Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Aashir]

Nothing left to say. Everything has been repeated so many times that it’s engrained in my memory.

 

[Racer88]

If Nurse gets 9.2 Mitch is fully deserving of the contract.

Nope. All that means is those are 2 guys not worth their contract

 

[TakeTheBody]

Slow news day?

 

[BertCorbeau]

Regular season production has been fine*

Needs to perform in the playoffs to justify his contract


*except for the PP, which he needs to be better and more consistent.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The PP went through one of the worst stretches because Matthews and Marner couldn't create anything.

That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, but even if that were true, that followed 4 and a half years of excellent PP play, so it's pretty misleading to represent what Marner is by cherry picking the one thing in one game state that he least excels at, and then look at the worst stretch of his career for that specific thing. It's like evaluating what Ovechkin is based on his assist totals in his worst year.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Regular season production has been fine*

Needs to perform in the playoffs to justify his contract

*except for the PP, which he needs to be better and more consistent.

Sort of sums up the team as a whole. Marner is the most extreme example of course so he's sort of the poster boy ATM for this failing franchise.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Sort of sums up the team as a whole. Marner is the most extreme example of course so he's sort of the poster boy ATM for this failing franchise.

Nailed it!

 

[Mess]

Sort of sums up the team as a whole. Marner is the most extreme example of course so he's sort of the poster boy ATM for this failing franchise.

Unfortunately, this last playoffs showed without JT, that Leafs with the 3 Amigos were unable to beat the vast underdog Montreal Canadiens, where Marner and his 4 assists was the weakest of the 3.

Leafs have lost multiple playoff series with Tavares and the 3 Amigo's also, but this year by removing him from the equation it showed and highlighted the kids inabilities to raise their games when needed, even when they tried to use his injury as a rally cry.

Marner hasn't scored a goal in his last 18 playoff games and during that time Leafs have lost 11 games and 3 series, while he's contributed a mere 2 assists during those lost games, so its not unlike he is being falsely signaled out as the scapegoat for his playoff performance either.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Unfortunately, this last playoffs showed without JT, that Leafs with the 3 Amigos were unable to beat the vast underdog Montreal Canadiens, where Marner and his 4 assists was the weakest of the 3.

Leafs have lost multiple playoff series with Tavares and the 3 Amigo's also, but this year by removing him from the equation it showed and highlighted the kids inabilities to raise their games when needed, even when they tried to use his injury as a rally cry.

Marner hasn't scored a goal in his last 18 playoff games and during that time Leafs have lost 11 games and 3 series, while he's contributed a mere 2 assists during those lost games, so its not unlike he is being falsely signaled out as the scapegoat for his playoff performance either.

They all performed under Babcock though…

 

[Mess]

They all performed under Babcock though…

Marner best seasons came in his 1st 2 X playoff years because he was sheltered playing with JVR and Bozak on line #3 against Washington (1-3-4 points in 6 games) and then played with Marleau and Kadri against Boston on line #2 where he put up 2-7-9 points in 2017-18, during regular season when Leafs were setting team records.

Babcock also limited him to 17-18 minutes ATOI while the more TOI/g he gets now up to 24-25 minutes he struggles offensively.

Mitchell Marner Stats

Regular Season | Postseason

POSTSEASON STATS
SEASON	TEAM	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	GTG	TOI/G	PROD
'16-'17	TOR .	6	1	3	4	1	0	9	11.1	0	2	0	0	0	--	17:48	26:42
'17-'18	TOR	7	2	7	9	2	4	17	11.8	0	2	0	0	1	--	17:03	13:16
'18-'19	TOR	7	2	2	4	-4	2	19	10.5	0	2	1	0	1	--	20:35	36:01
'19-'20	TOR	5	0	4	4	-1	2	15	0.0	0	2	0	0	0	--	24:39	30:49
'20-'21	TOR .	7	0	4	4	1	4	19	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	--	24:43	43:16
Career	32	5	20	25	-1	12	79	6.3	0	9	1	0	2	0	--	--

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Stonehands1990]

Marner best seasons came in his 1st 2 X playoff years because he was sheltered playing with JVR and Bozak on line #3 against Washington (1-3-4 points in 6 games) and then played with Marleau and Kadri against Boston on line #2 where he put up 2-7-9 points in 2017-18, during regular season when Leafs were setting team records.

