sens would get him for 9 years for $85m (9.4m per year) and Leafs get Brady for $9+m. Marner get $11.5m.

I doubt there is a team out there willing to pay him $11.5mx8. We'll see.

Can you even retain on a contract that hasn't kicked in? I thought thats not possible?

 

[notdoneyet]

So how many years are we supposed to waste away as a franchise while these guys steal money and fail to lead us anywhere? What's the cutoff?

Well we just signed one guy for another 4 years and another for 8 so there is that. Both these guys we signed are no better in the playoffs than the guy we are running out of town.

I agree something has to change but the other 3 haven’t elevated their game by carrying us farther in the playoffs. I don’t have the confidence that matthews and nylander can carry us there either.

 

[AvroArrow]

McDavid and Leon do their fair share of going into the corners for puck retrieval, 34, 16, 88 not so much...........

Matthews is fine in that regard, 16 shits himself when he sees an opposing jersey, Willy is getting better but yeah still need more of that from em.

 

[Antropovsky]

Does mcdavid come with hyman

You do realize Marner plays with Matthews? Matthews won the Ted Lindsay two seasons ago, and is again a finalist this year (Mcdavid is not a finalist). Ted Lindsay is voted on by the players. So Marner is benefitting as much as Hyman.

Ted Lindsay Award, formerly known as the Lester B. Pearson Award, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's most outstanding player in the regular season as judged by the members of the NHL Players' Association

 

[Martin Skoula]

So Keefe and Dubas failed to identify his potential. Aint that common. Throw him on the stack of other players that get misused and replaced with mostly useless in the PO Europeans for some peculiar reason. We dont get the useful ones, just the useless will do for Toronto.

He wasn’t a PP asset here, he wasn’t his first while in Edmonton either. He became an asset when he learned to roof pucks in tight after year 2 in Edmonton. He had the most chances in tight in the league in his Toronto years and didn’t have the mechanics to do much with them. A ton of his goals in Edmonton are those JVR forehand backhand roofs he simply didn’t have the ability to do here or his first year in Edmonton.

 

[ToneDog]

Can you even retain on a contract that hasn't kicked in? I thought thats not possible?

You could be right but I do not see why not. What is the difference between what I proposed and retaining 1.2m on the Kessel trade?

Retained Salary​

When teams trade a player, they can retain, or keep, some of the players' salary and cap hit. The team keeps a % of both the cap hit and salary for the remainder of the contract.

Therefore, if a Player with a Salary of $2.0M and a Cap Hit/AAV of $3.0M is traded with 20% retention, the trading team would continue to pay 20% of the $2.0M Salary and would continue to have a cap hit of 20% of the $3.0M Cap Hit.

The maximum retention % is 50%.

Teams can only carry a maximum of 3 Retained Salaries at a time.

An individual contract can only have a maximum of 2 teams retaining salary on it.

The maximum amount of retained salary by a team is 15% of the Salary Cap for the current year.

If a team retains salary on a traded player and that player is later sent to the minors, there is no change to the cap hit for the retaining team.

If a team retains salary on a trade, they cannot reacquire that player for one year from the date of the transaction, unless the contract ends prior to one year.

 

[Gary Nylund]

What him shine…….on the third line…….

If we have someone better than JT to centre the 3rd line, that's more than fine with me.

Well we just signed one guy for another 4 years and another for 8 so there is that. Both these guys we signed are no better in the playoffs than the guy we are running out of town.

I agree something has to change but the other 3 haven’t elevated their game by carrying us farther in the playoffs. I don’t have the confidence that matthews and nylander can carry us there either.

It sounds like you're saying that Matthews and Nylander are no better than Marner in the playoffs. I'll just politely say that I strongly disagree with this statement, and that's putting it mildly.

 

[Weltschmerz]

You could be right but I do not see why not. What is the difference between what I proposed and retaining 1.2m on the Kessel trade?

Retained Salary​

When teams trade a player, they can retain, or keep, some of the players' salary and cap hit. The team keeps a % of both the cap hit and salary for the remainder of the contract.

Therefore, if a Player with a Salary of $2.0M and a Cap Hit/AAV of $3.0M is traded with 20% retention, the trading team would continue to pay 20% of the $2.0M Salary and would continue to have a cap hit of 20% of the $3.0M Cap Hit.

The maximum retention % is 50%.

Teams can only carry a maximum of 3 Retained Salaries at a time.

An individual contract can only have a maximum of 2 teams retaining salary on it.

