Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Mugzy97]

Even if that were true, which most wouldn't agree with, I have to ask the obvious question... who cares? How is that relevant besides Suzuki using a team rival player who his team beat in the playoffs name to get some people listening to what he says.

It's been 5+ years since then, Dvorak has been a 40-50 point center basically during his best years as a player in the NHL, while marner a 90-100 point player.

Dvorak is older, yet hasn't shown the ability to be able to produce at a solid 2C level player. Suzuki brings up an irrelevant and outdated comparison as Dvorak's production and role as a star player at the OHL level hasn't translated to the NHL over a significant sample.

Dvorak breaking out now would becoming a strong 2C who can give 30G and 30A to the team

Marner if he has a down year will be a ppg+ winger who is better defensively than a guy like Dvorak. If Suzuki wants to challenge marner, he should have said he himself is going to be better than Marner this year instead of baiting with a new teammate

Yeah it’s definitely a joke. Suzuki isn’t even near Marner’s tier so he would never take on that impossible task.
I mean, Dvorak had a hell of a season that year statistically, but anybody who watched knows Marner was the driving force, Tkachuk was second best and Dvorak was a passenger who was older.

 

[Zybalto]

Marner/AM/Willie last 12 playoff games were in the first round while Stamkos/Point/Kuch were the Finals and Conf Finals.
That’s a huge difference even if some of the games were played against the same team.
I will admit some of the criticisms toward Marner and AM are overblown but they didn’t do well in the past two playoffs. They(Superstars and Leaders) need to be the best players on the team and the best players in the series, if they are the best players on the team but are not the best players in the series, that’s understandable bc the other team top players are better. However, Marner and AM were far from being the best players for the Leafs over the past two playoffs.

Enough with the excuses, the Leafs need to get it done. If they(all the Leafs players) start making excuses for not advancing, they will always have excuses. It is like a friend of mine who will always have excuses for not working out in the gym, ranging from stuck at work to got the wrong shampoo.

Toronto's past 2 seasons:
Points by Marner/Matthews/Nylander: 381 (33%)
Points by all other players: 772

Toronto's last 12 games:
Points by Marner/Matthews/Nylander: 31 (40%)
Points by all other players: 46

Tampa's last 12 games:
Points by Point/Kucherov/Stamkos: 30 (30%)
Points by all other players: 71

 

[Gabriel426]

Toronto's past 2 seasons:
Points by Marner/Matthews/Nylander: 381 (33%)
Points by all other players: 772

Toronto's last 12 games:
Points by Marner/Matthews/Nylander: 31 (40%)
Points by all other players: 46

Tampa's last 12 games:
Points by Point/Kucherov/Stamkos: 30 (30%)
Points by all other players: 71

Instead of using last 12 games, how about just the 1st round games for the past two years.

AM and Marner didn’t show up when it matters. Stop using stats that only support your views. TB last 12 games were SC Finals and Conf Finals.
Leafs last 12 games were playins and 1st round playoffs.
If you can’t acknowledge the difference between playins and 1st round playoffs vs Conf Finals and SC finals, I really don’t know what to say.

edit: did some digging.
Kuch/Point/Stamkos first round playoffs points for the past two seasons were 39 points in 11 games while Stamkos DIDNT even play against BJs(5 games) due to injury. In the 6 games against Panthers in the first round, the trio got 25 points and all averaged a point/game.

 

[mapleleaf979]

Leafs fans are dumb....Marner has a top 10 IQ in the NHL .....has 3 imaginations on the break. If u want to Shhhh hittt on a Leafs contract, its Johnny Tavares with 200lb anchors around his ankles.....if JT doesnt have time and space he is trapped. Marner made Tavares, Kadri, Bozak, JVR all have career years on his line, in the past 3-4 years. Guys, keep it real man....Matthews was on pace for 65 goals with a messed up wrist....

 

[Bomber0104]

Leafs fans are dumb....Marner has a top 10 IQ in the NHL .....has 3 imaginations on the break. If u want to Shhhh hittt on a Leafs contract, its Johnny Tavares with 200lb anchors around his ankles.....if JT doesnt have time and space he is trapped. Marner made Tavares, Kadri, Bozak, JVR all have career years on his line, in the past 3-4 years. Guys, keep it real man....Matthews was on pace for 65 goals with a messed up wrist....

Marner's a damn good player.

But wow, $11M for a winger (the least important position in hockey)....

That's rough.

