Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[ZEBROA]

I believe Keefe attempted that for 2-3 games, it wasn't good.

Damn i missed that. He need to try it again

 

[supermann_98]

Mitch seems pumped for the season. Was sure to get that Red Bull branding in there though.



Seriously though I hope he and everyone else have a great season and hopefully post-season. As bad as he's been in the playoffs I've run out of anger. Get it done in the playoffs or don't.

I'm kind of in the same mind psychologically. As much as I dislike the greedy kid I'm not going to flame him and disrespect him on Twitter or Instagram. I do legit hope he has a big year and shuts me up for the sake of the team, but saying that he could score 150 points and it wouldn't matter one bit if he folds up like a cheap tent again come playoff time.

Blank slate Mitch ... perform in the playoffs or you and your GM buddy are gone.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Damn i missed that. He need to try it again

It really didn't generate anything, a lot of skill but didn't really forecheck or do well at getting the puck well. Overpassed a lot too...it wasn't too long after Keefe took over.

 

[supermann_98]

The hatred is honestly exhausting at this point. How in million years does an uber talented hometown kid end up being this hated by the fanbase Leaf land is such a terrible place sometimes.

1. Greed
2. Threatened signing offer sheets elsewhere, holding his cap-strapped team hostage for more money
3. Arrogance in thinking he's equal to a 6'3, 220 lbs #1 overall drafted center who scored 40 goals as a 19 year old
4. 0 goals in his last 18 playoff games
5. 2 lazy and stupid over the glass penalties against the Habs in the most important games of the year

Some may say "that was his agent" or "that was his dad", but make no mistake they spoke for him so he wouldn't seem to be the bad guy and instead it blew up in his face.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

It really didn't generate anything, a lot of skill but didn't really forecheck or do well at getting the puck well. Overpassed a lot too...it wasn't too long after Keefe took over.

It's weird, he tried it for a couple of games in his first season and it looked terrible, but he also tried it a couple of times last year and I thought it looked really good in limited action. It's something I would honestly be willing to see given a proper 5 game stretch, I know that the possession metrics with those three together are absolutely dominant although they never found the back of the net.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not that Nylander-Matthews-Marner is necessarily the right choice, but for the record, they've played just 49 minutes together in the past 3 years, and they heavily tilted the ice in that time, so I'm not sure why some are writing it off.

 

[WTFMAN99]

It's weird, he tried it for a couple of games in his first season and it looked terrible, but he also tried it a couple of times last year and I thought it looked really good in limited action. It's something I would honestly be willing to see given a proper 5 game stretch, I know that the possession metrics with those three together are absolutely dominant although they never found the back of the net.

Not that Nylander-Matthews-Marner is necessarily the right choice, but for the record, they've played just 49 minutes together in the past 3 years, and they heavily tilted the ice in that time, so I'm not sure why some are writing it off.

Likely run into the same problem that we did vs CBJ, shut down 1 line and you're probably beating Toronto.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Likely run into the same problem that we did vs CBJ, shut down 1 line and you're probably beating Toronto.

There are valid concerns around how it would affect other lines, and I probably wouldn't make it a regular thing for that reason, but the problem isn't that that line combination doesn't work.

 

[Fogelhund]

Not that Nylander-Matthews-Marner is necessarily the right choice, but for the record, they've played just 49 minutes together in the past 3 years, and they heavily tilted the ice in that time, so I'm not sure why some are writing it off.

The question being, when were those three on the ice together? Last couple of minutes of a game, trying to tie it up? Regular shifts? I really don't know, just asking.

If it's last few minutes of a game trying to tie things up, often that tilts the ice, as one team plays prevent, and the goes on attack.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

The question being, when were those three on the ice together? Last couple of minutes of a game, trying to tie it up? Regular shifts? I really don't know, just asking.

If it's last few minutes of a game trying to tie things up, often that tilts the ice, as one team plays prevent, and the goes on attack.

They played two full games in 2019-20, and then in 2021 they were used occasionally (usually in games we were losing and looking for a spark) and never started a game

 

[Dekes For Days]

The question being, when were those three on the ice together? Last couple of minutes of a game, trying to tie it up? Regular shifts? I really don't know, just asking.

I was just looking at 5v5, so it wouldn't include things like goalie pulled situations at the end of a game. They did have some rare regular shifts together.

 

[HockeyVirus]

So the Bruins got away with 1 amazing line and an ok 2nd line forever. Why can't we? Is

Marchand - Bergeron - Pasta

REALLY that much better than

Nylander - Matthews - Marner?

I'd argue overall the lines are pretty close.

