Mitch Marner Discussion Continued
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Wafflewhipper
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- Jan 18, 2014
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Wafflewhipper
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I couldn’t agree more. 20-21-22 minutes per game would be high energy stuff. He wants to kill penalties but ya know, he’s not the one who makes the decision to send him out there to wear himself down/out.
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Marner's 4 points against the Habs were due to him being tired?
Crazy how Ehlers, Scheifele, Wheeler, Dubois and Stastny only combined for 2 points in the second round against the Habs. Must have been really tired too?
One of the other great RW in the league Stone managed zero points in 6 games against the Habs. Another tired player as the great Habs team held Vegas, the third highest scoring team in the league last year, to 2 or less goals the last 5 games. This fatigue thing must be contagious?
Nothing to do with a certain goaltender who, after having been a mediocre starter much of the year, having the best stats of any goalie after the first 3 rounds at the same time Montreal was giving up more shots/chances.
There is literally no evidence Marner's production in the playoffs had anything to do with fatigue.....and every single stat that we use to measure effort from possession to shot differentials to expected goal differential to straight-up goal differential has him near the top of the playoff charts.
The only thing I could think of that would indicate fatigue would be giveaway rate and it actually fell by almost half from the regular season to the playoffs.
The only argument that works against Marner is that he lacked finishing against Price but who didnt? There wasnt a goalie that carried his team harder in the playoffs.
How the hell did friggin Perry, Stall and Armia torch our team for 12 points? That wasnt talked about enough and was a much bigger factor in the last postseason series....and that had nothing to do with Marner.
Crazy how Ehlers, Scheifele, Wheeler, Dubois and Stastny only combined for 2 points in the second round against the Habs. Must have been really tired too?
One of the other great RW in the league Stone managed zero points in 6 games against the Habs. Another tired player as the great Habs team held Vegas, the third highest scoring team in the league last year, to 2 or less goals the last 5 games. This fatigue thing must be contagious?
Nothing to do with a certain goaltender who, after having been a mediocre starter much of the year, having the best stats of any goalie after the first 3 rounds at the same time Montreal was giving up more shots/chances.
There is literally no evidence Marner's production in the playoffs had anything to do with fatigue.....and every single stat that we use to measure effort from possession to shot differentials to expected goal differential to straight-up goal differential has him near the top of the playoff charts.
The only thing I could think of that would indicate fatigue would be giveaway rate and it actually fell by almost half from the regular season to the playoffs.
The only argument that works against Marner is that he lacked finishing against Price but who didnt? There wasnt a goalie that carried his team harder in the playoffs.
How the hell did friggin Perry, Stall and Armia torch our team for 12 points? That wasnt talked about enough and was a much bigger factor in the last postseason series....and that had nothing to do with Marner.
Price had a 924%, Campbell had a 934% so the old Price is the reason we lost is complete bull****
Our best scoring line didn't score, the Matthews line got massive minutes, ample PP time and did Jack **** with it
I also couldn't give a rats ass if other teams scorers didn't score, we pay our high end guys more than all of them so they don't get any bloody excuses, they had every advantage and the gagged on it
Also game 7 was the most gutless displays I've witnessed and every player on that team should hang there heads in shame
Excuses Excuses Excuses, that's all I see and I'll be bent if I'm going to accept that from a line with 2 guys making 11M
thank you for f***s sake you'd think this dudes PR team is paying off people in every hockey forum for some of these takes.
These kid f***ing demanded 11m and then did absolute dick all. Dubas can get canned for giving him so much as well for all I care.
Gary Nylund
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- Oct 10, 2013
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I agree that Marner being tired is a non-excuse. Rolling along all season and then being tired the moment the playoffs start just seems like too big a co-incidence. As far as Price and Vegas etc., that's no excuse either. Marner is paid to be the best and that means going up against the best competition and playing at a high level, not looking like you're tired. If every time he goes up against elite competition he's gonna suck, I sure as hell am not going to shrug my shoulders and say oh well, the competition is good so can't really blame the guy, f*** that. If we keep losing to teams without any 11M dollar players who are out-playing our mega stars, then maybe it's time to admit that the was our built our team is flawed and make some changes.
