Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[egd27]

Not any of the player's faults of course, but absolutely Lou's fault. He's the one that signed the horrible contract; the consequences of that horrible contract are on him. I always find it amusing when people advocate for the alternative of making the team worse so that we could carry a 6.25m liability on the ice. Which would of course also be blamed on Dubas. What a great no-win situation that was left by Lou.

You are incorrect.....the necessity of dumping Marleau was due to the decisions made by Dubas.

I am not advocating making the team worse, nor am I suggesting it was the wrong decision by Dubas. However, it was his signings and cap management that necessitated it.

 

[Martin Skoula]

No question you do not sign an aging forward to that deal although I would not call Marleau a grinder. Very dumb on Lou and most knew it as soon as it was announced. You might be right about the other stuff regarding buy-out and bonus. Not 100% sure something else could not have been done to not have to include our first. I guess only the Canes can answer that.

Dubas has literally 2 options the second Marleau demands a trade to only San Jose or someone who can buy him out:

1) Trade Kapanen and Johnsson (plus probably another small piece around ~1.5 mil) and replace them with Marleau + league minimum player. In a prime contending year (without the benefit of hindsight that was the best team we had on paper in 20 years), the GM decides to play with 6.25 in dead cap being wasted on a disgruntled senior citizen who doesn't even want to be in Toronto.

2) Pay whatever the lowest available price is to dump 6.25 cap + 3 mil cash on someone for a year with the GM you're negotiating against knowing that you can't sign Marner until you make this deal. If you wait too long into September/October, you wouldn't be able to sign Marner because of some bonus issues if I recall correctly.

Maybe the Canes would have taken a prospect instead of the 1st, but I would imagine they would want Sandin or Liljegren and I'd rather have them over a 1st expected to be in the 20s before COVID hit.

There really is no option except for the paying the 1st unless you're wiling to eat 6.25 for a year and bunt on what was at the time our best shot at a cup in 20 years. The obvious solution that works out for everyone is Marleau not choosing to be a piece of shit and taking the trade to LAK/COL/ANA that were rumored to be on the table and would get him closer to home. Not like being in San Jose was that critical, he was ok with moving to Pittsburgh less than a year later. You'd think you'd be a little bit grateful to the organization that overpaid you by 4 mil a year.

The kicker for me is that he did all of this for his ironman streak and not even a cup lol.

 

[Zybalto]

Ya lost me right there.

I'll just use points to make things simpler then.

Points for Matthews/Marner/Nylander in playoff elimination games the last 2 years: 14
Points for the entire rest of the team including the D: 14

3 players shouldnt be scoring 50% of the points in clutch games. Even on the Oilers this year, the top 3 players didnt get 50% of the points (and certainly didnt somehow take the irrational abuse our guys take)

The guys that actually look the good in all this are actually Keefe(run of play was so one-sided and score was due to player failure)/Marner/Matthews/Nylander/Tavares(shows how much he is needed)/Kerfoot/top 4 D, especially Muzzin/Spezza. Considering theses are our most important players, its a good thing.

The bad are mostly out other than Malhotra. God that PP was awful this year.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Put down the bottle man.
Marner was not greedy.

Whats that you said?

 

[ToneDog]

Whats that you said?

Point, Ranta, Aho all making 1.5m less than Marner. Throw in bonus money and thank God Marner was not greedy. Dubas was very generous.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You are incorrect.....the necessity of dumping Marleau was due to the decisions made by Dubas.

You are incorrect. Marleau had to be traded because he was a bad player on a horrible 6.25m contract. "Just be worse to fit it in" is not a valid option. Lou gave out that contract. Lou is to blame for the consequences of that contract.

 

[egd27]

You are incorrect. Marleau had to be traded because he was a bad player on a horrible 6.25m contract. "Just be worse to fit it in" is not a valid option. Lou gave out that contract. Lou is to blame for the consequences of that contract.

Lou is to blame for giving out the contract, Dubas' decisions are responsible for the necessity of needing to dispose it early.

You know it, but are unable to admit it for some bizarre reason.

 

[Mugzy97]

Nonsense.

Signing 4 players to $40M in cap forced the Leafs to need to dump Marleau after 2 years. Yes, it was a bad contract, but without those 4 signings they could have just let it play out.

Not Marners fault, not Matthews fault, not Nylander's fault, not Tavares' fault, not Lou's fault.

It stemmed from a series of decisions made by Kyle Dubas.

Nah, Dubas did the best he could with what he was given. The Marleau signing was something he inherited and he had to move it.

 

[egd27]

Nah, Dubas did the best he could with what he was given. The Marleau signing was something he inherited and he had to move it.

Once he had signed Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner, Kapanen and Johnsson to their contracts....yes, he had to move Marleau.

 

[Mugzy97]

Once he had signed Tavares, Nylander, Matthews, Marner, Kapanen and Johnsson to their contracts....yes, he had to move Marleau.

Do you suggest not signing your good players?