The maximum amount of retained salary by a team is 15% of the Salary Cap for the current year.

If a team retains salary on a traded player and that player is later sent to the minors, there is no change to the cap hit for the retaining team.

If a team retains salary on a trade, they cannot reacquire that player for one year from the date of the transaction, unless the contract ends prior to one year.

Difference to the Kessel trade that was one contract, you wanted to retain on his current contract and a new one if I understood correctly.

 

[ToneDog]

Difference to the Kessel trade that was one contract, you wanted to retain on his current contract and a new one if I understood correctly.

I am talking about retaining $1m on his new contract. You could also retain on his current contract but he is only owed $750K after the Leafs pay his bonus. Not sure how that would work.

You might have a legitimate point given two contracts would be in play.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Right, I forgot about that. Thanks for the correction.

Agreed. It's been weird reading the comments about these two players - seems like the majority of people would like to sign Bertuzzi and are willing to pay him 5 million, and the majority of people say Tavares can take a hike or maybe he can stay if he's willing to sign for 3 million tops.

I mean we'll see where we're at a year from now but these takes are just ridiculous IMO. I looked it up not too long ago and I don't remember for sure but I think JT was still in the top 70 in points among fowwards league wide. I do know for sure that he scored a lot more points than Bertuzzi. He's also very solid defensively, is amazing on the draw, he has no weaknesses in his game, the only knock on him is that he's not as young as he once was so is declining and is also not a fast skater but the way some people talk about him you'd think he has one foot in the grave.

A top line forward, great all-round two way player, not sure what you'd have to be smoking to think you'd draw the line at paying him more than 3 million a year.

Last year Bert averaged 7 seconds more at 5v5. They each produced 15 goals and 20 assists. JT's more overall points came mainly from PP assists.

I think the big difference is that JT is 4 1/2 years older, just had the worst year of his career, and is visibly declining, while Bert had about his best.

 

[rumman]

If we have someone better than JT to centre the 3rd line, that's more than fine with me.

It sounds like you're saying that Matthews and Nylander are no better than Marner in the playoffs. I'll just politely say that I strongly disagree with this statement, and that's putting it mildly.

Nic Roy would be perfect, or tell Styles to man up and accept the challenge……..

 

[Gary Nylund]

Last year Bert averaged 7 seconds more at 5v5. They each produced 15 goals and 20 assists. JT's more overall points came mainly from PP assists.

I think the big difference is that JT is 4 1/2 years older, just had the worst year of his career, and is visibly declining, while Bert had about his best.

Makes sense. Without doing any real analysis, I'd say JT is the more valuable player as of today, but probably not by a lot (and not for long).

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I don’t think we should run it back btw

Yeah I was more responding to that point than holding you responsible for it, if that makes sense. It made sense in my head, anyway.

Well we just signed one guy for another 4 years and another for 8 so there is that. Both these guys we signed are no better in the playoffs than the guy we are running out of town.

I agree something has to change but the other 3 haven’t elevated their game by carrying us farther in the playoffs. I don’t have the confidence that matthews and nylander can carry us there either.

We can't do anything about the guys we already extended. We can change the future, though.

I don't wanr to give you the impression that I'm just a guy that specifically has an axe to grind against Mitch himself. I don't like any of them, really. I would prefer to start over because this entire core has failed to a man, but that will not happen.

 

[Trapper]

Elite is a subjective term so not going to argue that point. I stand by my main point though which is that JT is massively underrated in these parts.

You don’t need elite to win the Cup.
If you have it great, but even elite needs to be able to play the playoff way.
You just need very good skill willing to do everything to succeed. With the ability to play every way the game and opposition dictates in the playoffs.

 

[PromisedLand]

If ya'll think Tavares aged bad, I can't imagine Marner any slower.

tavares at least goes into corners and to the net and takes a beating when he is able to get there first or at the same time

Tavares' entire problem is his foot speed

Marner on the other hand.... He is going to age even worst than tavares.

 

[Racer88]

McDavid and Leon do their fair share of going into the corners for puck retrieval, 34, 16, 88 not so much...........

Exactly. Hyman never got the respect because everyone was googly eyed over Matthews and Marner.
Hyman has 13 goals thus playoffs
Marner and Matthews combined have 2.
Some of you guys think we should extend Marner for 7 or 8 more years at 12 something……….its mind boggling
In the interest of fairness Matthews should never have been given the contract extension for that kind of money.
These 2 are grossly over rated

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Barclay Goodrow has now passed Mitch in playoff goals

 

[LaPlante94]

I know this might upset some people but I'm starting to believe we don't move Marner and Berube will want to work with him. Maybe if it doesn't work out we'll trade him during the season after giving him an 8 year extension for another team which isn't ideal but would be better than nothing.

