Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Gabriel426]

Despite basketball being much different in that stars have WAY more impact on team performance, Jordan needed Pippen and Grant to emerge to get that elusive first crown and then the additions of key depth players like Kukoc, Kerr, Paxson, Rodman, etc. kept the ball rolling.

Much like Tampa after the year they got swept, the Leafs are looking for solid depth contributors instead of carrying so much dead weight. It's like a pointed out a couple of posts ago in a different thread. Matthews/Marner/Nylander have 31 points in their last 12 playoff games and Point/Kucherov/Stamkos have 30 points in their last 12 cup winning games. Why did the latter group of players win the cup?

Did a little math on Marner underlying numbers from the playoffs as well and where he ranks among RW from the playoffs over the last two years.

5v5, the top right wingers ranking the last two playoffs (200 minutes+, 28 RW total):

Shot differential:

1. Tuch
2. Kucherov
3. Voracek
4. Svechnikov
5. Marner

Scoring chance differential:

1. Rantanen
2. Kucherov
3. Pastrnak
4. Marner
5. Kucherov

High Danger scoring chance differential:

1. Marner
2. Tuch
3. Kucherov
4. Voracek
5. Gallagher

Expected Goals%:

1. Marner
2. Tuch
3. Kucherov
4. Voracek
5. Smith

I continue to maintain that the current outrage against either Matthews or Marner is badly misplaced.

They didn’t get the job done for a few years in a row. Plus they were no shows in elimination games(baring 6mins in Game 4 against BJs).
They are not bad players but they need to figure out how to win in playoffs.
MJ and the Bulls knew they need to be physically and mentally tougher to get past Pistons and they did.

The Leafs need to know and understand they need to start on time and not a few goals down in any playoffs and esp elimination games, need to be more physical, need to engage and fight for every inch of the Ice, guys like AM, MM, Willie and JT need to lead on the scoreboard.

 

[Zybalto]

They didn’t get the job done for a few years in a row. Plus they were no shows in elimination games(baring 6mins in Game 4 against BJs).
They are not bad players but they need to figure out how to win in playoffs.
MJ and the Bulls knew they need to be physically and mentally tougher to get past Pistons and they did.

The Leafs need to know and understand they need to start on time and not a few goals down in any playoffs and esp elimination games, need to be more physical, need to engage and fight for every inch of the Ice, guys like AM, MM, Willie and JT need to lead on the scoreboard.

The problem here is that there isnt goaltending in basketball.....er...wait.....you know what I mean.

If your goalkeeper lets in a bad goal (as has happened repeatedly on our team but never against us in deciding games), thats not on our stars. If Jordan has to go there with wrist that needs surgery, Kukoc goes down in the first quarter of game 1 and then he loses Grant in game 6 of a close series, he might not win the series, no matter how hard he plays and the opposite basket isnt going to go on a heater to stop him.

The "figure out how to win in the playoffs" thing doesnt quite work in such a team oriented game.....if it did, McDavid and Crosby, etc. wouldnt have been in the same place as our stars.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

They didn’t get the job done for a few years in a row. Plus they were no shows in elimination games(baring 6mins in Game 4 against BJs).
They are not bad players but they need to figure out how to win in playoffs.
MJ and the Bulls knew they need to be physically and mentally tougher to get past Pistons and they did.

The Leafs need to know and understand they need to start on time and not a few goals down in any playoffs and esp elimination games, need to be more physical, need to engage and fight for every inch of the Ice, guys like AM, MM, Willie and JT need to lead on the scoreboard.

Marner and Matthews have succeeded in neutralizing each others potential and should not be on the the same line. Marner fits better with JT and willy fits better with Matthews in getting a more mobile game from Matthews. The extent that matthews game has lost mobility and heavy play matched up with Marner is significant. Watching him float around to soft ice waiting for the pass from Marner is disappointing. Matthews has some of the best hands and power game in the league taking pucks off the wall until Keefe matches them up as a set combo. It’s brought some stagnation to matthews game and most definitely taken him out of the grind game he was so good at earlier in his career.
Tavares’s work rate down low and at the net is much heavier than the game Matthews has fallen in to. Tavares causes havoc down low and confusion to a degree Matthews doesn’t come close to. Add the vision Tavares has to go along with his scoring and rhe ability to find Marner in that confusion just adds time to Marners game that makes him more dangerous in that slot and scoring area. Marner is way to far out on the perimeter looking for set ups and inexplicably playing outside his strong area where he can score.
Everyone says Marner has a poor shot but really he has been shooting strong in the right area between the two faceoff dots and top of the circle. He’s really deadly in that box but plays predominately outside it playing with Matthews.
Getting Matthews back in the game and in the paint and more involved would be ideal.Matthews game is passive all season and he doesn’t know how to pick it up physically cone playoffs. Defense’ simply key in on him and take his ice away and he didn’t figure it out that he needs to go jam the net when they do that to him. Matthews net presence needs to improve in a big way to throw off teams that simply shadow him and block him out positionally.
He can’t pkay passively the entire season and expect his game to adapt without enough practice doing it all regular season.
So thats what I perceive a problem with Marner and Matthews that was consistently there all last year.

