Mitch Marner discussion

[The Blueprint]

I would try him in the 2nd PP, why not.

PP1 is rolling, Marner is an unbelievable playmaker who could probably exploit teams PK2. We still have guys who could finish that we could play with him, try it out.

Only risk is hurting mitches ego, but this is a team baby !

 

[Dekes For Days]

However, if the injury has forced them to change the PP1, and the results are an improved PP1, who would want to revert back to a less effective PP1?

A PP that happened to get hot and shoot a wildly unsustainable 36% for a few games does not necessarily equal an improved PP.

 

[Mess]

I think the problem might be do you mess with an improved PP1, or do you place him on PP2?

Obviously, he has to be involved on the PP, but if PP1 is better without him, even his entourage should understand.

There is no "I" in team but there is in MItch.

A team's goal is to win and the game plan should be to do what is best for the crest on the front not the name on the back.

Marner hasn't scored a PP goal in almost 100 games so that seems to be a big enough sample size combined with the current PP#1 stats to cause some pause for thought as to what is best here for the Leafs.

Its doesn't mean Marner isn't a good player that adds value to a team, but the objective of the PP with a man up is to score a goal after all, so if you use goals scored as the driving force in the debate, then the answer should be clear.. The coaching staff has even moved Marner around on the PP#1 to see if that chances things and in the first 20 games the results haven't for him.

Marner has as many PP goals (0) in the first 24 games of the season when he played as he has in the last 6 games (0) when he hasn't.

 

[Twine Tickler]

There were actually 4 Leaf players gone over that time period not just Marner. I would argue that Sandin, Spezza and Dermot were missed as well as Marner.
I don’t think you can fairly attribute that 6 games stretch to Marner being missing without accounting for the other 3 guys

that is not entirely true. Spezz and Sandin played 2 of those 6 games, and Derms came back to the lineup I believe last game. So the only person who has remained out of the lineup has been Mitch over that 6 game stretch.

Again, I am not trying to insinuate all of our disjointed play has been a result of Mitch being out of the lineup exclusively. Of course having Spezz and Sandin out also hurts our team drastically. But the point is, the team has looked sloppy ever since Mitch went out. Including the 2 games Spezza and Sandin played before their suspension/injury. Mitch's absence has far more of a ripple effect than arguably anyone on the team IMO. He plays every situation (RW1, PP1, PK1) and his absence has inevitably made more than one player have to play higher up in the lineup and assume a larger role as a result. The same cannot be said for Sandin, Dermott, and Spezza. They all play complimentary roles that can easily be filled by reserve players.

I really don't think it is a coincidence that we went 4-7-0 last time Marner was out in 2019-20, and we have been struggling to a similar capacity this time around. Sure the results are better (3-2-1), but if you are watching those 6 games it feels like we are miles away from the team that was in California 2.5 weeks ago

 

[Mess]

Logically, you want to improve the team.

marner is a key penalty killer, so no doubt he goes immediately to that role.
However, if the injury has forced them to change the PP1, and the results are an improved PP1, who would want to revert back to a less effective PP1?
If the team comes first, you do what is best for the team right?

Matthews (4), Tavares (2) and Nylander (2) and scored 8 PP goals in the last 6 games of the 11 PP goals scored so they don't seem to be struggling without Marner, and his replacements Spezza (1) and Kasse (2) have scored the other goals while replacing Marner directly on PP#1.

Luckily for the Leafs the PP#1 has absorbed the loss of Marner and forced opportunity on others that seem to be excelling with that added responsibility.

 

[Gary Nylund]

that is not entirely true. Spezz and Sandin played 2 of those 6 games, and Derms came back to the lineup I believe last game. So the only person who has remained out of the lineup has been Mitch over that 6 game stretch.

Again, I am not trying to insinuate all of our disjointed play has been a result of Mitch being out of the lineup exclusively. Of course having Spezz and Sandin out also hurts our team drastically. But the point is, the team has looked sloppy ever since Mitch went out. Including the 2 games Spezza and Sandin played before their suspension/injury. Mitch's absence has far more of a ripple effect than arguably anyone on the team IMO. He plays every situation (RW1, PP1, PK1) and his absence has inevitably made more than one player have to play higher up in the lineup and assume a larger role as a result. The same cannot be said for Sandin, Dermott, and Spezza. They all play complimentary roles that can easily be filled by reserve players.

