Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Gabriel426]

Quite a few people actually.

They're not lacking on "working hard".

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that anything that's happened is a result of them working less than others.

I'm not sure how you'd expect him to prepare differently. Not preparing differently =/= not preparing.

Lack of results is an indication of not working harder than the other team. The results is not a one off game but rather a series of playoff games.
Not working as hard as others doesnt mean they are lazy.
Like I said before, if your team is not winning the Cup, it means you need to work harder and whatever they think they are doing, it is not enough.

As for preparing differently, the fact that he had gone 18 playoff games without a goal and just flat out sucks. I think he needs to change his preparation for playoff games. It is like you kept failing to make great steak, you are not going to keep doing what you are doing but rather look into areas to improve. It is only normal.

 

[egd27]

In order for Marner to play more like Point, that change has to happen within Marner's mindset more than grittier guys lower in the lineup, but clearly the Leafs seem to think supporting their core with checkers and grinders will facilitate more success than if they went and got more finesse first guys.

That's what is so good about Dubas.....when he ignores acquiring grinders for skill, he's brilliant, and when he seems to focus on acquiring grinders, he's also brilliant.

It's incredible

 

[Leaf Fans]

That's what is so good about Dubas.....when he ignores acquiring grinders for skill, he's brilliant, and when he seems to focus on acquiring grinders, he's also brilliant.

It's incredible

That is only in the minds of some. For other, Dubas sucks in whatever he does, and for others Dubas brings a mixed bag.

 

[egd27]

I just don’t see why AM, Marner and company can honestly say, everything is fine and as long as we keep doing what we are doing, we will eventually win.

Contrast that with Gretzky's comments after losing in the SC Finals to the Islanders in 1983.

"We walked by their locker room in the corridor and saw after they won they were too beat up to really enjoy it and savor the victory at that moment," said Gretzky. "We were able to walk out of their pretty much scot free. We had so much respect for the Islanders players and the Islanders teams that we learned immediately you have to take it to another level in order to win a Stanley Cup. And that’s what we did. We learned from it and often credit for the Islanders players and Islanders teams for teaching us exactly what it’s all about and how hard it is to win."

 

[Racer88]

Quite a few people actually.

They're not lacking on "working hard".

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that anything that's happened is a result of them working less than others.

I'm not sure how you'd expect him to prepare differently. Not preparing differently =/= not preparing.

He could start by working on his mental toughness and his attitude

 

[Gabriel426]

Contrast that with Gretzky's comments after losing in the SC Finals to the Islanders in 1983.

"We walked by their locker room in the corridor and saw after they won they were too beat up to really enjoy it and savor the victory at that moment," said Gretzky. "We were able to walk out of their pretty much scot free. We had so much respect for the Islanders players and the Islanders teams that we learned immediately you have to take it to another level in order to win a Stanley Cup. And that’s what we did. We learned from it and often credit for the Islanders players and Islanders teams for teaching us exactly what it’s all about and how hard it is to win."

Spot on. These Leafs need to know and understand whatever that they are doing is not enough, they need to do a lot more.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Lack of results is an indication of not working harder than the other team

That's a wildly simplistic take. There's a lot more that goes into winning and losing a series. There's nothing to support the idea that Marner's effort/work level is the issue.

 

[Gabriel426]

That's a wildly simplistic take. There's a lot more that goes into winning and losing a series. There's nothing to support the idea that Marner's effort/work level is the issue.

Is Marner playing well in the playoffs?
The answer is no.
How can you say that Marner’s play in the playoffs is okay or acceptable.
He might be working the hardest of all the Leafs but that’s still not enough bc the Leafs didn’t advance or Win the Cup. It is as simple as that.
If you take comfort in their advance stats and stuff, that’s fine. While most of us like to focus on the W at the end of each game.