I blame Marner and Dubas equally.

Lose-lose.

Both of their inevitable reputations.

 

[Zybalto]

Instead of using last 12 games, how about just the 1st round games for the past two years.

AM and Marner didn’t show up when it matters. Stop using stats that only support your views. TB last 12 games were SC Finals and Conf Finals.
Leafs last 12 games were playins and 1st round playoffs.
If you can’t acknowledge the difference between playins and 1st round playoffs vs Conf Finals and SC finals, I really don’t know what to say.

edit: did some digging.
Kuch/Point/Stamkos first round playoffs points for the past two seasons were 39 points in 11 games while Stamkos DIDNT even play against BJs(5 games) due to injury. In the 6 games against Panthers in the first round, the trio got 25 points and all averaged a point/game.

Hey, I just thought this was an almost perfect way to look at winning in the playoffs seeing as the top 3 big scorers on the cup winning champs had roughly the same points as the Leafs big 3 did in a sample of their last 12 playoff games played, a sample that was almost half against the same team from the same playoffs! I thought that maybe that would open some eyes but I never expected the "play differently in different rounds" fallacy......like Vegas would have actually beat Montreal if they met in the first round instead of the third under the exact same conditions.....I mean, what could be more brilliant than that!?.....and you then start to cherry pick stats to try and make an argument. I'm more interested to see why team win and hope the changes are made to make the Leafs a winner. You seem more interested in tearing down two of the guys that actually played well.....even though they didnt get the end production the numbers suggested they should be getting they still played well.

I think all teams are trying at all times to win in the playoffs. There are even cases when the two best teams can meet in the 2nd round or a president trophy winner finds itself up against their bane in the first round and was just unlucky to draw them and would have won the cup otherwise. I love the playoffs because its so unpredictable.

Tampa won the final two rounds on their depth scoring and goaltending being better than the other side which is what you need to come through in the playoffs. When your top end scorers are not completely dominating, you at least need competence from your depth guys.....I mean, the Leafs big players didnt even get a chance to have that big moment as depth players literally threw games away, Gally a minute into overtime, Dermott in overtime with the Leafs outshooting the Habs 12-1 and Sandin (hes a rookie so he gets a pass but jeez). So not only do you have depth players that greatly underperformed their regular season points totals, they were also wore the goat horns gave the deciding games away....but its all Marners and Matthews fault somehow?

Toronto had the awful combo of being the team most savaged by injury + underperforming depth (injuries playing its part here too as the depth players that stepped up into 2nd line roles performed well more or less but the others...sheesh) + running into the surprise goalie of the playoffs. (again in the first round and thats 5 years in a row Leafs goaltending<oppostion goaltending)

Toronto is shuffling the deck chairs down there again in hopes of, not a crazy run by depth players to carry the team but even an average production showing from them....cause if they had that, statistically speaking, the Leafs would have won both series against the Jackets and Habs(another 20 points from those guys would have been nice no?). The focus on Matthews/Marner is a sideshow IMO. Actually, The Leafs are a really talented team that is well-coached so I think just being healthy for a round will put them through the first round next playoffs.....how about that? Lets just go one round without a key guy going down (a luxury 90% of other teams enjoy).

Anyways, I think you obviously want the same goal of a Leafs winner in the playoffs but I'm not trying to spin or be a "stan" or "hater" in any way here. I can only say the Leafs top players are waaaaay down the list of problems of what went wrong, at least thats what almost every stat is screaming out to me. Most people do get dug in on positions in every aspect of life so I try to avoid that and, hey, I'm open to change my mind. We all want the team to win.

Cheers,

Go Leafs Go!

 

[Trapper]

Marner's a damn good player.

But wow, $11M for a winger (the least important position in hockey)....

That's rough.

I blame Marner and Dubas equally.

Lose-lose.

Both of their inevitable reputations.

Marner is just a player.
Nylander is just a player.
They can play here or somewhere else. They don’t own the team or pay players.

It falls on Dubas. Ultimately Dubas decided that the collection of Matthews/Marner/JT/Nylander are the best sum of the parts to win a Cup.

And then he decided that they only needed reasonable depth (or bargains) to win it based on what he paid them.

And then he decided it could be done in 5/6 years based on the term he gave them to full UFA.

And Dubas has decided you’re going to like it by doing the same thing even if it doesn’t go anywhere. Over and over.

