Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Dreakmur]

That's just simply not true - they generated quite a bit in close and from the slot, and actually doubled Montreal's rebound attempts, and you also greatly exaggerate the "ease" and how often point blank chances are saved when 15 bodies aren't piled high in front.

No traffic makes shots easier to stop - that's a fact.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If the narrative is the Leafs did their best and got beat by a hero goalie, well, there's more hero goalies out there and winning will never be in our control.

Facing the top 3 goalies in playoff SV% over the past 3 years, among all opposing goalies to play more than one series, isn't exactly a common occurrence, and we almost won those series despite that and some pretty significant injuries. Winning is never 100% in anybody's control. Tons of things can impact winning or losing.

Funny that when you look at guys we've added like Ritchie, Kampf and Bunting, Dubas is clearly not looking for pure offensive additions that would overcome the hero goalie road block but instead looking to address those goofy eye test intangibles.

They bring some "intangibles", but there's no reason to think those additions were about "working harder", and we're already one of the better converting teams in the league, but it's not like Ritchie and Bunting are bad converters.

No traffic makes shots easier to stop - that's a fact.

There was plenty of traffic in plenty of instances, and easier =/= easy.

 

[Dreakmur]

There was plenty of traffic, and easier =/= easy.

This has to be Stockholm syndrome. Like this post if you need to be rescued.

 

[Mess]

No traffic makes shots easier to stop - that's a fact.

Leafs opposition have figured it out and used systems (neutral zone trap, and defensive zone box with all players collapsing down low and boxing out HDSC etc etc) with the use of player personnel that are big, physical, defensive oriented and designed to increase their goaltenders ability to see pucks and not face dangerous rebounds in close.

CBJ and Montreal both successfully systematically made their goaltenders look good and jobs easier, because they know highly skilled players like Marner love to stay on the perimeter where they can avoid physical contract, and avoid the high danger areas including down low in the blue paint, because they're not willing to sacrifice physically to take hits to make plays and go into heavy traffic to do so.

With a muffin for a shot Marner is never going to beat a goalie from distance, particularly if its unscreened, and with no traffic down low. So they leave him out on the perimeter, taking away his main passing option Matthews and essentially nullify him from being a dangerous scoring treat both himself or this linemates but clogging up passing lanes. Break up the rush and Leafs preferred attack and easy zone entries, and force dump and chase tactics which their skilled players are ill prepared for to regain possession is already advantage defense.

Keefe's only answer to his successful playoff style defense and shutdown systems being deployed against the Leafs is to play Marner more, like that is going to get him to magically change his style of play with more icetime. If you can't beat Columbus goalie wait until you're facing Andrei Vasilevskiy or other elite goalies as the underdogs in a series and see if the results change in Leafs favour.

Then the excuse is always the opposition goalie keeps beating us and keeps shutting us out and that is simply bad luck, but eventually that will change for Leafs. Not until the Leafs core players grow a pair and a backbone and willing to play in heavy traffic and take the abuse to change and breakthrough that system ,nothing will change only the names of the opposition team and the next goalie.

 

[Stephen]

Facing the top 3 goalies in playoff SV% over the past 3 years, among all opposing goalies to play more than one series, isn't exactly a common occurrence, and we almost won those series despite that and some pretty significant injuries. Winning is never 100% in anybody's control. Tons of things can impact winning or losing.

If you look at the way the Leafs revamped their roster at forward this offseason, it doesn't look like they targeted more scoring to arm themselves for future series against more elite goalies. The way they went after Ritchie, Kampf, Bunting, Kase and Gabriel it looks like they're looking for all the intangibles, which follows the deadline acquisition of guys like Foligno, Nash, they seem to be clearly looking for a mix of ingredients to support the scoring.

 

[Stephen]

That is the million dollar question how do we get Mitch Marner to perform like his comparable Brayden Point come playoff time, and instead of going 18 games without a goal, but become an impactful player instead of a passenger so the Leafs can emulate TB success?

Filling out your bottom 6 with checkers and grinders can't be the solution to make your star players WHO are expected to lead the team to success more effective and efficient and productive.

Brayden Point hasn't lead the playoffs in goal scoring the past 2 years being of similar size to Marner and one of their offensive leaders because TB deploys Barclay Goodrow and Blake Coleman on their 3rd line, nor more then one would expect Bunting and Kampf to change Marner's impact.

In order for Marner to play more like Point, that change has to happen within Marner's mindset more than grittier guys lower in the lineup, but clearly the Leafs seem to think supporting their core with checkers and grinders will facilitate more success than if they went and got more finesse first guys.

 

[Stephen]

Leafs opposition have figured it out and used systems (neutral zone trap, and defensive zone box with all players collapsing down low and boxing out HDSC etc etc) with the use of player personnel that are big, physical, defensive oriented and designed to increase their goaltenders ability to see pucks and not face dangerous rebounds in close.

