Mitch Marner discussion

[Zybalto]

It's not a matter of liking, or not liking. Common sense tells me that we are a better team with Matthews, therefore any numbers that show the opposite are to be discarded as they are useless. It's pretty straightforward stuff, not sure how I could put it any more clearly.

Oh, I completely understand as I was surprised to see the numbers myself but that just speaks to the fact the Leafs are a really good team period that can overcome the loss of key players (although no team can manage too many injuries of course). I'm just saying that it appears the only player they have a really hard time being without appears to be Marner who has been rightly described as the engine of the team.

 

[Notsince67]

Kind of ironic how when the team could not win the series or playing bad, when people criticize AM, JT, MM, Willie and the rest of the core, you guys will come out and say it is a TEAM game and Hockey is not like Basketball where a super star can make or break the team. But when one of them is injured, the same people will show how much the team misses this player and show how the team have difficulties to win without him, thus back to the narrative that an individual could be the difference in Hockey like Basketball.

“Of anybody on our team on forward, he’s the guy that does it all for us,” Keefe said. “Both sides of special teams, power play, penalty kill, five on five, key defensive situations, playmaking ability, energy, positivity on the bench and in the room.
“He’s a big loss for us. We’ve been a little out of sorts since losing him. Our team is sort of adjusting to life without Mitch, but it’s been a difficult transition because he does so much for our team.”

 

[Zybalto]

Kind of ironic how when the team could not win playoff series or playing bad, people start criticize AM, JT, MM, Willie and the rest of the core, you guys will come out and say it is a TEAM game and Hockey is not like Basketball where a super star can make or break the team. But when one of them is injured, the same people will show how much the team misses this player and show how the team have difficulties to win without him, thus back to the narrative that an individual could be the difference in Hockey like Basketball.

No doubt Marner is a talented player but you can’t have it both ways. Like I said after the Habs series, it is a complement to say that AM and MM didn’t show up bc if they did, Leafs would have won the series. We don’t say stuff like that about Mik or Engvall, bc whether they show up or not, their impact is very minimum unless they go beast mode and play like a top line player.

I really do think if Mik or Engvall had more than 1 point combined over the last two playoffs (Statistically maybe the two most unproductive players in the playoffs) we might have won either series but instead gotta pick on the 2 guys with 19 points and lockdown D. It is what it is.

 

[67leafs]

Wonder if Marner goes right back on the PP…..
It’s been pretty successful without him….

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oh, I completely understand as I was surprised to see the numbers myself but that just speaks to the fact the Leafs are a really good team period that can overcome the loss of key players (although no team can manage too many injuries of course). I'm just saying that it appears the only player they have a really hard time being without appears to be Marner who has been rightly described as the engine of the team.

Those numbers don't mean a damn thing. Run it again and it could be the other way around for a bunch of different reasons.

As far as Marner being the engine of the team, that's a nebulous term that doesn't really mean anything. He's a great player and we're obviously a better team with him on the ice, same goes for Matthews, same goes for Nylander and what do you say we just leave it at that (assuming you agree and I expect that you do)?

 

[ACC1224]

Wonder if Marner goes right back on the PP…..
It’s been pretty successful without him….

The full circle moment

 

[Zybalto]

Those numbers don't mean a damn thing. Run it again and it could be the other way around for a bunch of different reasons.

As far as Marner being the engine of the team, that's a nebulous term that doesn't really mean anything. He's a great player and we're obviously a better team with him on the ice, same goes for Matthews, same goes for Nylander and what do you say we just leave it at that (assuming you agree and I expect that you do)?

Oh, I agree that we are a better team with all of them, It's just that, going strictly by results, it appears Marner (and his crazy ability to play great in any situation) may be a far more important and valuable asset than many are giving him credit for.

Even looking deeper at xGF%, goal differential, etc., Marner makes the biggest difference.

I'm actually hoping the Leafs change this pattern right now and I'm fully aware that losing Spezza/Sandin may be contributing to this as well.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Oh, I agree that we are a better team with all of them, It's just that, going strictly by results, it appears Marner (and his crazy ability to play great in any situation) may be a far more important and valuable asset than many are giving him credit for.

Even looking deeper at xGF%, goal differential, etc., Marner makes the biggest difference.

I'm actually hoping the Leafs change this pattern right now and I'm fully aware that losing Spezza/Sandin may be contributing to this as well.

Going strictly by results, it appears that we are better off without Matthews and we are also better off without Nylander. If you still think those results have value, that's up to you but you're not going to convince me.