Dubas and Dubas. Not Marner.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Yeah it’s definitely a joke. Suzuki isn’t even near Marner’s tier so he would never take on that impossible task.
I mean, Dvorak had a hell of a season that year statistically, but anybody who watched knows Marner was the driving force, Tkachuk was second best and Dvorak was a passenger who was older.

What you are missing is Dvorak, Suzuki and Tkachuk are all much faster straight line skaters and much stronger than Mitch .. Mitch has more edge work and creativity than all 3 combined yes he does but when hockey games get tight (ie games get faster and time and space on puck is significantly reduced) than power and strength prevail in tight spaces .. it is main reason why Mitch has trouble in playoff hockey when he has to play on top 2 lines and why you see him pass on many loose pucks

 

[ACC1224]

Toronto Maple Leafs Brendan Shanahan Mitch Marner - TSN.ca

Of the Maple Leafs core players, Marner has drawn the most criticism for his playoff performance, with four assists in the seven-game series.
“I look at a guy like Mitch, who from the moment he could put on skates, he was saying he wanted to be a Maple Leaf,” said Shanahan. “He’s a great teammate, a great two-way player, is an elite all-star who will likely be an Olympian, and all he wants to do is deliver here in Toronto.
“Yeah, he’s disappointed and frustrated. We all are. That reflects the mood of the entire team.”

 

[Gary Nylund]

Toronto is shuffling the deck chairs down there again in hopes of, not a crazy run by depth players to carry the team but even an average production showing from them....cause if they had that, statistically speaking, the Leafs would have won both series against the Jackets and Habs(another 20 points from those guys would have been nice no?). The focus on Matthews/Marner is a sideshow IMO. Actually, The Leafs are a really talented team that is well-coached so I think just being healthy for a round will put them through the first round next playoffs.....how about that? Lets just go one round without a key guy going down (a luxury 90% of other teams enjoy).

Weren't all our key guys healthy against CLB? IIRC it was just Johnnson who was injured at that point.

I agree that our forward depth hasn't produced but the reason for that might just be that our forward depth isn't very good. Here's the thing, looking at the last playoffs and cap hits, we pay our top 4 guys about 40M combined and if we leave out Tavares who got injured, the other 3 get about 30 million. Now if we call the other 8 guys depth forwards and look at how much we pay them, and how much they produced in the payoffs, I think we'd find that all their cap hits together equate to roughly we pay just one of our superstars and therefore, they actually gave us better value then the stars did. So how is it fair to expect more from those guys when they're providing us with better value?

Yes our depth sucks but that's by design - all the money has gone to the top 4 guys and there's nothing left for quality depth. If you want more from the depth guys, then we need better depth guys and that means finding more cap space so that half our forward group isn't made up of spare parts.

You did the comparison to TB who's depth produced right? How would that comparison look I wonder if we factored in cap hits. I'm too lazy to do the research but I'm pretty sure they paid their bottom 8 forwards more than we did and paid their top 4 forwards less than we did, perhaps that's the answer right there.

Again, this is why the idea of trading Marner seems like an obvious idea. Less top end talent (still plenty of it though) but a better balanced team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't know what the bolded means

It means that a lot of the time difference is OT-related; there was more time per game overall.

I just think they should play much less during the season than Marner did, that way maybe they won't be running on fumes when the playoffs start

He wasn't running on fumes though. Including playoffs, Marner has played 64 and 62 games the past 2 years. That's less than a normal regular season. What's so special about specifically games 60-64 and 56-62? He also got months of rest before the playoffs in 2020, and over a week rest this year. I'm not sure why you think he was playing tired.

The biggest question mark with this team is that they seem to not show up at all in series deciding games.

That's not really true though. Your representation of how the games went is a bit skewed by the inclusion of 5 empty net goals in your totals. For the record, we only allowed 22 and 21 shots in the deciding game the last 2 years. The biggest reason for losing those final games? Our opposing goalies put up 0.950 SV% goaltending (0.979 the past 3 years), and our goalies put up 0.879 SV% goaltending.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It means that a lot of the time difference is OT-related; there was more time per game overall.

He wasn't running on fumes though. Including playoffs, Marner has played 64 and 62 games the past 2 years. That's less than a normal regular season. What's so special about specifically games 60-64 and 56-62? He also got months of rest before the playoffs in 2020, and over a week rest this year. I'm not sure why you think he was playing tired.