Like I said, Marner might be working the hardest of anyone and everyone but that’s still not enough bc the team he supposed to lead based on his salary(2nd highest paid winger in the league), and his regular season stats(4th in league) failed to win the Cup and got knocked out in the First round AGAIN where he was a no Show in the 3 elimination games.

 

[ZEBROA]

Maby Marner dont need to work harder, but he defenitly need to work smarter. If u got the ability to slow a game down. Use it. Dont get frustrated, get sharp.

He need the mindset of P Forsberg. Marner has all skill in the world, but not near the same mindset.

 

[mikeyz]

That's a wildly simplistic take. There's a lot more that goes into winning and losing a series. There's nothing to support the idea that Marner's effort/work level is the issue.

You can’t possibly be serious.

How about the fact that he hasn’t scored a goal in the last 18 playoff games

 

[Apex Predator]

As a lot of time has passed since the lose the one thing that still bothers me is just how nonchalant he was post game. It’s not the first time he’s been like that and unfortunately probably won’t be the last.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Is Marner playing well in the playoffs?
The answer is no.

The answer is a lot more complicated than just "no". He's not hitting the production levels we've come to expect from him (for reasons that are pretty obviously about a lot more than just him), but beyond that, he's putting in a ton of work out there, and is generally playing well - generating opportunities at an elite rate, playing well defensively, and doing a lot of the right things - even outscoring his matchup this year.

I'd like to see more from him, and see him continue to improve, but the idea that he's not working hard out there, or that he needs some fundamental change or we're never going to win a series/the cup is not based in fact.

He might be working the hardest of all the Leafs but that’s still not enough bc the Leafs didn’t advance or Win the Cup. It is as simple as that.

You seem to be under the impression that a player can just will a team to the cup. That if a player works harder than everybody else, then that guarantees their team a series or the cup. That's not how it works.

If you take comfort in their advance stats and stuff, that’s fine. While most of us like to focus on the W at the end of each game.

You should be looking at both, to understand what happened, but also why it happened, especially if you're planning to throw around claims about why.

 

[Mess]

Here are Marner' s playoff stats from the past 3 years.

He has gone scoreless in 18 straight games and during that time Leafs have lost 11 of those games (BOS X 4), (CBJ X 3), and MON X 4) and during those losses Marner has contributed just a single assist in each of those 3 series.

2018-2019 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	OPP	RESULT	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	TOI	PROD
Thu 4/11	@ BOS .	W 4-1	2	0	2	3	0	5	40.0	0	0	1	0	1	19:08	9:34
Sat 4/13	@ BOS	L 1-4	0	0	0	-1	0	3	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:28	0:00
Mon 4/15	vs BOS	W 3-2	0	1	1	0	0	5	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	23:12	23:12
Wed 4/17	vs BOS	L 4-6	0	1	1	-3	0	1	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	18:49	18:49
Fri 4/19	@ BOS	W 2-1	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:16	0:00
Sun 4/21	vs BOS	L 2-4	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	21:17	0:00
Tue 4/23	@ BOS	L 1-5	0	0	0	-1	0	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:53	0:00
Conference Quarterfinals	2	2	4	-4	2	19	10.5	0	2	1	0	1	144:03	36:00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2019-2020 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	OPP	RESULT	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	TOI	PROD
Sun 8/2	vs CBJ .	L 0-2	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:05	0:00
Tue 8/4	vs CBJ	W 3-0	0	0	0	1	0	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	24:01	0:00
Thu 8/6	@ CBJ	L 3-4 (OT)	0	1	1	0	0	1	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	28:00	28:00
Fri 8/7	@ CBJ	W 4-3 (OT)	0	3	3	1	2	8	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	27:58	9:19
Sun 8/9	vs CBJ	L 0-3	0	0	0	-1	0	1	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	23:12	0:00
Qualifying Games	0	4	4	-1	2	15	0.0	0	2	0	0	0	123:16	30:49