Babcock also limited him to 17-18 minutes ATOI while the more TOI/g he gets now up to 24-25 minutes he struggles offensively.

Mitchell Marner Stats

Regular Season | Postseason

POSTSEASON STATS
SEASON	TEAM	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	GTG	TOI/G	PROD
'16-'17	TOR .	6	1	3	4	1	0	9	11.1	0	2	0	0	0	--	17:48	26:42
'17-'18	TOR	7	2	7	9	2	4	17	11.8	0	2	0	0	1	--	17:03	13:16
'18-'19	TOR	7	2	2	4	-4	2	19	10.5	0	2	1	0	1	--	20:35	36:01
'19-'20	TOR	5	0	4	4	-1	2	15	0.0	0	2	0	0	0	--	24:39	30:49
'20-'21	TOR .	7	0	4	4	1	4	19	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	--	24:43	43:16
Career	32	5	20	25	-1	12	79	6.3	0	9	1	0	2	0	--	--

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Matthews ripped Washington for 4 goals and Boston for 5 in one series. The series he drew Chara and Bergeron he was shutdown but Marner put up 9pts. The idea that they’re playoff chokers is overstated. Keefe doesn’t deploy them properly

Matchups and overplaying them

 

[Mess]

Matthews ripped Washington for 4 goals and Boston for 5 in one series. The series he drew Chara and Bergeron he was shutdown but Marner put up 9pts. The idea that they’re playoff chokers is overstated. Keefe doesn’t deploy them properly

Matchups and overplaying them

I've stolen this concept from the Babcock approach idea and think the best thing the Leafs can do is spread the wealth and put 1 X $11 mil player on their own lines and build a balanced top 9.

Babcock vs Washington.

Hyman -- Matthews -- Brown
Komarov -- Kadri -- Nylander
JVR --- Bozak -- Marner

Leafs in 2021-2022

XXXX -- Matthews -- XXXX
XXXX -- Tavares ----- XXXX
XXXX -- Nylander -- Marner

Some people confuse what having a "deep team" means if you put all your eggs in one basket and then have them shutdown, where if you balance the offense across 3 lines in your top 9 its impossible for the opponent to match up against all lines which creates mismatches and advantages for your own team. Roll all your lines 17-18 minutes and play the hot one more perhaps in a game by game basis.

Getting Marner away from the oppositions best shutdown C, top D pairing and allow him to play against other teams 2nd and 3rd lines and it will return more playoff production. IMO

 

[Bluelines]

.9$%

Regular season production has been fine*

Needs to perform in the playoffs to justify his contract


*except for the PP, which he needs to be better and more consistent.

Regular season production was elite, there were only 3 players with points totals higher than Mitch. I get that people want to dismiss Mitch's accomplishments in the regular season, because if you admit he is an elite winger , with elite production stats , complaining about a 7 game stretch of season, while ignoring a 50+game stretch, would make the complainer look like that crazy guy on the street corner, with no pants, holding the World is ending sign.

It a fact he has the 2nd highest points total of his draft class, its a fact that he scored more regular season points than 99.9% of the league and its a fact he has had 2 poor playoff rounds in a row, supplemented by poor coaching.

I'm a betting man and I'm going to bet on Mitch 100% of the time. to focus on him when Matthews gets a pass, while Keefe gets a pass, while Dubas gets a pass, Malhotra gets a pass .... is extremely myopic. There are a handful of people that deserve to be called out and need to get their S#it together before you get to Matthews and Mitch.

 

[Bluelines]

I've stolen this concept from the Babcock approach idea and think the best thing the Leafs can do is spread the wealth and put 1 X $11 mil player on their own lines and build a balanced top 9.

Babcock vs Washington.

Hyman -- Matthews -- Brown
Komarov -- Kadri -- Nylander
JVR --- Bozak -- Marner

Leafs in 2021-2022

XXXX -- Matthews -- XXXX
XXXX -- Tavares ----- XXXX
XXXX -- Nylander -- Marner

Some people confuse what having a "deep team" means if you put all your eggs in one basket and then have them shutdown, where if you balance the offense across 3 lines in your top 9 its impossible for the opponent to match up against all lines which creates mismatches and advantages for your own team. Roll all your lines 17-18 minutes and play the hot one more perhaps in a game by game basis.