CBJ and Montreal both successfully systematically made their goaltenders look good and jobs easier, because they know highly skilled players like Marner love to stay on the perimeter where they can avoid physical contract, and avoid the high danger areas including down low in the blue paint, because they're not willing to sacrifice physically to take hits to make plays and go into heavy traffic to do so.

With a muffin for a shot Marner is never going to beat a goalie from distance, particularly if its unscreened, and with no traffic down low. So they leave him out on the perimeter, taking away his main passing option Matthews and essentially nullify him from being a dangerous scoring treat both himself or this linemates but clogging up passing lanes. Break up the rush and Leafs preferred attack and easy zone entries, and force dump and chase tactics which their skilled players are ill prepared for to regain possession is already advantage defense.

Keefe's only answer to his successful playoff style defense and shutdown systems being deployed against the Leafs is to play Marner more, like that is going to get him to magically change his style of play with more icetime. If you can't beat Columbus goalie wait until you're facing Andrei Vasilevskiy or other elite goalies as the underdogs in a series and see if the results change in Leafs favour.

Then the excuse is always the opposition goalie keeps beating us and keeps shutting us out and that is simply bad luck, but eventually that will change for Leafs. Not until the Leafs core players grow a pair and a backbone and willing to play in heavy traffic and take the abuse to change and breakthrough that system ,nothing will change only the names of the opposition team and the next goalie.

Yeah, box out the Leafs and let them spam shots on the perimeter cycle, or else use positional play to keep them at odd shooting angles and body positioning relative to each other. Sprinkle in your cheap shots here and there and let your goalie see the shot. On the PK, set up on the blueline and call out "red rover red rover..." let Toronto kill themselves on the drop pass.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If you look at the way the Leafs revamped their roster at forward this offseason, it doesn't look like they targeted more scoring to arm themselves for future series against more elite goalies. The way they went after Ritchie, Kampf, Bunting, Kase and Gabriel it looks like they're looking for all the intangibles, which follows the deadline acquisition of guys like Foligno, Nash, they seem to be clearly looking for a mix of ingredients to support the scoring.

You don't build your team around the chance you run into a hot goalie; you just build the best team you can, but our additions actually feature quite a bit of scoring and conversion potential, in addition to a good variety of "intangibles". Nothing about our additions suggests an issue with "working hard".

 

[Racer88]

In order for Marner to play more like Point, that change has to happen within Marner's mindset more than grittier guys lower in the lineup, but clearly the Leafs seem to think supporting their core with checkers and grinders will facilitate more success than if they went and got more finesse first guys.

Agree 100%. I think Marner has the skills to be that players but he just needs to commit to the work, effort and attitude needed to achieve success.
Stating in multiple season ending pressers that he wasn’t ready to start a game and this years presser that he wasn’t going to do anything different this year to prepare shows that he does not believe that he needs to change anything.
I’m not sure he will ever get it…….until after he get the wake up call of being traded

 

[Racer88]

You don't build your team around the chance you run into a hot goalie; you just build the best team you can, but our additions actually feature quite a bit of scoring and conversion potential, in addition to a good variety of "intangibles". Nothing about our additions suggests an issue with "working hard".

Good players find a way to beat hot goalies especially when that is the excuse 3 years in a row, Willy and Spezza did. If this was not the case why spend all that money on 4 similar forwards just spend all your resources to get the best goalie you can

 

[Mess]

In order for Marner to play more like Point, that change has to happen within Marner's mindset more than grittier guys lower in the lineup, but clearly the Leafs seem to think supporting their core with checkers and grinders will facilitate more success than if they went and got more finesse first guys.

Well its a step in the right direction if you're now expecting those depth players to carry Leafs skilled players to team success. Bringing a figure skating team to the playoffs like previous attempts produced the expected results when the going got tough. At least the bottom part of the roster is moving in the right direction to avoid the bringing a knife to a gunfight analogy of poor player personnel decisions for playoff style hard hitting and tight checking hockey.

"Its not me its you" and by that I mean its not Leafs teammates its you Mitch Marner that needs to change.

Deploying a bunch of knuckle daggers and grinders and checkers on your 3rd and 4th line is not going to change the offensive ability and productivity of your #1 line when they're sitting on the bench and watching them, playing keep away on the perimeter, during their shifts and wondering why pucks aren't going in for them.

We finally saw some promise in Matthews last playoffs that he was willing to attempt to engage physically and throw some hits to get more engaged. His being rag-dolled thereafter was more embarrassing then productive, by grinning and laughing as opposed to continuing the process like we saw in so many others series where star players don't back down but engage and drive up the intensity further. At least its a start and something that provides a glimmer of hope of self improvement and physical maturity happening as he attempts to provide more killer instinct mentality.