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2020-2021 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	OPP	RESULT	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	TOI	PROD
Thu 5/20	vs MTL .	L 1-2	0	0	0	-1	2	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	27:23	0:00
Sat 5/22	vs MTL	W 5-1	0	2	2	1	0	0	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	22:50	11:25
Mon 5/24	@ MTL	W 2-1	0	1	1	1	0	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	24:25	24:25
Tue 5/25	@ MTL	W 4-0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	19:41	0:00
Thu 5/27	vs MTL	L 3-4 (OT)	0	1	1	1	0	3	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	24:28	24:28
Sat 5/29	@ MTL	L 2-3 (OT)	0	0	0	0	2	3	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	30:22	0:00
Mon 5/31	vs MTL	L 1-3	0	0	0	-1	0	2	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	23:55	0:00
Conference Quarterfinals	0	4	4	1	4	19	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	173:04	43:16

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Racer88]

Here are Marner' s playoff stats from the past 3 years.

He has gone scoreless in 18 straight games and during that time Leafs have lost 11 of those games (BOS X 4), (CBJ X 3), and MON X 4) and during those losses Marner has contributed just a single assist in each of those 3 series.

2018-2019 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	OPP	RESULT	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	TOI	PROD
Thu 4/11	@ BOS .	W 4-1	2	0	2	3	0	5	40.0	0	0	1	0	1	19:08	9:34
Sat 4/13	@ BOS	L 1-4	0	0	0	-1	0	3	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:28	0:00
Mon 4/15	vs BOS	W 3-2	0	1	1	0	0	5	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	23:12	23:12
Wed 4/17	vs BOS	L 4-6	0	1	1	-3	0	1	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	18:49	18:49
Fri 4/19	@ BOS	W 2-1	0	0	0	-1	2	0	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:16	0:00
Sun 4/21	vs BOS	L 2-4	0	0	0	-1	0	0	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	21:17	0:00
Tue 4/23	@ BOS	L 1-5	0	0	0	-1	0	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:53	0:00
Conference Quarterfinals	2	2	4	-4	2	19	10.5	0	2	1	0	1	144:03	36:00

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2019-2020 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	OPP	RESULT	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	TOI	PROD
Sun 8/2	vs CBJ .	L 0-2	0	0	0	-2	0	0	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	20:05	0:00
Tue 8/4	vs CBJ	W 3-0	0	0	0	1	0	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	24:01	0:00
Thu 8/6	@ CBJ	L 3-4 (OT)	0	1	1	0	0	1	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	28:00	28:00
Fri 8/7	@ CBJ	W 4-3 (OT)	0	3	3	1	2	8	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	27:58	9:19
Sun 8/9	vs CBJ	L 0-3	0	0	0	-1	0	1	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	23:12	0:00
Qualifying Games	0	4	4	-1	2	15	0.0	0	2	0	0	0	123:16	30:49

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2020-2021 POSTSEASON GAME LOG
DATE	OPP	RESULT	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	SOG	%	PPG	PPA	SHG	SHA	GWG	TOI	PROD
Thu 5/20	vs MTL .	L 1-2	0	0	0	-1	2	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	27:23	0:00
Sat 5/22	vs MTL	W 5-1	0	2	2	1	0	0	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	22:50	11:25
Mon 5/24	@ MTL	W 2-1	0	1	1	1	0	5	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	24:25	24:25
Tue 5/25	@ MTL	W 4-0	0	0	0	0	0	1	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	19:41	0:00
Thu 5/27	vs MTL	L 3-4 (OT)	0	1	1	1	0	3	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	24:28	24:28
Sat 5/29	@ MTL	L 2-3 (OT)	0	0	0	0	2	3	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	30:22	0:00
Mon 5/31	vs MTL	L 1-3	0	0	0	-1	0	2	0.0	0	0	0	0	0	23:55	0:00
Conference Quarterfinals	0	4	4	1	4	19	0.0	0	1	0	0	0	173:04	43:16

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Ya that either shoots down the narrative that he is working hard and generating quality opportunities OR he is just not as elite as some people think.
If you can’t finish all the rest is simply excuses and white noise
Either way he is not worth his contract if a cup is the end game

 

[Gary Nylund]

Contrast that with Gretzky's comments after losing in the SC Finals to the Islanders in 1983.