 

[Gabriel426]

The problem here is that there isnt goaltending in basketball.....er...wait.....you know what I mean.

If your goalkeeper lets in a bad goal (as has happened repeatedly on our team but never against us in deciding games), thats not on our stars. If Jordan has to go there with wrist that needs surgery, Kukoc goes down in the first quarter of game 1 and then he loses Grant in game 6 of a close series, he might not win the series, no matter how hard he plays and the opposite basket isnt going to go on a heater to stop him.

The "figure out how to win in the playoffs" thing doesnt quite work in such a team oriented game.....if it did, McDavid and Crosby, etc. wouldnt have been in the same place as our stars.

They won three games without JT, they didn’t just realized JT wasn’t playing with them in Gam5.
No doubt Hockey is a more team oriented sports than Basketball but your best players need to be your best players.
I am not even talking about being the best players in the series but the best players on their own teams.
Since there is only ONE Cup winner, there will always be SuperStars who didn’t lead their team to Cup Wins but most of them often being the best players for their teams despite losing the series. Can’t say AM and MM as our best players over the past two seasons.
We always talk about players having that extra gear in playoffs, it seems like for AM and MM, that’s extra gear is reverse bc they are producing way below their season average plus making rookie mistakes.
I agree that some comments made by fans are way overboard but at the same time, they deserve to be criticized due to their poor plays.

 

[Gabriel426]

Marner and Matthews have succeeded in neutralizing each others potential and should not be on the the same line. Marner fits better with JT and willy fits better with Matthews in getting a more mobile game from Matthews. The extent that matthews game has lost mobility and heavy play matched up with Marner is significant. Watching him float around to soft ice waiting for the pass from Marner is disappointing. Matthews has some of the best hands and power game in the league taking pucks off the wall until Keefe matches them up as a set combo. It’s brought some stagnation to matthews game and most definitely taken him out of the grind game he was so good at earlier in his career.
Tavares’s work rate down low and at the net is much heavier than the game Matthews has fallen in to. Tavares causes havoc down low and confusion to a degree Matthews doesn’t come close to. Add the vision Tavares has to go along with his scoring and rhe ability to find Marner in that confusion just adds time to Marners game that makes him more dangerous in that slot and scoring area. Marner is way to far out on the perimeter looking for set ups and inexplicably playing outside his strong area where he can score.
Everyone says Marner has a poor shot but really he has been shooting strong in the right area between the two faceoff dots and top of the circle. He’s really deadly in that box but plays predominately outside it playing with Matthews.
Getting Matthews back in the game and in the paint and more involved. Matthews game is passive all season and he doesn’t know how to pick it up physically cone playoffs. Defense’ simply key in on him and take his ice away and he didn’t figure it out that he needs to go jam the net when they do that to him. Matthews net presence needs to improve in a big way to throw off teams that simply shadow him and block him out positionally.
He can’t pkay passively the entire season and expect his game to adapt with enough practice doing it all regular season.
So thats what I perceive a problem with Marner and Matthews that was consistently there all last year.

I agree with you esp the AM part where he floats in game waiting for the puck.
Personally, I would actually play JT-AM-Ritchie on a line and see how that goes.
Stick Bunting with Kerfoot and Willie.
Then have Soup-Spezza-Marner on another line.

 

[Zybalto]

They won three games without JT, they didn’t just realized JT wasn’t playing with them in Gam5.
No doubt Hockey is a more team oriented sports than Basketball but your best players need to be your best players.
I am not even talking about being the best players in the series but the best players on their own teams.
Since there is only ONE Cup winner, there will always be SuperStars who didn’t lead their team to Cup Wins but most of them often being the best players for their teams despite losing the series. Can’t say AM and MM as our best players over the past two seasons.
We always talk about players having that extra gear in playoffs, it seems like for AM and MM, that’s extra gear is reverse bc they are producing way below their season average plus making rookie mistakes.
I agree that some comments made by fans are way overboard but at the same time, they deserve to be criticized due to their poor plays.