 

[Gabriel426]

“Of anybody on our team on forward, he’s the guy that does it all for us,” Keefe said. “Both sides of special teams, power play, penalty kill, five on five, key defensive situations, playmaking ability, energy, positivity on the bench and in the room.
“He’s a big loss for us. We’ve been a little out of sorts since losing him. Our team is sort of adjusting to life without Mitch, but it’s been a difficult transition because he does so much for our team.”

Point was not whether Marner is an important part of the team, bc anyone whoever thinks Marner is not is blind. He is an important part of the team from his production to his contract(13.3% of the cap). Point is Marner, AM, JT, Willie and Reilly should not escape criticisms if the Leafs can't win and they didn't produce. They are the core, the foundations, the head, the leaders, the SUPERSTARS that any teams in the NHL would want to lead their teams, but if they didn't produce and the team loses, they need to take accountability in losing. The Leafs win or lose depends heavily on them to perform unless we do what the Habs done, rely Soup to have shutout every game and players chipping in goals here and there.

I really do think if Mik or Engvall had more than 1 point combined over the last two playoffs (Statistically maybe the two most unproductive players in the playoffs) we might have won either series but instead gotta pick on the 2 guys with 19 points and lockdown D. It is what it is.

Any Leafs getting an extra GOAL in Game 5 and 6 could have helped the Leafs win the the Series.

I know you are strong in your stance, but there is a reason why EA sports uses AM or McD or Ovie or others for their covers and not players like Mik, Engvall. There is a reason why guys like MM, Petey, WN, even Kap gets sponsor by top brands and not guys like Byron or Goat. There is a reason why MM makes 13.3% of the current cap while Engvall and Mik makes around 1.5% of the Cap. That reason usually means guys like MM and AM are expected to be the best players on the team and even in a playoff series. Were they the best players for the Leafs in the last playoffs against the Habs? Did they produce enough offence as the Rocket Winner and First Team All Star in the series? ONE goal in 7 games for both of them.

I am not saying they are bad players but they really didn't perform to their regular season standard.
From what I have seen so far this season, both their games changed. Marner kept thing simple again after the first few games and are more willing to crash the net which results in goals. AM is also scoring goals around the net plus he is playing bigger and start pushing and shoving more. Those are great signs and hope they keep improving.

 

[ToneDog]

Going strictly by results, it appears that we are better off without Matthews and we are also better off without Nylander. If you still think those results have value, that's up to you but you're not going to convince me.

I've had the same argument before. Can't understand how one could think Leafs could be better without a goal scoring unicorn. Perhaps in a small sample size against mostly bad teams, but in a large sample size, no f'n way.

 

[Gabriel426]

I've had the same argument before. Can't understand how one could think Leafs could be better without a goal scoring unicorn. Perhaps in a small sample size against mostly bad teams, but in a large sample size, no f'n way.

Woll was at one point 3-0 to start the season, I guess Leafs should have run with him since his winning percentage was higher than Campbell.

 

[Racer88]

that is not entirely true. Spezz and Sandin played 2 of those 6 games, and Derms came back to the lineup I believe last game. So the only person who has remained out of the lineup has been Mitch over that 6 game stretch.

Again, I am not trying to insinuate all of our disjointed play has been a result of Mitch being out of the lineup exclusively. Of course having Spezz and Sandin out also hurts our team drastically. But the point is, the team has looked sloppy ever since Mitch went out. Including the 2 games Spezza and Sandin played before their suspension/injury. Mitch's absence has far more of a ripple effect than arguably anyone on the team IMO. He plays every situation (RW1, PP1, PK1) and his absence has inevitably made more than one player have to play higher up in the lineup and assume a larger role as a result. The same cannot be said for Sandin, Dermott, and Spezza. They all play complimentary roles that can easily be filled by reserve players.

I really don't think it is a coincidence that we went 4-7-0 last time Marner was out in 2019-20, and we have been struggling to a similar capacity this time around. Sure the results are better (3-2-1), but if you are watching those 6 games it feels like we are miles away from the team that was in California 2.5 weeks ago

One area I will give Marner credit for has been the PK, it has not been as good since he has been out.
As far as the PP is concerned I would argue that it has been better since Marner has been out and I hope Keefe has the guts to keep him off at the very least PP1 but hopefully of both PP’s.
He is way to predictable on the PP.

 

[Racer88]

Wonder if Marner goes right back on the PP…..
It’s been pretty successful without him….

I sure hope not

 

[Zybalto]

Going strictly by results, it appears that we are better off without Matthews and we are also better off without Nylander. If you still think those results have value, that's up to you but you're not going to convince me.

What results?