That's not really true though. Your representation of how the games went is a bit skewed by the inclusion of 5 empty net goals in your totals. For the record, we only allowed 22 and 21 shots in the deciding game the last 2 years. The biggest reason for losing those final games? Our opposing goalies put up 0.950 SV% goaltending (0.979 the past 3 years), and our goalies put up 0.879 SV% goaltending.

Re. Marner - I don't know why his production has dropped off in the playoffs for the last 3 seasons but like I said, being overworked sounds like a possibility. But like I also said, you think he's been awesome so it's not like we're going to be able to find common ground here.

Re. deciding games - did you watch the games? Do you think we played well? I did watch and IMHO, we sucked in every one of them. Instead of playing like our lives were on the line (which they were), we were listless. Again, if you really think we played well then we're not going to find common ground here either.

 

[ACC1224]

Re. Marner - I don't know why his production has dropped off in the playoffs for the last 3 seasons but like I said, being overworked sounds like a possibility. But like I also said, you think he's been awesome so it's not like we're going to be able to find common ground here.

Re. deciding games - did you watch the games? Do you think we played well? I did watch and IMHO, we sucked in every one of them. Instead of playing like our lives were on the line (which they were), we were listless. Again, if you really think we played well then we're not going to find common ground here either.

Both points are spot on, not even debatable if you're being honest.

 

[zeke]

Toronto Maple Leafs Brendan Shanahan Mitch Marner - TSN.ca

All I hope is that it motivates them all to play pissed off all year long.

Taking their foot off the gas is something that has plagued them forever - even during the regular season where they take early leads a day then almost seem to feel bad for the opponent and just don't have the killer instinct to want to embarrass them and run up the score.

I just hope they let the playoffs humiliation motivate them in every period of every game this year, no matter the score.

 

[Zybalto]

Weren't all our key guys healthy against CLB? IIRC it was just Johnnson who was injured at that point.

I agree that our forward depth hasn't produced but the reason for that might just be that our forward depth isn't very good. Here's the thing, looking at the last playoffs and cap hits, we pay our top 4 guys about 40M combined and if we leave out Tavares who got injured, the other 3 get about 30 million. Now if we call the other 8 guys depth forwards and look at how much we pay them, and how much they produced in the payoffs, I think we'd find that all their cap hits together equate to roughly we pay just one of our superstars and therefore, they actually gave us better value then the stars did. So how is it fair to expect more from those guys when they're providing us with better value?

Yes our depth sucks but that's by design - all the money has gone to the top 4 guys and there's nothing left for quality depth. If you want more from the depth guys, then we need better depth guys and that means finding more cap space so that half our forward group isn't made up of spare parts.

You did the comparison to TB who's depth produced right? How would that comparison look I wonder if we factored in cap hits. I'm too lazy to do the research but I'm pretty sure they paid their bottom 8 forwards more than we did and paid their top 4 forwards less than we did, perhaps that's the answer right there.

Again, this is why the idea of trading Marner seems like an obvious idea. Less top end talent (still plenty of it though) but a better balanced team.

Lost our best playoff dman (in almost every way) in Muzzin in the second game against the Jackets hurt like hell.

You do have a point in talking about team depth but it gets even more maddening it was the super cheap guys like Goodrow and Coleman that made a real difference in the finals for Tampa and now cashed in. It's not just about spending the money on depth, its getting big moments from them. You can setup the guys for success as much as you want but you still need the end results. It's why Matthews and Marner's 9 points while completely shutting down the Habs top guns looks pretty good when compared with the pitiful production at the bottom of the lineup combined with the Habs depth production doing well against them. If Thornton/Mikheyev/Simmonds 2 points combined in 7 games had been more like Perry/Staal/Armia's 12 points, I think things would look diffferently.

It seems we are moving in a direction towards driving the net hard with guys like Ritchie and Bunting which is probably a smart move seeing how Tampa's depth guys were scoring goals. Losing Hyman hurts but he only had a single point in the 7 games against the Habs. Need some frigging dice rolls in our direction too. The cap situation really was overblown until Covid made it real. Wouldnt it feel nicer with 10 million more to play with right now? Jeez.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lost our best playoff dman (in almost every way) in Muzzin in the second game against the Jackets hurt like hell.