Marner is a complete lost cause to expect any type of physical engagement and playing in traffic to the point where he just hears traffic coming and he is dumping the puck over the glass to avoid even the remote possibility of being hit. All stick checks and no hip checks and all talk as to what went wrong and what they need to do better next time and no action with him.

 

[Stephen]

You don't build your team around the chance you run into a hot goalie; you just build the best team you can, but our additions actually feature quite a bit of scoring and conversion potential, in addition to a good variety of "intangibles". Nothing about our additions suggests an issue with "working hard".

By definition, building a team around a Big 4 with high end offensive players who can "outskill" anybody is about beating those hot goalies and stout defensive teams.

If the core group was already working hard, showing maturity but coming up short offensively, wouldn't the most obvious solution be to add more offensive skill? Clearly the organization feels like the skill component is there but the plumbing isn't right so they need to add other ingredients to get it going. Even Marner himself has pointed to his lack of game readiness at times during the Columbus and Montreal series.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Good players find a way to beat hot goalies

Actually, good players usually see their production decrease quite a bit against hot goaltending.

If this was not the case why spend all that money on 4 similar forwards just spend all your resources to get the best goalie you can

Because goaltending play is way more variable and inconsistent than any other position.

 

[Stephen]

Well its a step in the right direction if you're now expecting those depth players to carry Leafs skilled players to team success. Bringing a figure skating team to the playoffs like previous attempts produced the expected results when the going got tough. At least the bottom part of the roster is moving in the right direction to avoid the bringing a knife to a gunfight analogy of poor player personnel decisions for playoff style hard hitting and tight checking hockey.

"Its not me its you" and by that I mean its not Leafs teammates its you Mitch Marner that needs to change.

Deploying a bunch of knuckle daggers and grinders and checkers on your 3rd and 4th line is not going to change the offensive ability and productivity of your #1 line when they're sitting on the bench and watching them, playing keep away on the perimeter, during their shifts and wondering why pucks aren't going in for them.

We finally saw some promise in Matthews last playoffs that he was willing to attempt to engage physically and throw some hits to get more engaged. His being rag-dolled thereafter was more embarrassing then productive, by grinning and laughing as opposed to continuing the process like we saw in so many others series where star players don't back down but engage and drive up the intensity further. At least its a start and something that provides a glimmer of hope of self improvement and physical maturity happening as he attempts to provide more killer instinct mentality.

Marner is a complete lost cause to expect any type of physical engagement and playing in traffic to the point where he just hears traffic coming and he is dumping the puck over the glass to avoid even the remote possibility of being hit. All stick checks and no hip checks and all talk as to what went wrong and what they need to do better next time and no action with him.

Was listening to a really interesting program about body language, confidence and psychology, and there were two anecdotes that relate well to the way the Leafs have shown a lack of "killer instinct" - their words, not ours.

The first one is body language experts can often tell which MMA fighter will lose the fight, based on certain displays of submissive body postures and conciliatory gestures before a fight. This reminds me of the anecdotal stories about the Leafs staying quiet in big moments on the bench, looking scared when getting chirped.

The second was an anecdote about how the ancient Persian Empire was lined up on the battle field ready to fight the Scythians. But before the battle, the Scythians appeared to be so cool and collected that they casually broke rank started hunting rabbits for dinner to kill time before the fight. Seeing this confidence/indifference, it spooked the Persians and they went home. This reminds me of when we've traditionally played Boston or lined up against Carey Price, and there seems to be confidence in the opposition that they know they'll beat the Leafs even when it appears we have the upper hand.

In this context, it's no surprise that the Leafs seem to have spent the last couple of years trying to infuse more size, maturity and a certain alpha quality into the line up to insulate their core group.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I questioned the coaches decision to play Sandin in game 1. If the coach plays Dermott, we may have won game 1 and swept Montreal.

Flat out Sandin should not have seen a minute of action this series. He was far more of a liability than anything. Directly responsible for three goals against and a major contributor to two out of the four losses. One of Keefe’s many bad decision that series.

 

[Dekes For Days]

building a team around a Big 4 with high end offensive players who can "outskill" anybody is about beating those hot goalies and stout defensive teams.

Building a team with elite players is about building a good team - it's not about beating some particular situation.

If the core group was already working hard, showing maturity but coming up short offensively, wouldn't the most obvious solution be to add more offensive skill?

We are already one of the best offensive teams in the league. Our offseason additions feature players with a wide variety of skills, from scoring potential and conversion ability, to physicality, to defensive and penalty kill ability, etc., to build the best team possible.

 

[Gabriel426]

No, if you score more goals over a particular short sample, it doesn't mean that you "worked harder" in that sample than everybody who scored less goals than you. Spezza and Nylander were not the "hardest working" players on multiple teams, and if they don't maintain that goal-scoring pace in the future, it doesn't mean they stopped working hard. There is more work involved in generating opportunities than converting opportunities, and no matter how hard you work, it doesn't guarantee a goal.