I really don't think it is a coincidence that we went 4-7-0 last time Marner was out in 2020-21, and we have been struggling to a similar capacity this time around. Sure the results are better (3-2-1), but if you are watching those 6 games it feels like we are miles away from the team that was in California 2.5 weeks ago

That's all true and losing Marner obviously hurts. That said, I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on small sample sizes. If we did, then I believe the numbers would show that we're a better team without Matthews which is obviously ridiculous. We have been somewhat listless as a team since Marner went down but I think we were maybe due for a bit of a letdown, it's not like Marner goes down and everyone just starts playing badly as a matter of course. Anyway, hopefully he's back soon, and hopefully we get our game together even before that happens.

 

[ToneDog]

Matthews (4), Tavares (2) and Nylander (2) and scored 8 PP goals in the last 6 games of the 11 PP goals scored so they don't seem to be struggling without Marner, and his replacements Spezza (1) and Kasse (2) have scored the other goals while replacing Marner directly on PP#1.

You could go back to Marner on the PP and if it goes back to the sh1ts, then it should be clearer as to what the problem is.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Logically, you want to improve the team.

marner is a key penalty killer, so no doubt he goes immediately to that role.
However, if the injury has forced them to change the PP1, and the results are an improved PP1, who would want to revert back to a less effective PP1?
If the team comes first, you do what is best for the team right?

I'm all for trying him on PP2 but I'm a big fan of trying all kinds of different things because why not? The season is basically an 82 game warmup for the playoffs for teams like us (pretty much locks to make the playoffs) so why not use that time to try stuff? If PP1 is rolling without Marner and keeps rolling until he gets back then it seems logical to me to try him on PP2. The only reason not to is Marner's ego not liking it, hopefully that's not an issue. Hopefully Marner would take is as a challenge and try to have PP2 kill it and become PP1, now wouldn't that be something!

 

[ShaneFalco]

If they put him right back on the #1 PP there is a big problem here. Pleasing Mitch over results

 

[Dekes For Days]

If they put him right back on the #1 PP there is a big problem here. Pleasing Mitch over results

There is obviously no problem with putting him back on the #1 PP. It has nothing to do with "pleasing Mitch". It has to do with utilizing one of the best PP players in the league to help the team.

 

[ACC1224]

Leafs PP is currently soaring along at 30.6% the 2nd best mark in the NHL due in part due to scoring 11 PP goals in the last 6 games (during Marner's absence).

Leafs are only 3 W and 3 L during this time away, so a return to the line-up will certainly help Leafs chances of winning games, if he can help produce offense at 5v5, or help the struggling PK improve on its % to surrender less goals, or help defensively cut down on goals against as Leafs have giving up 6, 4, 5, 5, 4, 1 goals against in those 6 games.

The PP is however the one place where he isn't being missed, as its improved.

So my point being do you add him to PP#2 unit while you leave PP#1 firing on all cylinders using Spezza or Kase in his place instead?.

I think the problem might be do you mess with an improved PP1, or do you place him on PP2?

Obviously, he has to be involved on the PP, but if PP1 is better without him, even his entourage should understand.

I guess it will come down to do they think the PP has improved because of his absence or in spite of?

I'd be surprised if he doesn't come back to the first unit and I'll also be surprised if they maintain the pace they are on up until he returns.

 

[Twine Tickler]

That's all true and losing Marner obviously hurts. That said, I wouldn't draw any conclusions based on small sample sizes. If we did, then I believe the numbers would show that we're a better team without Matthews which is obviously ridiculous. We have been somewhat listless as a team since Marner went down but I think we were maybe due for a bit of a letdown, it's not like Marner goes down and everyone just starts playing badly as a matter of course. Anyway, hopefully he's back soon, and hopefully we get our game together even before that happens.

Ya I agree, It's definitely a small sample size. 17 games and counting over 2 separate injuries and 2 separate seasons. The combined record in his absence being 7-9-1. I also agree with the Matthews bit, we are not a better team without Matthews at all, even if the record in his absence suggests otherwise. But history would suggest we manage far better with Auston out of the lineup vs. Mitch. Which makes sense to me, given Mitch's impact on the PK.

Which kind of goes to my original point. Mitch is the the one player that disrupts the flow of our team when hurt more than any other player on the team IMO.

Of course if Soupy goes down this year it would likely do the same, or even Muzzin in prior years has had that same effect. But Marner is far more important to our team than some people on here want to believe. His 2-way ability is massively underrated IMO.