 

[Stonehands1990]

Dubas has literally 2 options the second Marleau demands a trade to only San Jose or someone who can buy him out:

1) Trade Kapanen and Johnsson (plus probably another small piece around ~1.5 mil) and replace them with Marleau + league minimum player. In a prime contending year (without the benefit of hindsight that was the best team we had on paper in 20 years), the GM decides to play with 6.25 in dead cap being wasted on a disgruntled senior citizen who doesn't even want to be in Toronto.

2) Pay whatever the lowest available price is to dump 6.25 cap + 3 mil cash on someone for a year with the GM you're negotiating against knowing that you can't sign Marner until you make this deal. If you wait too long into September/October, you wouldn't be able to sign Marner because of some bonus issues if I recall correctly.

Maybe the Canes would have taken a prospect instead of the 1st, but I would imagine they would want Sandin or Liljegren and I'd rather have them over a 1st expected to be in the 20s before COVID hit.

There really is no option except for the paying the 1st unless you're wiling to eat 6.25 for a year and bunt on what was at the time our best shot at a cup in 20 years. The obvious solution that works out for everyone is Marleau not choosing to be a piece of shit and taking the trade to LAK/COL/ANA that were rumored to be on the table and would get him closer to home. Not like being in San Jose was that critical, he was ok with moving to Pittsburgh less than a year later. You'd think you'd be a little bit grateful to the organization that overpaid you by 4 mil a year.

The kicker for me is that he did all of this for his ironman streak and not even a cup lol.

I mean Tampa bridged Point. Seems to be working out fine

 

[Stonehands1990]

Do you suggest not signing your good players?

I mean I’d rather Kadri and 6.5 million as 2C

 

[egd27]

Do you suggest not signing your good players?

Nope, not at all.

I'm just pointing out that Marleau had to go due to the player/contract decisions that Dubas made.

If, for example, Tavares wasn't signed, then the Leafs could have ridden out the last year of Marleau's contract......that's it.

 

[Mugzy97]

I mean I’d rather Kadri and 6.5 million as 2C

I’m confused with what you mean ?

 

[Mugzy97]

Nope, not at all.

I'm just pointing out that Marleau had to go due to the player/contract decisions that Dubas made.

If, for example, Tavares wasn't signed, then the Leafs could have ridden out the last year of Marleau's contract......that's it.

So you’d rather not sign Tavares so we could hang on to Jarvis and be a worse team. Got it.

 

[egd27]

So you’d rather not sign Tavares so we could hang on to Jarvis and be a worse team. Got it.

Good lord......can you at least spend 3 seconds thinking about what was written before responding with a ridiculous reply.

That's not what I said at all.

 

[Mugzy97]

Good lord......can you at least spend 3 seconds thinking about what was written before responding with a ridiculous reply.

That's not what I said at all.

I did. You’re blaming Dubas for losing a 1st round pick to trade away Marleau and suggesting he shouldn’t have signed Tavares (or any of those other guys) so he could save that pick by grinding through another year of Marleau.

 

[egd27]

I did. You’re blaming Dubas for losing a 1st round pick to trade away Marleau and suggesting he shouldn’t have signed Tavares (or any of those other guys) so he could save that pick by grinding through another year of Marleau.

I didn't suggest that at all.

If your reading comprehension is that poor, we are going to have to end it here.

Have a good evening.

 

[Mugzy97]

I didn't suggest that at all.

If your reading comprehension is that poor, we are going to have to end it here.

Have a good evening.

I’m reading this as you lost the argument and have now realized how dumb it was to blame Dubas on this one so you’re ending the conversation to save more embarrassment. Later!

 

[egd27]

I’m reading this as you lost the argument and have now realized how dumb it was to blame Dubas on this one so you’re ending the conversation to save more embarrassment. Later!

Of course you are

Tell me how you read the bolded in post #1026.

You are incorrect.....the necessity of dumping Marleau was due to the decisions made by Dubas.

I am not advocating making the team worse, nor am I suggesting it was the wrong decision by Dubas. However, it was his signings and cap management that necessitated it.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lou is to blame for giving out the contract, Dubas' decisions are responsible for the necessity of needing to dispose it early.

Lou is responsible for the contract, and thus is responsible for the consequences of the contract.

 

[kb]

I’m reading this as you lost the argument and have now realized how dumb it was to blame Dubas on this one so you’re ending the conversation to save more embarrassment. Later!

Weird, like every single time......

Realistically, Mitch dug his own hole here, but he can also be the author of his greatest victory. It's in his court.

 

[kb]

Lou is responsible for the contract, and thus is responsible for the consequences of the contract.

It would seem obvious....wouldn't it? Unless.....agenda.

If Lou gets Nylander signed early, then the asking prices of all go down. But nope.....fail.

 

[Racer88]

Lou is responsible for the contract, and thus is responsible for the consequences of the contract.

Dubas is responsible for the Foligno trade and is responsible for the consequences. No first round pick and basically no contribution to success from Foligno……….. is this correct

 

[Dekes For Days]

Dubas is responsible for the Foligno trade and is responsible for the consequences.

Dubas is responsible for the Foligno trade and the use of the 1st round pick, though obviously he's not responsible for Foligno getting injured.