You do have a point in talking about team depth but it gets even more maddening it was the super cheap guys like Goodrow and Coleman that made a real difference in the finals for Tampa and now cashed in. It's not just about spending the money on depth, its getting big moments from them. You can setup the guys for success as much as you want but you still need the end results. It's why Matthews and Marner's 9 points while completely shutting down the Habs top guns looks pretty good when compared with the pitiful production at the bottom of the lineup combined with the Habs depth production doing well against them. If Thornton/Mikheyev/Simmonds 2 points combined in 7 games had been more like Perry/Staal/Armia's 12 points, I think things would look diffferently.

It seems we are moving in a direction towards driving the net hard with guys like Ritchie and Bunting which is probably a smart move seeing how Tampa's depth guys were scoring goals. Losing Hyman hurts but he only had a single point in the 7 games against the Habs. Need some frigging dice rolls in our direction too. The cap situation really was overblown until Covid made it real. Wouldnt it feel nicer with 10 million more to play with right now? Jeez.

I don't think Covid has made quite a 10 million impact on the cap but there is no doubt that covid screwed us as even another 5 million would make a huge difference for us. And that's why I keep thinking that maybe we need to change course. If our original plan is screwed, don't we need a new plan? It feels like we are hoping against hope that we either have a miracle break through, or we just tough it out until the cap goes substantially up again but how many years will that take? And are M&M going to resign if we don't have success before that?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Both points are spot on, not even debatable if you're being honest.

Especially the part about common ground.

 

[zeke]

. It's why Matthews and Marner's 9 points while completely shutting down the Habs top guns looks pretty good when compared with the pitiful production at the bottom of the lineup combined with the Habs depth production doing well against them. If Thornton/Mikheyev/Simmonds 2 points combined in 7 games had been more like Perry/Staal/Armia's 12 points, I think things would look diffferently.

.

Matthews 1gls/5pts --- Suzuki 2gls/4pts
Marner 0gls/4pts ------- Toffoli 2gls/5pts
Hyman 1gls/1pts ------- Caufield 0gls/1pts

Tavares 0gls/0pts ------- Danault 0gls/1pts
Nylander 5gls/8pts ----- Gallagher 1gls/1pts
Foligno 0gls/1pts -------- Anderson 1gls/1pts

Kerfoot 1gls/6pts ---- Kotkaniemi 3gls/3pts
Galchenyuk 1gls/4pts -- Armia 2gls/4pts
Mikheyev 0gls/0pts ---- Tatar 0gls/1pts

Spezza 3gls/5pts ------- Staal 0gls/4pts
Thornton 1gls/1pts --- Perry 2gls/4pts
Simmonds 0gls/1pts -- Byron 1gls/2pts

Engvall 0gls/1pts ----- Evans 0gls/0pts
Nash 0gls/0pts --------- Lehkonen 0gls/0pts
Brooks 0gls/0pts

 

[Dekes For Days]

Weren't all our key guys healthy against CLB?

No, we lost Muzzin.

If you want more from the depth guys, then we need better depth guys and that means finding more cap space

Higher paid depth does not always equate to better depth, and better depth also does not always equate to better performances in every small sample. You also don't need more cap space if you have prospects developing into those depth roles. The problem is, Lou sucked at drafting, after emptying the pipeline, and that's not instantly fixed. That doesn't mean you trade away some of the best young superstars in the cap era while you fix it.

Re. Marner - I don't know why his production has dropped off in the playoffs for the last 3 seasons but like I said, being overworked sounds like a possibility. But like I also said, you think he's been awesome

I didn't say "he's been awesome". I've simply taken a more honest and detailed look at what's happened and why, rather than just concluding he's been playing like garbage, based on considering nothing but raw points in these samples. There are pretty obvious reasons for his drop in production in those samples, but you're choosing to ignore them in favour of something that there's zero evidence of, that doesn't even really make sense because he's played less than a regular season's worth of games the past couple years, and had substantial breaks between the regular season and playoffs.

Re. deciding games - did you watch the games? Do you think we played well?

Yes, I watched all of them. I wouldn't say they were all the best games of the series for us (or the other team), but they certainly weren't the disaster you're representing them as. The goaltending discrepancy is very obviously the biggest factor by far in those specific losses.