 

[Antropovsky]

that is not entirely true. Spezz and Sandin played 2 of those 6 games, and Derms came back to the lineup I believe last game. So the only person who has remained out of the lineup has been Mitch over that 6 game stretch.

Again, I am not trying to insinuate all of our disjointed play has been a result of Mitch being out of the lineup exclusively. Of course having Spezz and Sandin out also hurts our team drastically. But the point is, the team has looked sloppy ever since Mitch went out. Including the 2 games Spezza and Sandin played before their suspension/injury. Mitch's absence has far more of a ripple effect than arguably anyone on the team IMO. He plays every situation (RW1, PP1, PK1) and his absence has inevitably made more than one player have to play higher up in the lineup and assume a larger role as a result. The same cannot be said for Sandin, Dermott, and Spezza. They all play complimentary roles that can easily be filled by reserve players.

I really don't think it is a coincidence that we went 4-7-0 last time Marner was out in 2019-20, and we have been struggling to a similar capacity this time around. Sure the results are better (3-2-1), but if you are watching those 6 games it feels like we are miles away from the team that was in California 2.5 weeks ago

how many miles away from the team that lost 4 in a row in late october are we? Mitch was on the team during that time.The leafs incredible run was bound to end with or without Marner. Also as others have noted, we are missing a plethora of relatively important players, players who are exceptional puck movers... Sandin and Spezza, we also played Woll against the Jets on a back to back. You say these players are easy to replace? So easy that we replaced them with Rubins and Steeves? Steeves wasnt drafted and was playing College hockey ladt year! Remove Tavares or Matthews and instead of Marner during this period and we are bound to struggle and look like lesser of the team. Would Marners offensive stats improve without Matthews? Would the pp improve without Matthews too? Im not so sure. Marner struggled without Matthews at the beginning of the season.

There is no way to actually know how much Marner is actually missed during such a short time, also combined with the other injuries. I agree i think the leafs seem to have gotten worse in areas defensively, but lets not ignore that Matthews and the pp is rolling with him off the roster (again could be a coincidence) and we have other quality players not playing right now. I recall many saying that Matthews was a products of Marners playmaking just as much as Marner was a product of Matthews invredible goal scoring... well if this year is any indication, Marner struggled mightily when Matthews was injured but Matthews production hasnt skipped a beat without Marner, and actually has improved. Again a very small sample size and could be puck luck or a coincidence..

 

[ShaneFalco]

There is obviously no problem with putting him back on the #1 PP. It has nothing to do with "pleasing Mitch". It has to do with utilizing one of the best PP players in the league to help the team.

Who hasn't scored in over 100 games on the PP. That's special right there - and of course you're going to get assists playing with AM.
Talk about twisting things and mental gymnastics. You are like a dog on a bone - just unrelenting

 

[Stephen]

There is obviously no problem with putting him back on the #1 PP. It has nothing to do with "pleasing Mitch". It has to do with utilizing one of the best PP players in the league to help the team.

Mitch will always have a home on PP1 but if things are working well and the Leafs are still on a special teams heater when he returns from injury there’s no reason for them to scrap everything for Mitch Management right away. Let him catch up with reps on PP2.

 

[VanW27]

Marner is a terrific player, phenomenal talent, works hard, impacts all aspects of the game but..

The guy is killing our Power Play, I'm not sure how you could watch the PP with him on it over the last year and half - 2 years and how badly it struggles and not see that.

Lots of people point to the shot, personally I don't see that as the issue at all, the kid is in his own head out there on the PP. He has been, and will again be a great PP guy, but for the past 1.5 to 2 season he has been awful. Stick him on PP2 and let him figure it out there.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Ya I agree, It's definitely a small sample size. 17 games and counting over 2 separate injuries and 2 separate seasons. The combined record in his absence being 7-9-1. I also agree with the Matthews bit, we are not a better team without Matthews at all, even if the record in his absence suggests otherwise. But history would suggest we manage far better with Auston out of the lineup vs. Mitch. Which makes sense to me, given Mitch's impact on the PK.

Which kind of goes to my original point. Mitch is the the one player that disrupts the flow of our team when hurt more than any other player on the team IMO.

Of course if Soupy goes down this year it would likely do the same, or even Muzzin in prior years has had that same effect. But Marner is far more important to our team than some people on here want to believe. His 2-way ability is massively underrated IMO.