Don’t downplay and discredit Willie and Spezza effort level in the playoffs. Also just bc I am saying Willie and Spezza worked harder than AM and Marner, it didn’t mean AM and Marner were lazy, rather it meant whatever they were doing weren’t enough. To put it simply, Willie and Spezza got a score of 95/100 in the past playoffs while AM and Marner got a score of 76/100 in the same playoffs. While guys like Soup and Engvall got 58/100. 76 is good but the fact that they are the leaders of the team, Rocket Winner, 1st team All Star, 4th leading pts in league, getting a score of 76 sucks and they need to be better.
Sometime you are just too blindly defending the players for no reason at all. If they done well, they deserve praise but if they choked, they deserve criticism. AM and Marner choked in the playoffs, as simple as that. This is not a league for participating but a get it done League and sofar-they couldn’t get it done.
Does that mean they will be forever choker, I hope not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Don’t downplay and discredit Willie and Spezza effort level in the playoffs.

I'm not. They did well. Goals over any particular small sample just isn't some perfect representation of how hard players worked in that sample.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Stans = fanboys

Really? That is the first time I heard that one. Thanks.

 

[hamzarocks]

Really? That is the first time I heard that one. Thanks.

More common in NBA circles.

Bron stans, MJ stans, kobe stans etc.

Dont hear it as often in the NHL

 

[Gabriel426]

I'm not. They did well. Goals over any particular small sample just isn't some perfect representation of how hard players worked in that sample.

I doubt you will be saying if AM and Marner got Willie stats and vice versa.
For the record, despite Willie Great playoffs, he needs to do more bc the Leafs didn’t win the Cup.
When MJ and his Bulls lost to the Celtics and Pistons, they worked harder and tougher bc they know they ain’t good enough.
I just don’t see why AM, Marner and company can honestly say, everything is fine and as long as we keep doing what we are doing, we will eventually win. That’s by far the worst attitude. Even Champions keep working on their games bc they know their opponents are working just as hard if not harder to dethrone them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I just don’t see why AM, Marner and company can honestly say, everything is fine and as long as we keep doing what we are doing, we will eventually win. That’s by far the worst attitude. Even Champions keep working on their games

Of course Matthews and Marner are still working on their games, and doing everything they can to improve and win. They don't need fans acting like everything they touch is garbage to do that. Just because somebody isn't putting up the production levels one wants in a particular sample, it doesn't mean everything they're doing is wrong, or they're not working hard.

 

[Gabriel426]

Of course Matthews and Marner are still working on their games, and doing everything they can to improve and win. They don't need fans acting like everything they touch is garbage to do that. Just because somebody isn't putting up the production levels one wants in a particular sample, it doesn't mean everything they're doing is wrong, or they're not working hard.

Who said they are doing something wrong? If anything, they are not doing enough. Also, Marner’s shot is garbage and I am 100% sure even he knows that deep inside and that’s why he looks for pass instead of shot.
They might be working hard but it is not enough as they still couldn’t get the results. If they ever want to lead the Leafs or any teams to a Cup, they need to work a lot harder than now.
I don’t think we can find it but if we can find out which players show up for optional skate or show up early and leave late for practices, that’s a pretty good indication of who are the hardest workers in the team. Also working hard is not a one week thing or two weeks thing, the results won’t show right away, it will show in the long run. I am not sure have you played competitive sports but if you do, you should know that that extra inch or extra jump or push is really the result of putting in the hard work over a period of time.
Maybe AM and Marner are working 5 hrs a day but what if everyone else is working 6 hrs a day.
It is fine if they just want to be passenger on a Cup team but at the same time don’t ask for top dollars if you don’t want the pressure and burden of being the best.

 

[Racer88]

Of course Matthews and Marner are still working on their games, and doing everything they can to improve and win. They don't need fans acting like everything they touch is garbage to do that. Just because somebody isn't putting up the production levels one wants in a particular sample, it doesn't mean everything they're doing is wrong, or they're not working hard.

Marner said he wasn’t going to do anything different to prepare for next year, so either he doesn’t think he needs to or we can’t take him at his word

 

[Dekes For Days]

Who said they are doing something wrong?

Quite a few people actually.

If they ever want to lead the Leafs or any teams to a Cup, they need to work a lot harder than now.

They're not lacking on "working hard".

Maybe AM and Marner are working 5 hrs a day but what if everyone else is working 6 hrs a day.

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that anything that's happened is a result of them working less than others.

Marner said he wasn’t going to do anything different to prepare for next year

I'm not sure how you'd expect him to prepare differently. Not preparing differently =/= not preparing.