 

[ToneDog]

Barclay Goodrow has now passed Mitch in playoff goals

Yeah but is he getting a $7m bonus on July 1st?

 

[AvroArrow]

I know this might upset some people but I'm starting to believe we don't move Marner and Berube will want to work with him. Maybe if it doesn't work out we'll trade him during the season after giving him an 8 year extension for another team which isn't ideal but would be better than nothing.

I don't see us trading him mid season. It happens before training camp or not at all.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

know this might upset some people but I'm starting to believe we don't move Marner and Berube will want to work with him

The team needs him to go.
He needs to go.

I’m the GM: Mitch, we’re moving on, let’s get something that works for you

 

[myleafs]

Top ~30 amongst C's (actual, not listed because they took a faceoff once in peewee) in total and ev scoring, faceoff ace, solid enough defensively that he doesn't need to be sheltered.

There's an argument for load management for sure but that's so that we get face value in playoffs, and that face value is "more than a quality 3C"

also, is your . button sticky or something?

46 pts in 62 playoff games. So he doesnt bring much to the offensive table in the playoffs and never has. 2 pts in 7 games this year. Makes 11. Zero emotion. Iv never seen him stick up for his teammates, like ever. Getting slower by the day. I get that he gives an honest effort, is good at face offs and has a decent shot if he is in close but I don't get why we want to keep him and for 6+...I dont think I want him for any price to be honest. I dont get the love. How has he made us a better team?

McDavid and Leon do their fair share of going into the corners for puck retrieval, 34, 16, 88 not so much...........

All the top players on the 4 teams left all do as all teams that win do. Ours never have.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Fans are emotional. GMs shouldn't be when it comes to roster decisions. Hence my reference to how they would feel about Marners value. And yet as someone who thinks we'd could be better if he was moved I don't blanketly think wanting him moved has to be emotionally driven.

And neither do I.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

He doesn't have the bones, muscle or speed to go to net without getting injured .. he learned it when he was 8/9 and then again when he was 13/14 with concussions and shoulder injuries which put him out of game for 2-4 months each time .. i saw Hanifin hit from da bench in a Long Island spring tourney which our trainer had to go on ice to get him .. it was quite bad .. scary for everyone who saw it .. once you get wrecked that bad it is very very hard to overcome that fear .. i don't think he will ever go there again .. but it has nothing to do with leadership or grit his body just does not have ability to withstand it .. most of you don't realize how small Mitch is .. and he is just not fast enough to get out of da way .. he is a really happy kid who totally gets his limitations .. but folks on here want him to be something more than he ever will be .. and a lot of it has to do with Dubie giving him way too much $$$$ .. but you can't blame kid for that .. any of us would have tried to do exactly what he did .. he is from a family who did not have funds to pay for his ice, team fees, equipment, etc etc .. so he was always looking for financial help/aid/sponsors etc .. da fact that he made it to da show and got his $$$ is amazing for him/them .. but irrespective of all this we as a TEAM can't carry more then 2 10M+ CAP hit players MAX .. and even then having 2 forwards is not smart for playoff success

I accept your explanation 100%. That said, logically he should have never been paid as he is so highly. Yet he and his family, despite knowing the limitations you describe, demand top dollar. Why?

EDIT: You know what? NOW I'm gonna get "EMOTIONAL". First of all, I am one of the very few posters on here that has taken everything you've said on here as close to the Gospel Truth as I could as your story seems to be very credible.

Frankly, this Marner as a victim narrative is BULLSHIT. I am a skilled trades guy who worked my way up to Supervisor in a Govt position with a pension most people can only dream of. I made probably 2 million bucks my entire working career. Yet I consider myself FORTUNATE to have this great5 life that I have. Most people who have worked for a living have FAR LESS than what I have.

So stick the Marner ( or any other professional athlete, for that matter) is a victim narrative STRAIGHT up your brown chute.

Thank you.

 

[socko]

Marner is the guy who brings almost no offensive value on his own. He's not going to score goals hovering around the perimeter. Both Matthews and Nylander bring offense on their own. Marner's fans have sold it as Matthews needs him to score goals. I don't see the evidence for this. In fact, I see evidence that Matthews is a better all-around player and more engaged physically when he's away from Marner.

If Berube signs off on bringing him back next year, it won't take him long to regret that decision.