Mitch Marner discussion

[Dekes For Days]

Since Marner entered the league, Marner is the 9th best PP point producer among forwards, and the 4th best PP primary assist producer. PP goal-scoring comparables include the likes of Kane, Larkin, Couturier, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Kopitar, Gaudreau, Spezza, Giroux, Toews, Svechnikov, Wheeler.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Honestly if our PP is running at 30% and Marner doesn't score ever again who cares? The problem is when it's running at 10% and we do the same thing over and over again (like putting Marner in a spot he can't score from) The PP has looked so much better because it's fluid now. When guys like Matthews, Nylander, and Marner aren't stationary and are rotating all over the ice it makes it tough for the PK's to stick to their gameplan.

Yup. If the PP is running hot then I don't personally don't care if Marner never scores another PP goal.

 

[Michael HOMERUNing]

Lol. The lengths some people go to to defend some players on here...if the powerplay continues to click put Marner on the second unit. If it gets cold throw him back on the first. It's that simple. There shouldn't even be a debate about it in the first place

 

[Zybalto]

Leafs win% since 2016-2017: .621

Leafs win% without Matthews: .634 (41 games)

Leafs win% without Nylander: .694 (36 games)

Leafs win% without Marner: .432 (22 games)

It's pretty much the same story with Tavares out as well and you can really feel the drop in team play when Marner isnt in the lineup.

Is Marner the most valuable player on a team that has these guys on it? Maybe.....

I do think he's the most underrated player on the team atm, at least around here.

 

[Notsince67]

Leafs win% since 2016-2017: .621

Leafs win% without Matthews: .634 (41 games)

Leafs win% without Nylander: .694 (36 games)

Leafs win% without Marner: .432 (22 games)

It's pretty much the same story with Tavares out as well and you can really feel the drop in team play when Marner isnt in the lineup.

Is Marner the most valuable player on a team that has these guys on it? Maybe.....

I do think he's the most underrated player on the team atm, at least around here.

When puck tracking stats finally become publicly available, it will be an eye opener for many who don't notice how much time the puck is on the stick of that boy.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Leafs win% since 2016-2017: .621

Leafs win% without Matthews: .634 (41 games)

Leafs win% without Nylander: .694 (36 games)

Leafs win% without Marner: .432 (22 games)

It's pretty much the same story with Tavares out as well and you can really feel the drop in team play when Marner isnt in the lineup.

Is Marner the most valuable player on a team that has these guys on it? Maybe.....

I do think he's the most underrated player on the team atm, at least around here.

So we're a better team without Matthews and we're a better team without Nylander.

The only thing this post shows is how useless stats can be.

 

[Notsince67]

So we're a better team without Matthews and we're a better team without Nylander.

The only thing this post shows is how useless stats can be.

Dude...It isnt stats...its basic arithmetic. Now explain why basic arithmetic is useless.

 

[Gary Nylund]

When puck tracking stats finally become publicly available, it will be an eye opener for many who don't notice how much time the puck is on the stick of that boy.

Who cares? We had a winger some years ago (the name escapes me ATM) who was notorious for skating in circles with the puck in the O-zone without it ever leading to anything. The lesson here once is that stats without the ability to think critically are useless.

Marner is a great player but that stat in itself doesn't prove a damn thing.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dude...It isnt stats...its basic arithmetic. Now explain why basic arithmetic is useless.

If the arithmetic tells you the team is better off without Matthews, then it's useless. You seriously couldn't figure this one out for yourself?

Before you ask your next question, you should make sure you understand the answer to the first question. I don't mind explaining things to you as long as I'm not wasting my time.

 

[Notsince67]

Who cares? We had a winger some years ago (the name escapes me ATM) who was notorious for skating in circles with the puck in the O-zone without it ever leading to anything. The lesson here once is that stats without the ability to think critically are useless.

Marner is a great player but that stat in itself doesn't prove a damn thing.

If you know diddly squat about hockey, it would be difficult to prove a thing.
Lets begin with this. Puck possession & retention is a very central strategy to a lot of teams including the leafs. Your simplistic vomiting of banal generalities is just over the top.