"We walked by their locker room in the corridor and saw after they won they were too beat up to really enjoy it and savor the victory at that moment," said Gretzky. "We were able to walk out of their pretty much scot free. We had so much respect for the Islanders players and the Islanders teams that we learned immediately you have to take it to another level in order to win a Stanley Cup. And that’s what we did. We learned from it and often credit for the Islanders players and Islanders teams for teaching us exactly what it’s all about and how hard it is to win."

That was such a memorable story, one that I will never forget and it's a lesson that Marner has obviously yet to learn. Will he ever learn, that is is the question. At the moment he clearly he believes that there is nothing for him to learn and as long as he's taking up so much of our cap with that attitude, we're screwed. And that's the main reason I would have put him on the trading block the minute the season ended.

 

[myleafs]

Maby Marner dont need to work harder, but he defenitly need to work smarter. If u got the ability to slow a game down. Use it. Dont get frustrated, get sharp.

He need the mindset of P Forsberg. Marner has all skill in the world, but not near the same mindset.

I agree with this but Forsberg was next level competitor. If Marner can grasp half of what Forsberg brought he will be fine.

 

[Gabriel426]

The answer is a lot more complicated than just "no". He's not hitting the production levels we've come to expect from him (for reasons that are pretty obviously about a lot more than just him), but beyond that, he's putting in a ton of work out there, and is generally playing well - generating opportunities at an elite rate, playing well defensively, and doing a lot of the right things - even outscoring his matchup this year.

I'd like to see more from him, and see him continue to improve, but the idea that he's not working hard out there, or that he needs some fundamental change or we're never going to win a series/the cup is not based in fact.

You seem to be under the impression that a player can just will a team to the cup. That if a player works harder than everybody else, then that guarantees their team a series or the cup. That's not how it works.

You should be looking at both, to understand what happened, but also why it happened, especially if you're planning to throw around claims about why.

Just respect other people opinion and I am going to leave it as that.
No point going back and forth with you.

 

[therealkoho]

An Early Guess as the Toronto Maple Leafs 2021-22 Lineup

Despite a really bad playoff series against Montreal , the Toronto Maple Leafs have the best first-line in the NHL. Auston Matthews is the second best hockey player in the world, and the only one even close to Connor McDavid (Matthews finished with a higher WAR last year despite McDavid scoring over 100 points).

Mitch Marner’s stock is low due to a bizarre 18 game playoff goalless streak and a penchant for tossing the puck over the glass. And yet, the underlying numbers were still off-the-charts excellent, and it is clear that the only thing stopping him from taking his regular season game into the playoffs has been bad luck and a small sample size.

Marner broke out last year by turning in an elite defensive performance to match his 100 point scoring pace (which he’d already demonstrated). If Marner is again in the 80th percentile (or above) of defensive forwards, and continues his incredible scoring rate (he was second in the NHL in 5v5 scoring behind McDavid last year) then he is on track to be the third best player in the NHL.

In the first five years’ of their careers, Marner has played about 70 less games than MacKinnon did, and has about 40 more points, while playing way better defense. If MacKinnon is the consensus #3 player in the world right now, it will be interesting to see how the two-yeas-younger-but-way-better-at-the-same-age Marner will develop.

 

[Gabriel426]

An Early Guess as the Toronto Maple Leafs 2021-22 Lineup

I always thought Kuch and Mack are tied for 2nd best player in the World. Actually, I think Kuch is the best player in the World.
Also beside having a great rookie season, Mack was okay. Actually, he was bad and people tended to forget that Mack was moved to RW bc they thought he can’t handle being a C. Mack really didn’t become the player he is today until the Avs cleaned house by trading away ROR and Duchense.