Ritchie - Krejci - Smith

vs

Ritchie - Tavares - Kase / Kerfoot / Soup

Again, not a dissimilar top 6. I'd argue that line is better than theirs.

Now, they likely had a better bottom 6 than us, but that has also been a problem for them as they have had many castoffs come and go there. Our D allowed less than 1 extra shot a game than theirs last season. A few goals against differences, but they had Rask and Halak we had Anderson (injured for a lot of the year) and Campbell missed long stretches of time that saw Hutch play.

All in all, the strategy at least isn't crazy. Now, they were also out in round 2 the past few years, but did make the final the year before that. So the question is, have our players matured enough to make it work?

 

[Gary Nylund]

So the Bruins got away with 1 amazing line and an ok 2nd line forever. Why can't we? Is
Marchand - Bergeron - Pasta
REALLY that much better than
Nylander - Matthews - Marner?
I'd argue overall the lines are pretty close.

Ritchie - Krejci - Smith

vs

Ritchie - Tavares - Kase / Kerfoot / Soup

Again, not a dissimilar top 6. I'd argue that line is better than theirs.

Now, they likely had a better bottom 6 than us, but that has also been a problem for them as they have had many castoffs come and go there. Our D allowed less than 1 extra shot a game than theirs last season. A few goals against differences, but they had Rask and Halak we had Anderson (injured for a lot of the year) and Campbell missed long stretches of time that saw Hutch play.

All in all, the strategy at least isn't crazy. Now, they were also out in round 2 the past few years, but did make the final the year before that. So the question is, have our players matured enough to make it work?

Close on paper. In real life, one line is called the perfection line for a reason while the other is nothing more then potential. Unfortunately, lots of things look good on paper but don't pan out in real life the way some would hope. We seem to have mastered the art of being less than the sum of our parts on the ice than we are on paper so I wouldn't count on this line breaking that trend.

 

[Stephen]

Not that Nylander-Matthews-Marner is necessarily the right choice, but for the record, they've played just 49 minutes together in the past 3 years, and they heavily tilted the ice in that time, so I'm not sure why some are writing it off.

Rolling out $29 million in forward talent for about 1/3 of the game only to have $27 million in forward talent the rest of the time would probably explain why stacking a super line would not make sense except in very special circumstances.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Rolling out $29 million in forward talent for about 1/3 of the game only to have $27 million in forward talent the rest of the time would probably explain why stacking a super line would not make sense except in very special circumstances.

What they're paid isn't really relevant. It really just comes down to whether the increase to the first line would be worth the decrease to the 2nd line.

 

[Stephen]

What they're paid isn't really relevant. It really just comes down to whether the increase to the first line would be worth the decrease to the 2nd line.

Only way I could see that happening is if a couple of our rookies can break through and add so much depth we can have a pack mentality bottom 3 lines after the Big Line. Right now the drop off after Tavares just seems like too much to overload it.

I would put Marner and Nylander together though on their own line and let Matthews and Tavares fend for themselves as an experiment.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Only way I could see that happening is if a couple of our rookies can break through and add so much depth we can have a pack mentality bottom 3 lines after the Big Line. Right now the drop off after Tavares just seems like too much to overload it.

I probably wouldn't do it regularly because it would probably hurt our 2nd line more than it would help the 1st line, but it's certainly a great line in specific situations. We'd probably need somebody like Robertson to take a big step to do it regularly this year.

 

[TheGreatOne11]

1. Greed
2. Threatened signing offer sheets elsewhere, holding his cap-strapped team hostage for more money
3. Arrogance in thinking he's equal to a 6'3, 220 lbs #1 overall drafted center who scored 40 goals as a 19 year old
4. 0 goals in his last 18 playoff games
5. 2 lazy and stupid over the glass penalties against the Habs in the most important games of the year

Some may say "that was his agent" or "that was his dad", but make no mistake they spoke for him so he wouldn't seem to be the bad guy and instead it blew up in his face.

My favourite Leaf when he broke in here for us, heart and soul type in a little body.

This is not only our year, but his. If vintage Marner doesn't show up in the playoffs. That is it for him.

We all know what he is capable of, if he just brings that into the post season, all will be forgotten.

With a goose egg and no heart, below point per game, his story is already written.

Here is hoping the man i bought my first leaf jersey for as a poor man, let's me wear it in pride again.

Lets go Mitch. My boy.

I have not given up yet. You broke my heart yet here i am.

Show me people can change and change back.

 

[Trapper]

Close on paper. In real life, one line is called the perfection line for a reason while the other is nothing more then potential. Unfortunately, lots of things look good on paper but don't pan out in real life the way some would hope. We seem to have mastered the art of being less than the sum of our parts on the ice than we are on paper so I wouldn't count on this line breaking that trend.