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs win% since 2016-2017: .621

Leafs win% without Matthews: .634 (41 games)

Leafs win% without Nylander: .694 (36 games)

Leafs win% without Marner: .432 (22 games)

It's pretty much the same story with Tavares out as well and you can really feel the drop in team play when Marner isnt in the lineup.

Is Marner the most valuable player on a team that has these guys on it? Maybe.....

I do think he's the most underrated player on the team atm, at least around here.

1000%

 

[Notsince67]

If the arithmetic tells you the team is better off without Matthews, then it's useless. You seriously couldn't figure this one out for yourself?

Before you ask your next question, you should make sure you understand the answer to the first question. I don't mind explaining things to you as long as I'm not wasting my time.

You miss the point. Instead of coming up with a credible counter to the implication, you apply a specious label that is absurd. It is data and math. While inconvenient, it is the truth. Your hand waiving dismissal, charactizing it as "statistics" as the central point to your refutation. is staggeringly dumb.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You miss the point. Instead of coming up with a credible counter to the implication, you apply a specious label that is absurd. It is data and math. While inconvenient, it is the truth. Your hand waiving dismissal, charactizing it as "statistics" as the central point to your refutation. is staggeringly dumb.

So you really think that like the numbers show, we are a better team without Matthews and we are a better team without Nylander. I really don't know what else to say to you dude, if you want to trust that "data and math", that's your decision. And my dismissal is based on the fact that any team would be better off with Matthews and/or Nylander, that's just common sense.

Interesting that your post contains the words "staggeringly dumb".

 

[Notsince67]

So you really think that like the numbers show, we are a better team without Matthews and we are a better team without Nylander. I really don't know what else to say to you dude, if you want to trust that "data and math", that's your decision. And my dismissal is based on the fact that any team would be better off with Matthews and/or Nylander, that's just common sense.

Interesting that your post contains the words "staggeringly dumb".

I didnt share my conclusions. I just commented that your statement was absurd.

 

[ACC1224]

You miss the point. Instead of coming up with a credible counter to the implication, you apply a specious label that is absurd. It is data and math. While inconvenient, it is the truth. Your hand waiving dismissal, charactizing it as "statistics" as the central point to your refutation. is staggeringly dumb.

To me those stats show how when missing Marner the lineup is disrupted more than when Matthews or Nylander are out, not that the team is better with those players out of the lineup.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Leafs win% since 2016-2017: .621

Leafs win% without Matthews: .634 (41 games)

Leafs win% without Nylander: .694 (36 games)

Leafs win% without Marner: .432 (22 games)

It's pretty much the same story with Tavares out as well and you can really feel the drop in team play when Marner isnt in the lineup.

Is Marner the most valuable player on a team that has these guys on it? Maybe.....

I do think he's the most underrated player on the team atm, at least around here.

Because there are no other factors whatsoever other than those guys individually missing from the lineup. Like right now, Spezza, Sandin out, Holl a shadow of himself, Mik just back.....non factors

 

[Buds17]

Leafs win% since 2016-2017: .621

Leafs win% without Matthews: .634 (41 games)

Leafs win% without Nylander: .694 (36 games)

Leafs win% without Marner: .432 (22 games)

It's pretty much the same story with Tavares out as well and you can really feel the drop in team play when Marner isnt in the lineup.

Is Marner the most valuable player on a team that has these guys on it? Maybe.....

I do think he's the most underrated player on the team atm, at least around here.

Tough to fully quantify those numbers due to the disparity in # of games missed by each, although it does seem fair to state that Marner's total being the lowest in that regard works to his favour.

 

[Zybalto]

So we're a better team without Matthews and we're a better team without Nylander.

The only thing this post shows is how useless stats can be.

It's literally wins and losses (dismissing wins and losses as "useless stats" is a new amusing argument) and matches the eye test and feel of the team doesnt it? The other numbers are quite close to normal while Marner's is the only outlier of the bunch.

If you want a "stat" that might explain the record:

Goal Against/60 since 2016: 2.88
Goals Against/60 with Marner not in the lineup: 3.77

Why they give up almost a goal a game more with him out of the lineup is a good example of how underrated defensive play is in the Toronto market (and around here).