Any proof that Marner was exhausted?
To me, it sounds more like baseless Marner hate
Gary Nylund
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It sounds like the opposite to me. If he was exhausted, the the coach is to blame. If he wasn't, then there is no excuse for his sub par play (at least I can't think of one).
Goaltending can make or break an entire team. They have more influence on the game than any other position. That doesn't mean the rest of the team doesn't matter.
But he can handle the workload he's been given. There was no evidence he was "exhausted". If he was, that line wouldn't have been dominating the flow of play. The only thing you can call an issue this year was conversion - something that has little to do with being tired, and something that every single star (other than Nylander) that faced Price this playoffs struggled with, regardless of ice time.
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ACC1224
Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
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Over tired can lead to slow decision making. That was in abundance in the series.
Trying to have an honest opinion about something doesn't mean you hate it.
You have to remember the Habs do have an 11 million dollar player. I forgive you for forgetting though as he only peeks his head out for a month here and there over the last couple of years.....and he's the only players who actually outplayed our stars.
Every team is flawed and the little tweaks and a little luck are what make the difference. Tavares was on a heater coming into the playoffs and him going down was a nasty blow the team had to deal with. Carey Price, who looked completely lost in net much of the season, all of a sudden raised his play 30+ points for a month hurts too. We should have had the advantage on special teams but both teams had 3 goals apiece at the end of the series which should not happened (Here is where some more Marner criticism can certainly come in) Losing top 2 D (Muzzin) in game 6 isnt talked about much as well. Losing 2 of your top 7 players would hurt any team (and no other team in the playoffs had this happen, let alone in a 6 game stretch)
In the end, though, most of the game is played at 5v5 though. Which players succeeded and failed in their assignments of not just scoring but preventing the other team from scoring? It doesnt matter if you score 10 goals here if you give up 11. Sure the points look nice but you still did a crap job....and it also depends on who you are playing against.
...and who did the best job there? Who are the best 5v5 scorers in hockey? Number 1 is of course Matthews.....but who has the 2nd highest 5v5 goal scoring rate in the NHL, not just this past season but over the last 3 seasons that have been masked by a few freak injuries. It's not Pasta..its not Ovi.....it's a guy by the name of Brenden Gallagher. (a fun bit of trivia that no one ever gets the answer to) I was kinda excited to see the battle between the two-way monster lines but it ended up being a mismatch, only masked by the play of Price and Matthews hitting a bunch of posts. The Habs didnt get a goal on the Leafs with Marner on the ice until game 7. Ended up a 3-1 goal differential. I know we dont pay him for defensive play but the simple math is that if every Leaf has that same goal differential then its a 4 game sweep of the Habs.
I wouldnt say Marner had a great series, but he wasnt that bad either. Throwing money numbers around to me doesnt mean anything when our depth forwards not named Spezza get caved in all series or we have individual moronic plays giving hard-fought games away by throwing pizzas up the middle. (wonder why Gally doesn't have a contract yet?)The Leafs only gave up 9 5v5 goals all series and there is the "how will we ever replace him" Bogo on the ice for 6 of them. (this might be related to depth forward thing).
Work on special teams (new coaches), get more net-front presence, fix depth lines defensive issues and stay healthy. Thats the direction to move forward. Running into the best goalie of the playoffs 3 years in a row has literally driven some people insane I think.
You think Campbell outplayed Price in the series?
I've noticed the trend of taking flat save% and then acting like one team wasnt far more dominant than the other. (High danger chances were 82-55 Leafs in the series for example)
Lots of teams get goalied in the playoffs. Edmonton got stuffed by Helle. Price owned Winnipeg and Vegas after us. It's the most important position in the game. Theres a reason why Montreal made it to the finals. He was the best keeper of the playoffs. You cant even think of another MVP on the team. If I asked anyone around here who was the Leafs MVP, they would probably say Nylander. Just saying....
Wafflewhipper
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Montreal out hit us 2 to 1. He was worn down. They targeted our star players with majority of their hits. With no response back i might add.