 

[Orfieus]

You keep saying it for what purpose?

If Toronto doesn't get past the 2nd round one of Matthews, Nylander or Marner need to be traded in the off season

 

[Gary Nylund]

What results?

I was quoting your post, which results were you referring to? I assume it's the same ones we've been talking about for some time now, if not then I'm confused.

 

[Zybalto]

I was quoting your post, which results were you referring to? I assume it's the same ones we've been talking about for some time now, if not then I'm confused.

Oh Ok, could have been playoff results, etc.,

Based off of the injury results, they are all actually statistically close to each other outside of Marner, and this trickles down to goal differential, xGF%, the whole thing.

Being off .050 win%, you could chalk things up to maybe an easier schedule or the other stars really stepping up in an absence (Toronto has rarely had two stars injured at the same time). The Leafs without Marner is so far off the usual compared to the others it's just foolish to hold them to the same standards IMO....

In the end, this is still a really small sample size which I hope the rest of the Leafs overcome. Lets see if they can pop the winning% with him out over the .500 mark and make it as irrelevant as when the other guys are out.

 

[Notsince67]

If Toronto doesn't get past the 2nd round one of Matthews, Nylander or Marner need to be traded in the off season

So you are basing your opinion on an event that may hypothetically happen months from now, regardless of performance, team makeup, trade offers etc?

 

[Gabriel426]

The other thing about these stats is that you can't compare AM missing the first few games this season to him missing games in his second season b/c the team is completely different, esp since he was on his ELC contract where only takes up 1-1.5% of the cap. For example Kadri was a 30 goals scorer while AM was a 40 goals scorer back then, thus the drop off is 10 goals or so. But the replacement for AM now is Kerfoot or Kampf, don't think they scored over 20 goals ever in a season.
Thats why I think the stats some of you put up is quite misleading, bc there are a whole bunch of other factors in play such as schedule, were they a lot of 3 games in 4 nights or the teams they played....
Its interesting that on the Marner PP thread, you guys bring up a point about the quality of opponents PK needs to be considered which I agree but none of you bring up the time these players are missing like 4 seasons ago or this season, or the quality of opponents they were facing.

 

[WillyC]

Marner seems to be out for longer than I expected… hurt in practice, anybody have it on video?

 

[ShaneFalco]

Just put the team over Mitch's comfort is all I ask.

 

[Racer88]

Just put the team over Mitch's comfort is all I ask.

Agree with this 100% but I doubt it will happen. Keefe will have to appease him or else

 

[ShaneFalco]

Agree with this 100% but I doubt it will happen. Keefe will have to appease him or else

We'll see and that will say a lot

 

[Confucius]

Marner seems to be out for longer than I expected… hurt in practice, anybody have it on video?

Yeah there is nothing on his injury, didn't seem hurt when he walked away from the ice. At the time I thought it must have been very minor and didn't think much about it again but it has dragged on.

 

[Antropovsky]

Kind of ironic how when the team could not win playoff series or playing bad, people start criticize AM, JT, MM, Willie and the rest of the core, you guys will come out and say it is a TEAM game and Hockey is not like Basketball where a super star can make or break the team. But when one of them is injured, the same people will show how much the team misses this player and show how the team have difficulties to win without him, thus back to the narrative that an individual could be the difference in Hockey like Basketball.

No doubt Marner is a talented player but you can’t have it both ways. Like I said after the Habs series, it is a complement to say that AM and MM didn’t show up bc if they did, Leafs would have won the series. We don’t say stuff like that about Mik or Engvall, bc whether they show up or not, their impact is very minimum unless they go beast mode and play like a top line player.

Yep and the same posters were making excuses for Marner when he was underperfoming in the postseason (hes playing excellent just wait you will look dumb!) then when that fell flat, those same posters Matthews and Tavares need Matthews....oh and his no goals in 18 playoff games dont matter, hes a playmaker!!! Then when Marner had about 1 point in 7 games without Matthews different excuses were made for Marner (this means nothing, he is not a product of Matthews!). Now the same posters are scrambling to say the Leafs are hurting without Marner, but say its a coincidence Matthews is scoring more without Marner (what happened to Matthews phenomenal numbers being a product of Marner?) Oh and the pp is performing better too... again this is just a coincidence. Now look - Tavares producing fine without Marner. Marner however is only producing at a 72 point pace..but hey now those posters are ok because Marner is no longer Kane he is Bergeron. Its a moving target... but Marner is always playing excellent, no question. Oh and his contract is Dubas fault so lay off him - wven though Marner himself said he called up Dubas and said "lets make a deal".