I think those numbers overall are actually encouraging for the team as it shows how strong they are away from their stars and shows the heart of a team in that they band together to overcome injury issues. They just have a hard time overcoming Marner's absence as it looks (and feels) like he drives the team more than anyone else.

 

[Gabriel426]

Here is a stat for you guys.
Leafs with AM, WN and MM have not won a playoff series, best result Game 7.
Leafs with Bozak, Phil and JVR never won a playoff series, best result Game 7.

I guess Bozak, Phil and JVR are equal to AM, WN and MM.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's literally wins and losses (dismissing wins and losses as "useless stats" is a new amusing argument) and matches the eye test and feel of the team doesnt it? The other numbers are quite close to normal while Marner's is the only outlier of the bunch.

If you want a "stat" that might explain the record:

Goal Against/60 since 2016: 2.88
Goals Against/60 with Marner not in the lineup: 3.77

Why they give up almost a goal a game more with him out of the lineup is a good example of how underrated defensive play is in the Toronto market (and around here).

I think those numbers overall are actually encouraging for the team as it shows how strong they are away from their stars and shows the heart of a team in that they band together to overcome injury issues. They just have a hard time overcoming Marner's absence as it looks (and feels) like he drives the team more than anyone else.

Like I said, numbers that show that we're a better team without Matthews and a better team without Nylander are useless. If you're going to respond to my post, you should perhaps address what I said instead of throwing more numbers at me.

 

[Notsince67]

Like I said, numbers that show that we're a better team without Matthews and a better team without Nylander are useless. If you're going to respond to my post, you should perhaps address what I said instead of throwing more numbers at me.

If you keep torturing the data and it will confess to anything

 

[Gary Nylund]

If you keep torturing the data and it will confess to anything

Remove the word "and" from this sentence and it will make (grammatical) sense. You could alternatively remove the words "If you" and the sentence will once again make (grammatical) sense.

When your sentences don't follow the rules of the English language, we are left guessing at what it is that you're trying to say. I only point this out because I'd hate for anyone to misinterpret your pearls of wisdom.

You're welcome.

 

[Zybalto]

Like I said, numbers that show that we're a better team without Matthews and a better team without Nylander are useless. If you're going to respond to my post, you should perhaps address what I said instead of throwing more numbers at me.

It's wins and losses....the end results. How could you not like those "numbers"?

The scale also matters here. The fact the other players are still somewhat close to the teams record and the team is completely underwater without Marner matters.


....and yes, wins and losses can sometimes not be indicative of the play of a team. It's one of the things I completely believe in as well....but it's not just wins and losses pointing to this though, It's also every other stat and the eye test and just the feel of the team.

The Leafs coach and players seem to be echoing this as well.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's wins and losses....the end results. How could you not like those "numbers"?

The scale also matters here. The fact the other players are still somewhat close to the teams record and the team is completely underwater without Marner matters.

....and yes, wins and losses can sometimes not be indicative of the play of a team. It's one of the things I completely believe in as well....but it's not just wins and losses pointing to this though, It's also every other stat and the eye test and just the feel of the team.

The Leafs coach and players seem to be echoing this as well.

It's not a matter of liking, or not liking. Common sense tells me that we are a better team with Matthews, therefore any numbers that show the opposite are to be discarded as they are useless. It's pretty straightforward stuff, not sure how I could put it any more clearly.

 

[Gabriel426]

Kind of ironic how when the team could not win playoff series or playing bad, people start criticize AM, JT, MM, Willie and the rest of the core, you guys will come out and say it is a TEAM game and Hockey is not like Basketball where a super star can make or break the team. But when one of them is injured, the same people will show how much the team misses this player and show how the team have difficulties to win without him, thus back to the narrative that an individual could be the difference in Hockey like Basketball.

No doubt Marner is a talented player but you can’t have it both ways. Like I said after the Habs series, it is a complement to say that AM and MM didn’t show up bc if they did, Leafs would have won the series. We don’t say stuff like that about Mik or Engvall, bc whether they show up or not, their impact is very minimum unless they go beast mode and play like a top line player.