Montreal beat the living daylights out of our top players. They were probably sore and worn and tired. We did the same thing to great Ottawa team. Beat the hell out of them but they were way more physical than this past team we had.
Ritchie,Gabriel and Simmonds will come in much more handy than people realize right now. Leafs Just were not a nasty team to play and they tired out nobody really. It was always a no hitter against us, easy games some players are quoted as saying publicly. What a reputation you don’t want.
Wafflewhipper
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Tavares was a big loss but who’s making excuses right. They beat us we lost and got man handled in the process. Marner choked out along with Matthews. Matthews got pushed around and took it the majority of the series. That can never happen to him again it was embarrassing for him and fans.
Marner needs to play mean. He did it in the Ohl at least sometimes. The guy better get on the weights
Marner needs to play mean. He did it in the Ohl at least sometimes. The guy better get on the weights
BertCorbeau
F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Keep in mind Marner hasn't scored a goal in the playoffs in 17 games. And in those 17 games he only has 10 assists.
If he wants to be paid like the best he needs to perform like the best. This includes both regular season and in the playoffs. And this means being able to beat the best at the same time.
If he wants to be paid like the best he needs to perform like the best. This includes both regular season and in the playoffs. And this means being able to beat the best at the same time.
ACC1224
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Keep in mind? How can anyone forget when it's posted over and over again, day after day. One thing this board isn't short on is redundancy.
Montreal was pretty confident after they got up on us. You'd be surprised what that level of confidence boost can do to a team in the playoffs. I don't think it was just Price beating Vegas, Montreal did a great job in front of him.
Our series with them was extra painful because the stats you referenced painted a very accurate picture when they went up 3-1 in the series but the team showed the same lackluster play we've seen in years prior when it came to trying to close out a series. Anyone can throw all the stats in the world around at this - the whole world watches and notices when this Leafs team mentally quits, we've all seen it multiple times.
And yes, I do think Campbell outplayed Price. Not his fault his dumbass team gives up 2-0's in playoff OT.
Most of the time Leafs get hit because they always have the puck but you have to remember that the most lopsided game in terms of hits was the Leafs 4-0 win (outhit 40-16) and the game the Leafs outhit (and outshot and out-chanced) the Habs was the "gutless" game 7 loss.
ToneDog
56 years and counting. #FireTheShanaClan!
Actually he is being paid like the best and doesn't need to perform like the best yet. He has a few m0re kicks at the can before he is up for renewal.
I think Campbell was great although he weakened down the stretch....and yes, that was a foolish mistake that cost the team the series by an individual who lost his chance to keep playing with the team.
...but the stats also show that in the final 3 games, the Leafs on ice dominance of play was basically unchanged but team save% was:
Montreal: .945
Toronto: .881
Outshot them 109-84, out-chanced them 97-72 (high danger chances 38-23) and even outhit them in the last game.
Got goalied man..
Yeah, hit watching is meaningless. Montreal hitting more than us had precisely nothing to do with why we lost.
Wafflewhipper
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Game 5 had me mad. That was disgusting they didn’t finish them off. Turns out that game motivated Montreal and they come all the way back. That was the momentum swing. I like the bit of nasty coming in to the lineup. I’m hoping it gets everyone ornery enough to have more intensity when they really need it. Montreal laid the hits on in the offensive zone hard and heavy. They wanted to play that way in our end
Not to downplay your thought process and no disrespect but all I see is excuses on top of excuses on top of ifs ands and buts. Rationalizing it all might look good on paper but we are left with the same result. Saying Marner wasn't that bad 0g in 18 playoff games whether he is a pass first player or not is not good. No pp goal for the last year is not good and in fact is bad. Marners 5 out of 6 penalties are over the glass is not good. The teams inablility to finish a series when its on the line and totally shit the bed in the final game...again is not good.
Its funny how we keep running into a hot goalie and are just unlucky re Matthews posts or Price playing well .Why are we paying 3 guys 11 milly again? I get that the margin of error is slim but if we keep ending up on the wrong side of that equation is that just bad luck? imo it is not. We are getting exactly what we deserve.
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