 

[Zybalto]

Matthews 1gls/5pts --- Suzuki 2gls/4pts
Marner 0gls/4pts ------- Toffoli 2gls/5pts
Hyman 1gls/1pts ------- Caufield 0gls/1pts

Tavares 0gls/0pts ------- Danault 0gls/1pts
Nylander 5gls/8pts ----- Gallagher 1gls/1pts
Foligno 0gls/1pts -------- Anderson 1gls/1pts

Kerfoot 1gls/6pts ---- Kotkaniemi 3gls/3pts
Galchenyuk 1gls/4pts -- Armia 2gls/4pts
Mikheyev 0gls/0pts ---- Tatar 0gls/1pts

Spezza 3gls/5pts ------- Staal 0gls/4pts
Thornton 1gls/1pts --- Perry 2gls/4pts
Simmonds 0gls/1pts -- Byron 1gls/2pts

Engvall 0gls/1pts ----- Evans 0gls/0pts
Nash 0gls/0pts --------- Lehkonen 0gls/0pts
Brooks 0gls/0pts

I like lining them up towards how often they played against each other (Its a bit tough though as Matthews/Marner shut down the Habs top line so bad it eventually had to be broken up but they still played the Danault line the whole time):

Matthews 1gls/5pts --- Danault 0gls/1pts
Marner 0gls/4pts ------- Gallagher 1gls/1pts
Hyman 1gls/1pts ------- Tatar 0gls/1pts (Evans 0gls/0pts) replaced Tatar after benching)

Tavares 0gls/0pts ------- Suzuki 2gls/4pts
Nylander 5gls/8pts ----- Toffoli 2gls/5pts
Foligno 0gls/1pts -------- Caufield 0gls/1pts

Kerfoot 1gls/6pts ---- Kotkaniemi 3gls/3pts
Galchenyuk 1gls/4pts -- Armia 2gls/4pts
Mikheyev 0gls/0pts ---- Byron 1gls/2pts

Spezza 3gls/5pts ------- Staal 0gls/4pts
Thornton 1gls/1pts --- Perry 2gls/4pts
Simmonds 0gls/1pts -- Anderson 1gls/1pts

Engvall 0gls/1pts ----- Evans 0gls/0pts
Nash 0gls/0pts --------- Lehkonen 0gls/0pts
Brooks 0gls/0pts --------

Just a quick revision but certainly a more accurate view of the matchups. (there were a ton of lineup shifting so I tried my best. Hope I didnt double name anyone in my haste.)

Cheers.

 

[Gary Nylund]

No, we lost Muzzin.

Higher paid depth does not always equate to better depth, and better depth also does not always equate to better performances in every small sample. You also don't need more cap space if you have prospects developing into those depth roles. The problem is, Lou sucked at drafting, after emptying the pipeline, and that's not instantly fixed. That doesn't mean you trade away some of the best young superstars in the cap era while you fix it.

I didn't say "he's been awesome". I've simply taken a more honest and detailed look at what's happened and why, rather than just concluding he's been playing like garbage, based on considering nothing but raw points in these samples. There are pretty obvious reasons for his drop in production in those samples, but you're choosing to ignore them in favour of something that there's zero evidence of, that doesn't even really make sense because he's played less than a regular season's worth of games the past couple years, and had substantial breaks between the regular season and playoffs.

Yes, I watched all of them. I wouldn't say they were all the best games of the series for us (or the other team), but they certainly weren't the disaster you're representing them as. The goaltending discrepancy is very obviously the biggest factor by far in those specific losses.

You say you're being "more honest" and claim I've said Marner's been playing like garbage all in the same sentence. But I never said that so you're not being honest at all.

Re. the bolded, yeah sure LOL, I think we can all agree those weren't our best games but that's kind of like saying that Thornton isn't the fastest player in the league - it doesn't add anything to the conversation. Can you any more specific? On a scale of 1-10, how would you rate our play in those 4 games. I'll start if you like, I'd say our grade would be 3-4 something like that.

 

[Mugzy97]

What you are missing is Dvorak, Suzuki and Tkachuk are all much faster straight line skaters and much stronger than Mitch .. Mitch has more edge work and creativity than all 3 combined yes he does but when hockey games get tight (ie games get faster and time and space on puck is significantly reduced) than power and strength prevail in tight spaces .. it is main reason why Mitch has trouble in playoff hockey when he has to play on top 2 lines and why you see him pass on many loose pucks

SO we're on da topic of junior hockey and you're saying Marner had trouble in playoff hockey? You are da one missing something.