Losing Muzzin (their best playoff D) certainly didnt help for games 6 and 7 (man, they sure were ravaged by injuries dont you agree?) The Leafs had the best defensive numbers of any first round team as well but goaltending fell off the last three game (Team save% was .945-.882 Habs)

If you remove goaltending from the situation, the players with the best underlying numbers, the ones that tilted the ice for their team whenever they were on were Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner....but putting goaltending back in, the MVP of the series was Carey Price.

 

[diceman934]

Despite basketball being much different in that stars have WAY more impact on team performance, Jordan needed Pippen and Grant to emerge to get that elusive first crown and then the additions of key depth players like Kukoc, Kerr, Paxson, Rodman, etc. kept the ball rolling.

Much like Tampa after the year they got swept, the Leafs are looking for solid depth contributors instead of carrying so much dead weight. It's like a pointed out a couple of posts ago in a different thread. Matthews/Marner/Nylander have 31 points in their last 12 playoff games and Point/Kucherov/Stamkos have 30 points in their last 12 cup winning games. Why did the latter group of players win the cup?

Did a little math on Marner underlying numbers from the playoffs as well and where he ranks among RW from the playoffs over the last two years.

5v5, the top right wingers ranking the last two playoffs (200 minutes+, 28 RW total):

Shot differential:

1. Tuch
2. Kucherov
3. Voracek
4. Svechnikov
5. Marner

Scoring chance differential:

1. Rantanen
2. Kucherov
3. Pastrnak
4. Marner
5. Kucherov

High Danger scoring chance differential:

1. Marner
2. Tuch
3. Kucherov
4. Voracek
5. Gallagher

Expected Goals%:

1. Marner
2. Tuch
3. Kucherov
4. Voracek
5. Smith

I continue to maintain that the current outrage against either Matthews or Marner is badly misplaced.

Yet people on here think Nylander is better. Such a joke.

 

[diceman934]

I agree with you esp the AM part where he floats in game waiting for the puck.
Personally, I would actually play JT-AM-Ritchie on a line and see how that goes.
Stick Bunting with Kerfoot and Willie.
Then have Soup-Spezza-Marner on another line.

JT does not pass enough to play with Mathews.
Mathews best seasons are with Mitch. Mitch makes all players better.

 

[Legion34]

Why do players allow comments on instagram/Twitter?

can’t you just block it? Kinda dumb.

 

[Gabriel426]

Losing Muzzin (their best playoff D) certainly didnt help for games 6 and 7 (man, they sure were ravaged by injuries dont you agree?) The Leafs had the best defensive numbers of any first round team as well but goaltending fell off the last three game (Team save% was .945-.882 Habs)

If you remove goaltending from the situation, the players with the best underlying numbers, the ones that tilted the ice for their team whenever they were on were Auston Matthews and Mitch Marner....but putting goaltending back in, the MVP of the series was Carey Price.

But were AM and MM the best players for the Lesfs?

 

[Gabriel426]

JT does not pass enough to play with Mathews.
Mathews best seasons are with Mitch. Mitch makes all players better.

Here is a question?
How much would AM and whoever stats drop off not playing with Marner?
How much would Soup and Spezza stats increase while playing with Marner?
As a team, if the trade off is about the same, why not bc it means creating another effective line.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I agree with you esp the AM part where he floats in game waiting for the puck.
Personally, I would actually play JT-AM-Ritchie on a line and see how that goes.
Stick Bunting with Kerfoot and Willie.
Then have Soup-Spezza-Marner on another line.

Bark at the moon haha. You are radical eh. Why not put Marner with Matthews and Tavares instead of Ritchie on his off wing is my thought. Hell just make all for core centers and fill out the wings.
We know that’s never going to happen

 

[diceman934]

Here is a question?
How much would AM and whoever stats drop off not playing with Marner?
How much would Soup and Spezza stats increase while playing with Marner?
As a team, if the trade off is about the same, why not bc it means creating another effective line.

Playing Marner with them would improve them but it takes away from the best goal scoring tandem in the NHL why would we want that?

keep their ice time down during the regular season as well as find effective players for the 3 and 4th lines and play them. Keep Marner and Mathews away from the other teams shut down line. Montreal had two great pair of shut down D man.

 

[Racer88]

But were AM and MM the best players for the Lesfs?

Certainly not in the playoffs.

 

[Gabriel426]

Playing Marner with them would improve them but it takes away from the best goal scoring tandem in the NHL why would we want that?

keep their ice time down during the regular season as well as find effective players for the 3 and 4th lines and play them. Keep Marner and Mathews away from the other teams shut down line. Montreal had two great pair of shut down D man.

Team success is more important than individual success. I would take a whole bunch of 40-50pts players while winning the Cup over Rocket winner, Hart winner, Norris Winner… with their first round exit.