Getting Marner away from the oppositions best shutdown C, top D pairing and allow him to play against other teams 2nd and 3rd lines and it will return more playoff production. IMO

I've been posting about this approach since the Columbus loss, make it easy on the other team and you make it hard on yourself. Stacking Tavares/Marner/Matthews on one line is a OHL move, where you just take super dominate players and overwhelm the other team, typically that wont work in the NHL. Boston is unique with their super line.

 

[Stephen]

I've been posting about this approach since the Columbus loss, make it easy on the other team and you make it hard on yourself. Stacking Tavares/Marner/Matthews on one line is a OHL move, where you just take super dominate players and overwhelm the other team, typically that wont work in the NHL. Boston is unique with their super line.

The part of the fanbase calling for line stacking and mirroring the Bruins Perfection Line was definitely not considering the potential advantages of developing three lines with at least one Big 4 on each of them. As time goes on, we may be in a worse position to spread it out that thin, but we don't have the same ingredients that would produce a Perfection Line.

 

[nuck]

I've been posting about this approach since the Columbus loss, make it easy on the other team and you make it hard on yourself. Stacking Tavares/Marner/Matthews on one line is a OHL move, where you just take super dominate players and overwhelm the other team, typically that wont work in the NHL. Boston is unique with their super line.

You certainly don't try it for the first time in a key game. Maybe they did it from time to time during the season but I don't remember it. Changing things up to catch the opposition without a strategy isn't a bad idea but they need to do it enough times during the regular season that players get comfortable. If you are replacing a Hyman with a JT, he can do stuff Zach could not hope to, but without live game play to make things function smoothly, Marner and Matthews are still wired to what Hyman will typically do and not what Tavares can do.

Same as the hypothetical dropping Mitch to the 3rd line to create scoring there. If they practice it they can catch the opposition completely unprepared and feast on the line matchup but without enough preparation Mitch is instinctively expecting his line mates to be where Zach and AM go. No look passes only work if you know exactly where someone will be and split second decisions that now take two seconds while you look for someone allow the defenders to set up at the same time.

You need to prepare for the playoffs before the playoffs start.

 

[Stonehands1990]

I've been posting about this approach since the Columbus loss, make it easy on the other team and you make it hard on yourself. Stacking Tavares/Marner/Matthews on one line is a OHL move, where you just take super dominate players and overwhelm the other team, typically that wont work in the NHL. Boston is unique with their super line.

I feel like SO MANY of us have been pushing for this very simple concept. Let the big guys bring the other players up. You can still load up a line periodically. Quennville, Babcock, Trotz and Laviolette all do the exact same thing

 

[BertCorbeau]

.9$%

Regular season production was elite, there were only 3 players with points totals higher than Mitch. I get that people want to dismiss Mitch's accomplishments in the regular season, because if you admit he is an elite winger , with elite production stats , complaining about a 7 game stretch of season, while ignoring a 50+game stretch, would make the complainer look like that crazy guy on the street corner, with no pants, holding the World is ending sign.

It a fact he has the 2nd highest points total of his draft class, its a fact that he scored more regular season points than 99.9% of the league and its a fact he has had 2 poor playoff rounds in a row, supplemented by poor coaching.

I'm a betting man and I'm going to bet on Mitch 100% of the time. to focus on him when Matthews gets a pass, while Keefe gets a pass, while Dubas gets a pass, Malhotra gets a pass .... is extremely myopic. There are a handful of people that deserve to be called out and need to get their S#it together before you get to Matthews and Mitch.

When I say fine, I mean relative to his contract. He's being paid to be an elite producer and in the regular season he is. Thing being that at his cost, expectation is that he does the same in the playoffs. Which he hasn't in the last 3 playoff series. The proof is in the pudding right there.

He shouldn't be the only one to blame. But he does burden a lot of it given what he's paid versus what he's done to help the Leafs try to win.

 

[Gabriel426]

Unfortunately, this last playoffs showed without JT, that Leafs with the 3 Amigos were unable to beat the vast underdog Montreal Canadiens, where Marner and his 4 assists was the weakest of the 3.