 

[Gabriel426]

Hey, I just thought this was an almost perfect way to look at winning in the playoffs seeing as the top 3 big scorers on the cup winning champs had roughly the same points as the Leafs big 3 did in a sample of their last 12 playoff games played, a sample that was almost half against the same team from the same playoffs! I thought that maybe that would open some eyes but I never expected the "play differently in different rounds" fallacy......like Vegas would have actually beat Montreal if they met in the first round instead of the third under the exact same conditions.....I mean, what could be more brilliant than that!?.....and you then start to cherry pick stats to try and make an argument. I'm more interested to see why team win and hope the changes are made to make the Leafs a winner. You seem more interested in tearing down two of the guys that actually played well.....even though they didnt get the end production the numbers suggested they should be getting they still played well.

I think all teams are trying at all times to win in the playoffs. There are even cases when the two best teams can meet in the 2nd round or a president trophy winner finds itself up against their bane in the first round and was just unlucky to draw them and would have won the cup otherwise. I love the playoffs because its so unpredictable.

Tampa won the final two rounds on their depth scoring and goaltending being better than the other side which is what you need to come through in the playoffs. When your top end scorers are not completely dominating, you at least need competence from your depth guys.....I mean, the Leafs big players didnt even get a chance to have that big moment as depth players literally threw games away, Gally a minute into overtime, Dermott in overtime with the Leafs outshooting the Habs 12-1 and Sandin (hes a rookie so he gets a pass but jeez). So not only do you have depth players that greatly underperformed their regular season points totals, they were also wore the goat horns gave the deciding games away....but its all Marners and Matthews fault somehow?

Toronto had the awful combo of being the team most savaged by injury + underperforming depth (injuries playing its part here too as the depth players that stepped up into 2nd line roles performed well more or less but the others...sheesh) + running into the surprise goalie of the playoffs. (again in the first round and thats 5 years in a row Leafs goaltending<oppostion goaltending)

Toronto is shuffling the deck chairs down there again in hopes of, not a crazy run by depth players to carry the team but even an average production showing from them....cause if they had that, statistically speaking, the Leafs would have won both series against the Jackets and Habs(another 20 points from those guys would have been nice no?). The focus on Matthews/Marner is a sideshow IMO. Actually, The Leafs are a really talented team that is well-coached so I think just being healthy for a round will put them through the first round next playoffs.....how about that? Lets just go one round without a key guy going down (a luxury 90% of other teams enjoy).

Anyways, I think you obviously want the same goal of a Leafs winner in the playoffs but I'm not trying to spin or be a "stan" or "hater" in any way here. I can only say the Leafs top players are waaaaay down the list of problems of what went wrong, at least thats what almost every stat is screaming out to me. Most people do get dug in on positions in every aspect of life so I try to avoid that and, hey, I'm open to change my mind. We all want the team to win.

Cheers,

Go Leafs Go!

Appreciated you wrote such a long post. Just have to agree to disagree bc quite frankly, AM and MM didn’t show up to play the last two playoffs nomatter how you want to interpret it.
If you think they are doing well and good enough to help Leafs win the Cup with the way they are playing, good on you.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You say you're being "more honest" and claim I've said Marner's been playing like garbage all in the same sentence. But I never said that

I didn't say you specifically said he's been playing like garbage (you however actually did make a false claim about what I said), but that has been the general sentiment around here, and you have certainly made some... overly critical statements about Marner throughout this summer, to put it nicely. Including stating that he sucked in the playoffs, multiple times.

Can you any more specific?

Over the past 4 series deciding games, we have had a 51.4% xGF% outside of empty net situations. Which is probably more evenly contested than we would hope for, but we didn't "suck" and we weren't "listless". The main discrepancy between us and the other team in those series-deciding games has undeniably been the play of the respective goaltenders (0.950 vs. 0.879).

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I didn't say you specifically said he's been playing like garbage (you however actually did make a false claim about what I said), but that has been the general sentiment around here, and you have certainly made some... overly critical statements about Marner throughout this summer, to put it nicely. Including stating that he sucked in the playoffs, multiple times.

Over the past 4 series deciding games, we have had a 51.4% xGF% outside of empty net situations. Which is probably more evenly contested than we would hope for, but we didn't "suck" and we weren't "listless". The main discrepancy between us and the other team in those series-deciding games has undeniably been the play of the respective goaltenders (0.950 vs. 0.879).

Do you think the goaltenders save percentage is purely a function of their individual play or is it also dependent on the shooters on the opposite team or the defensive play of the players infront of the goalie etc?

It is no coincidence that the leafs always run into 'hot' goalies in the playoffs, happened too many times. It has to be partly attributed to a lack of killer instinct and generally shitty finishing by the forwards.