Most playoffs teams will have two strong D pairings. I really can’t think of a playoff team that don’t have two solid D pairings.
Maybe splitting them up will allow at least one of them against more favourable competition.
More importantly, AM and MM playing together or not, they need to be better bc opposing teams will throw their best D on them and if they can only excel against weaker D, what’s the point of paying them to their contracts?
Islanders and Vegas had nobody more talented than AM, JT and even Marner, yet, they have been winning more playoffs games than the Leafs over the past three seasons while beating really good teams.

 

[Gabriel426]

Certainly not in the playoffs.

But the advanced stats said they were, lol.

 

[Racer88]

But the advanced stats said they were, lol.

Of course they did.
My favourite is the narrative that they dominated the Habs. Lol

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Heads-up, Marner being interviewed right now (just starting) on CP24.

 

[Racer88]

Heads-up, Marner being interviewed right now (just starting) on CP24.

Thx for the heads up but I can’t can’t watch an interview with that guy ever again……I just can’t

 

[Sypher04]

Marner and Matthews have succeeded in neutralizing each others potential and should not be on the the same line. Marner fits better with JT and willy fits better with Matthews in getting a more mobile game from Matthews. The extent that matthews game has lost mobility and heavy play matched up with Marner is significant. Watching him float around to soft ice waiting for the pass from Marner is disappointing. Matthews has some of the best hands and power game in the league taking pucks off the wall until Keefe matches them up as a set combo. It’s brought some stagnation to matthews game and most definitely taken him out of the grind game he was so good at earlier in his career.
Tavares’s work rate down low and at the net is much heavier than the game Matthews has fallen in to. Tavares causes havoc down low and confusion to a degree Matthews doesn’t come close to. Add the vision Tavares has to go along with his scoring and rhe ability to find Marner in that confusion just adds time to Marners game that makes him more dangerous in that slot and scoring area. Marner is way to far out on the perimeter looking for set ups and inexplicably playing outside his strong area where he can score.
Everyone says Marner has a poor shot but really he has been shooting strong in the right area between the two faceoff dots and top of the circle. He’s really deadly in that box but plays predominately outside it playing with Matthews.
Getting Matthews back in the game and in the paint and more involved would be ideal.Matthews game is passive all season and he doesn’t know how to pick it up physically cone playoffs. Defense’ simply key in on him and take his ice away and he didn’t figure it out that he needs to go jam the net when they do that to him. Matthews net presence needs to improve in a big way to throw off teams that simply shadow him and block him out positionally.
He can’t pkay passively the entire season and expect his game to adapt without enough practice doing it all regular season.
So thats what I perceive a problem with Marner and Matthews that was consistently there all last year.

I both agree and disagree. I do think Matthews and Marner, together, have a tendency to get too cute, and float at times. And I do think Tavares likely needs Marner more than Matthews does. I think Nylander’s hybrid mindset of shooting/passing mixed with his skill level at both aspects likely open up more opportunities for Matthews goal scoring wise. I’m on the side of maybe they (Matthews & Marner) should be split again. This all said, I don’t think Tavares’ work rate down low exceeds what Matthews typically delivers and I do think physically Matthews is one of the forwards who most notably DID raise his game come playoff time, particularly in the first 4 games of the Montreal series.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I both agree and disagree. I do think Matthews and Marner, together, have a tendency to get too cute, and float at times. And I do think Tavares likely needs Marner more than Matthews does. I think Nylander’s hybrid mindset of shooting/passing mixed with his skill level at both aspects likely open up more opportunities for Matthews goal scoring wise. I’m on the side of maybe they (Matthews & Marner) should be split again. This all said, I don’t think Tavares’ work rate down low exceeds what Matthews typically delivers and I do think physically Matthews is one of the forwards who most notably DID raise his game come playoff time, particularly in the first 4 games of the Montreal series.

I agree with all of this.

 

[ZEBROA]

I would try Nylander on the left side. Nylander Matthews Marner.
Tavares should be good with whate evers left

 

[Sypher04]

I would try Nylander on the left side. Nylander Matthews Marner.
Tavares should be good with whate evers left

this idea intrigues me when it gets mentioned but I don’t know that it’d be wise.

 

[WTFMAN99]

I would try Nylander on the left side. Nylander Matthews Marner.
Tavares should be good with whate evers left

this idea intrigues me when it gets mentioned but I don’t know that it’d be wise.

I believe Keefe attempted that for 2-3 games, it wasn't good.

 

[ZEBROA]

this idea intrigues me when it gets mentioned but I don’t know that it’d be wise.

I just want them to try it for a few games. Cant harm. I got a feeling Nylander would be great on the left side. And that Matthews and Marner would be even greater then before.