Leafs have lost multiple playoff series with Tavares and the 3 Amigo's also, but this year by removing him from the equation it showed and highlighted the kids inabilities to raise their games when needed, even when they tried to use his injury as a rally cry.

Marner hasn't scored a goal in his last 18 playoff games and during that time Leafs have lost 11 games and 3 series, while he's contributed a mere 2 assists during those lost games, so its not unlike he is being falsely signaled out as the scapegoat for his playoff performance either.

They won THREE games without JT.
I don’t think they suddenly realized JT wasn’t playing with them starting in Game 5. I just don’t like using JT injury as an excuse and it seemed like there is always an excuse for the Leafs.

They(Coaches and players) collectively didn’t perform as expected(based on regulation season results and not fans expectation), which led to losing in the First Round against the Habs after leading 3-1 in the Best of Seven Series.

Some individual players did as expected(regular seasons stats), some played great(based on regular season stats) and some just choked(based on regular season stats).

 

[ShaneFalco]

They won THREE games without JT.
I don’t think they suddenly realized JT wasn’t playing with them starting in Game 5. I just don’t like using JT injury as an excuse and it seemed like there is always an excuse for the Leafs.

They(Coaches and players) collectively didn’t perform as expected(based on regulation season results and not fans expectation), which led to losing in the First Round against the Habs after leading 3-1 in the Best of Seven Series.

Some individual players did as expected(regular seasons stats), some played great(based on regular season stats) and some just choked(based on regular season stats).

Well said

 

[Racer88]

Marner best seasons came in his 1st 2 X playoff years because he was sheltered playing with JVR and Bozak on line #3 against Washington (1-3-4 points in 6 games) and then played with Marleau and Kadri against Boston on line #2 where he put up 2-7-9 points in 2017-18, during regular season when Leafs were setting team records.

Babcock also limited him to 17-18 minutes ATOI while the more TOI/g he gets now up to 24-25 minutes he struggles offensively.

Mitchell Marner Stats

Regular Season | Postseason

POSTSEASON STATS
SEASON	TEAM	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	GTG	TOI/G	PROD
'16-'17	TOR .	6	1	3	4	1	0	9	11.1	0	2	0	0	0	--	17:48	26:42
'17-'18	TOR	7	2	7	9	2	4	17	11.8	0	2	0	0	1	--	17:03	13:16
'18-'19	TOR	7	2	2	4	-4	2	19	10.5	0	2	1	0	1	--	20:35	36:01
'19-'20	TOR	5	0	4	4	-1	2	15	0.0	0	2	0	0	0	--	24:39	30:49
'20-'21	TOR .	7	0	4	4	1	4	19	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	--	24:43	43:16
Career	32	5	20	25	-1	12	79	6.3	0	9	1	0	2	0	--	--

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Looks like he can’t handle first line minutes and first line opposition. I’m not sure if that describes a player being paid 11 million

 

[Stephen]

Looks like he can’t handle first line minutes and first line opposition. I’m not sure if that describes a player being paid 11 million

If we're stuck with him, as we appear to be, maybe we should put him and Willie on a "third" line and feast on worse matchups with Matthews and Tavares spread out on other lines.

 

[Racer88]

If we're stuck with him, as we appear to be, maybe we should put him and Willie on a "third" line and feast on worse matchups with Matthews and Tavares spread out on other lines.

I’m in for trying that….

 

[pucksakes666]

He’ll either be in top 10 for scoring next season or teams will figure him out and he’ll just pout and whine as his stats don’t hit 70’s or 80 points

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

He’ll either be in top 10 for scoring next season or teams will figure him out and he’ll just pout and whine as his stats don’t hit 70’s or 80 points

Marner is elite. He'll get his 90+ points (especially if he's playing with Matthews). I just hope that after a second straight series filled with Matthews and Marner not being able to produce in big moments Keefe finally realizes that Matthews and Marner can and should be split up at times. Keefe's inexperience has resulted in him getting dummied coaching wise two series in a row. You can see he's in over his head as his only trump card is "Play Matthews and Marner more". Marner is not ready for these moments against guys who's only job is to shut him down. Stop playing him so much.