 

[therealkoho]

As a lot of time has passed since the lose the one thing that still bothers me is just how nonchalant he was post game. It’s not the first time he’s been like that and unfortunately probably won’t be the last.

once he cried and people lost their doodoo saying "what a wimp," now he takes it in stride and all of a sudden that means he doesn't care

I've been a Leafs fan since the 1962 cup win, I can honestly say that Marner may be running neck and neck with the 3 best Leaf's of all time, if his Leafs teams win at least 2 SC's and he maintains at least 1.0PPG during his career here minimum 12 seasons, then I'd be prepared to say he is the best, unless Matty stays that entire time as well(which as hard as it is to consider I don't think he will)!

 

[therealkoho]

I always thought Kuch and Mack are tied for 2nd best player in the World. Actually, I think Kuch is the best player in the World.
Also beside having a great rookie season, Mack was okay. Actually, he was bad and people tended to forget that Mack was moved to RW bc they thought he can’t handle being a C. Mack really didn’t become the player he is today until the Avs cleaned house by trading away ROR and Duchense.

As great as Kucherov is, he ain't no McJeebuzz

If McJee had a couple of SC's there wouldn't even be an argument that could be made

IMHO

 

[Gary Nylund]

An Early Guess as the Toronto Maple Leafs 2021-22 Lineup

Geez Louise what a terrible article. My favourite part is "the two-yeas-younger-but-way-better-at-the-same-age Marner". I mean sure, let's just ignore the playoffs, who cares about playoff performance when evaluating players, right? MacKinnon has never been below PPG in the playoffs, hell he put up 10 points in 7 playoff games at age 18 and the idea that Marner at the same age is better, never mind "way better" is just insane.

Amusing side note - two yeas younger, really? That's some quality journalism there eh?

once he cried and people lost their doodoo saying "what a wimp," now he takes it in stride and all of a sudden that means he doesn't care

I've been a Leafs fan since the 1962 cup win, I can honestly say that Marner may be running neck and neck with the 3 best Leaf's of all time, if his Leafs teams win at least 2 SC's and he maintains at least 1.0PPG during his career here minimum 12 seasons, then I'd be prepared to say he is the best, unless Matty stays that entire time as well(which as hard as it is to consider I don't think he will)!

We're still working on winning one round so there's a long way to go. And as far as 1.0PPG goes, he has to perform at a high level in the playoffs to be considered great, never mind the greatest ever so again, a long way to go.

 

[Menzinger]

Geez Louise what a terrible article. My favourite part is "the two-yeas-younger-but-way-better-at-the-same-age Marner". I mean sure, let's just ignore the playoffs, who cares about playoff performance when evaluating players, right? MacKinnon has never been below PPG in the playoffs, hell he put up 10 points in 7 playoff games at age 18 and the idea that Marner at the same age is better, never mind "way better" is just insane.

Amusing side note - two yeas younger, really? That's some quality journalism there eh?



We're still working on winning one round so there's a long way to go. And as far as 1.0PPG goes, he has to perform at a high level in the playoffs to be considered great, never mind the greatest ever so again, a long way to go.

I'd say Mac's playoff performances tend to get fairly overrated. He managed to put up points against the earlier weaker opponents then falls flat when facing s challenge - ie the Avs loss to Vegas this year

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'd say Mac's playoff performances tend to get fairly overrated. He managed to put up points against the earlier weaker opponents then falls flat when facing s challenge - ie the Avs loss to Vegas this year

Maybe so but he'd have to be overrated by several country miles for Marner to be considered better.

 

[Racer88]

I'd say Mac's playoff performances tend to get fairly overrated. He managed to put up points against the earlier weaker opponents then falls flat when facing s challenge - ie the Avs loss to Vegas this year

I would say it can’t get much weaker then the 18th place team that we played in round 1 this year and Marner / Matthews were awful and unproductive