Real life is the key in your post.
Nobody wins the cup without something aching, fractured, torn, bruised, bumped, etc.
Who is doing that? Oh no, poor Marner had to play 22 minutes.

You also don’t win without changing your game. Are you going to bump? Forecheck? Take a cross check or 10?

There are no stats for real world and this core hasn’t show they are willing to do it. Killer instinct is intensity and will. Not an all star game.

 

[tmlfan98]

Nah Mitch isn't getting a blank slate from me...we know what's happening again come April. His 11M for more pucks over the glass than goals type mentality has infected the team. He should have been gone in the 2020 offseason.

 

[Sypher04]

There’s not a ton to say for me. To put it simply:

I loved Mitch Marner during his ELC years. Don’t love the contract or how it was negotiated, but ultimately changes nothing, still love the player. Yes, I was disappointed with his playoffs, but he’s not the only guy who that applies, and like the others, I don’t feel it does or should define him. He’s still an exceptional talent, young and improving, and one of the very best players in the NHL. We are still lucky to have him

 

[ACC1224]

There’s not a ton to say for me. To put it simply:

I loved Mitch Marner during his ELC years. Don’t love the contract or how it was negotiated, but ultimately changes nothing, still love the player. Yes, I was disappointed with his playoffs, but he’s not the only guy who that applies, and like the others, I don’t feel it does or should define him. He’s still an exceptional talent, young and improving, and one of the very best players in the NHL. We are still lucky to have him

A mature, rational post is a rarity around here.

 

[Gary Nylund]

There’s not a ton to say for me. To put it simply:

I loved Mitch Marner during his ELC years. Don’t love the contract or how it was negotiated, but ultimately changes nothing, still love the player. Yes, I was disappointed with his playoffs, but he’s not the only guy who that applies, and like the others, I don’t feel it does or should define him. He’s still an exceptional talent, young and improving, and one of the very best players in the NHL. We are still lucky to have him

Yeah I feel the same way. I like the idea of seeing what we could get in a trade just because our forward group is so top heavy and team success is the thing for me. But I would love it if Marner turned it around and we won the cup with him playing a big role. I'm hoping diceman is right and too much ice time is the problem with him as it can be easily fixed. I'm not convinced, but at least it's something to hope for. I'll be keeping a close eye on his ice time for sure and hoping it goes down.

I remember Dekes saying that Marner's PPG is so good, that's why he deserved the contract and no reason to think that he couldn't keep up the production with increased minutes (even though I showed him some hard data indicating the opposite). Last season it looked liked Dekes might be on to something as Marner was killing it all season long. But then again, it was a short season so not clear if he could keep it up over a full season and of course in the playoffs, the bottom fell out so at this point in time, I think even Dekes might admit that the idea that PP/60 is what matters irrespective of minutes played is flawed so say the least.

Two things I'll be watching closely when the season starts are ice time allocation (especially Marner) and how our goaltenders are doing. And if Keefe plays the crap out of Marner and he looks burnt out in the playoffs again, I won't be happy.

 

[flying v 604]

Gary. Leaf fans generally on this board lack ability to see a player for what he is. Leo, Brown, Martin etc all where worthless according to our board. I said they were wrong and they still are. Marner is one of the leagues top players and idiots on here want him gone. The man was exhausted playing shifts too close together and far to many minutes needlessly. It is textbook coaching 101. Do not overplay your top players to exhaustion. Look at Ovi minutes and Crosby to see why one had won 3 cups and the other one with a great coach.

As a non leaf fan I find the hate MM gets pretty nuts.
He is for sure overpaid but haven't Tavares and AM had their best seasons with him on their wing?

From the outside perspective JT seems to be the contract that is the most destructive, a 2c shouldn't make 11 million and I get that production wise hes a 1c but having a solid 2way guy at say 5-8 million like a Horvat is not only cheaper but can play more of a shutdown role while still putting up 60+ points.
How many wingers have put up 90+ points while being trusted enough to kill penalties?

 

[Racer88]

As a non leaf fan I find the hate MM gets pretty nuts.
He is for sure overpaid but haven't Tavares and AM had their best seasons with him on their wing?

From the outside perspective JT seems to be the contract that is the most destructive, a 2c shouldn't make 11 million and I get that production wise hes a 1c but having a solid 2way guy at say 5-8 million like a Horvat is not only cheaper but can play more of a shutdown role while still putting up 60+ points.
How many wingers have put up 90+ points while being trusted enough to kill penalties?

You nailed it. 11 million spent on Tavares started this whole imbalance mess