Well the sample size is too small so the history is irrelevant IMO. That said, it's an interesting question - which player being out of the lineup would hurt more? Let's say for arguments sake, we had to choose one of the two for one playoff series. I would rather keep Matthews in myself if it was up to me but it's at least worth thinking about and I agree that Marner's 2-way ability is underrated.

Anyhow, just thinking out loud and definitely not looking to start a debate or anything. They're both great players and we're lucky to have them both on our team.

 

[therealkoho]

I guess no one appreciates Mitch

Hard to believe really! Marner is a top 15 player, heck maybe even top 10 player in the league, but because of "contract" and the perception of how or why he got it, LeaFland can't see the forest for the trees. Poor kid has only led the team in scoring every year he's been here and yet this, "but they're only assists" narrative got started and all of a sudden Mitch has become a redheaded stepchild in need of a beating!

Look at the chatter late last year and early this season about Morgan Rielly, up until recently Morgan was lower than dog excrement on the bottom of a pair of Lucchese's, now he's back to being our golden boy.

I think it's ridiculous really although I've watched the same things happen over time with various players, LeaFland is never to be taken seriously, ever!

 

[Notsince67]

Mitch will always have a home on PP1 but if things are working well and the Leafs are still on a special teams heater when he returns from injury there’s no reason for them to scrap everything for Mitch Management right away. Let him catch up with reps on PP2.

Not opposed to it. Players are superstitious. You need to ride streaks as far as you can. That also goes for the 1st line 5x5. While I don't think it's playing better, it isnt terrible. Depending on what kind of injury Marner sustained, they could choose to put him on the 3rd for a spell to lighten the load a bit.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Who hasn't scored in over 100 games on the PP. That's special right there - and of course you're going to get assists playing with AM.
Talk about twisting things and mental gymnastics. You are like a dog on a bone - just unrelenting

Has it really been 100 games? Yikes! I'm curious, what are the longest stretches without a goal for the other guys on our PP1 or even PP1 on other teams? That's a rhetorical question as I'm not curious enough to figure out where to find this information and I don't expect anyone else to do so either, just thinking about just how unlikely a 100 game stretch is but it sure does seem like a lot, like maybe some kind of record even. Really hope he scores one soon so we can stop thinking about this.

 

[Orfieus]

I keep on saying if Toronto is going to trade one of Matthews, Nylander or Marner you trade Marner

1 - Greater return
2 - More cap space
3 - Scorers >>> Playmakers

 

[therealkoho]

Dough72, have the good manners to understand this is a device world. Your run on sentence of a paragraph identifies you as a person who grew up most of your life, without devices.

Two sentences to a paragraph, or you are foreign to me and many like me..

We care more about our eyesight than another fans opinion who has no access to the dressing room and thus the real story.

Back to subject, I can only infer now, not cite...

So, someone find me a clip of marner and nylander embracing after a goal or even giving a bump to each other...

I don't think I have to say much more...

I posit, that Marner, is the hidden cancer of the team, and the team won't do much till he gets traded for .60 cents on the dollar.

Just my opinion lol. No facts, no inside...

But show me a gif or a clip please.

His hissy fit during practise, is well it speaks volumes..not much ore needs to be said...

just to ponder, how do you know it's not Muzzin that is the cancer eating away at the teams unity

speculation is no better than rumour or gossip

 

[Dekes For Days]

Who hasn't scored in over 100 games on the PP.

Not only is that not even true, but even with a personal goal-scoring slump in that game state, Marner is still extremely impactful on the PP, in his role helping others score goals. There is obviously no problem with putting one of the best PP players in the league back on a team's #1 PP.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not opposed to it. Players are superstitious. You need to ride streaks as far as you can. That also goes for the 1st line 5x5. While I don't think it's playing better, it isnt terrible. Depending on what kind of injury Marner sustained, they could choose to put him on the 3rd for a spell to lighten the load a bit.

I like the idea of him on PP2 and looking at it as a challenge - OK guys, let's kick PP1's butts and become PP1 ourselves.

A little friendly internal competition to get the juices flowing is never a bad thing. But then, I'm a big believer in trying all kinds of different things so there is that.

 

[ULF_55]

I guess it will come down to do they think the PP has improved because of his absence or in spite of?

I'd be surprised if he doesn't come back to the first unit and I'll also be surprised if they maintain the pace they are on up until he returns.

Yeah, the PP streak they have been is likely unsustainable with or without marner.

Matthews, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly, Kase

Might be one player on that list who isn't the same?

Anyone have a trendline of the PP?