Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Captain Crunch]

I'm not saying we should only expect to play easy teams - I'm merely acknowledging that there are things that can impact individual playoff production of a player, that they won't always experience. Marner has experienced very difficult situations to produce over the past few years, to an extent that is not common at all, and his production given those situations, while disappointing as a fan, is not as uncommon as people make it out to be.

Our team has generally done well against opposing skaters over the past couple years, but facing hot goaltending in a series will always make winning more difficult. Goaltenders have such massive influence on the game, and are a big part of why upsets are so common in hockey.

I understand that losing sucks, and that's all that most people can focus on, but what should be encouraging is that we did run into spectacular goaltending, and only lost by the very slimmest of margins, while missing a massive part of our team. We saw a team like Winnipeg lose an important player, and get obliterated and swept by the same team. We saw 120 point pace Vegas, even while generally healthy, perform worse than us, and lose in 6 to that same team.

They were also the Cup finalist, and beat higher ranked teams than us this playoffs, so clearly something was happening in the playoffs that wasn't happening when accumulating their regular season record. I think we all know what that was.

A reminder as well that the discussion was about Marner's production specifically. While Montreal may be a decent opponent for the team to beat, facing Montreal, largely at 5v5, and going up against Danault and Weber, and Price going god mode is not a great situation to produce, and we saw that in more than just Marner.

We are not that far off from Colorado, and we are fully capable of winning a cup. I think Tampa and their use of the cap loophole to ice what is essentially an illegal roster, has kind of skewed perception of your average cup-quality team.

By the logic you're using, Montreal is a worse team than us, and they got to the Cup final, so clearly we're destined to win next year, right? In reality, what round you got to isn't the best reflection of team quality or chance to win moving forward.

I mean sure, that would be great and something I hope to see more of in the future, but that's also not really his specialty. I'm not sure why people expect it to suddenly become his specialty in a situation where even the best goal-scorer in the world is struggling to convert.

Marner's shot is certainly not his specialty, but it's also not nearly as bad as people make it out to be, and not all elite players have elite shots. That said, it's a fair criticism, and something he should most be looking to improve. By all accounts, it is something he's working on, and we've seen some results from that, as he was on a 30-goal pace this year.

Being "too fancy with his plays" - fair to some extent, but again, wildly overblown. Are there occasional times when a simpler play would probably be more advisable? Sure, but that could be said about most high-end players, and that's largely a hindsight reaction to it not working. If we were to neuter his creativity, then we'd also be removing a lot of times it does work and create amazing opportunities. Obviously, as players gain more experience, they are able to pick their spots a bit better, but you can't remove every single instance of a creative play not working without talking away the countless times a creative play does work, and for a player with the abilities of Marner, that trade-off is generally worth it overall.

I remember this being discussed in regards to Kucherov during the 2020 playoffs. Sometimes he makes a play that makes you go "Why would he do X instead of Y??", because for most players, X usually doesn't work. But then he does it again, X works, and you get this spectacular A++ opportunity, and you go "Oh yeah, that's why - he's not most players".

The engagement thing, I disagree. That is not a fair criticism. I'm not sure how anybody can say he's not engaged out there, giving it his all. This all seems to stem from his comments in 2020, where he mentioned not being as engaged physically at the beginning of specifically his first game after months of not playing. Somehow, this got twisted into not engaged physically for the whole series. Which then got twisted into not engaged in general. Which then got twisted into him being some lazy, selfish bum who doesn't care or try. It's like some horrible game of broken telephone.

However, the main issue isn't that these three criticisms exist. The main issue is the extent to which they are wildly exaggerated, and more-so all of the other nonsense that gets thrown at Marner. Flat out false, easily disprovable statements with zero substantiation. Insults not only about his hockey play, but about him as an individual. You don't have to love Marner, but we're all supposed to be fans here, and it's just an endless barrage of people saying things about one of our best players that I wouldn't even say about my worst enemies or most hated players on other teams. It's, quite frankly, disgusting.

So in essence you’re saying Marner will do well as long as he doesn’t run into a hot goaltender?

 

[Captain Crunch]

Most wouldn’t know it but Marner is my favourite player. Just want to put that out there. I do not blindly favour him or criticize him.
Everyone has their own idea of him. Mine is predominantly that he is being over used by Keefe and needs minimum 18 or 19 minutes per game and Maximum 21 or 22 per game depending obviously on circumstances.
That means zero penalty killing unless it is the last seconds of penalty killing. It’s got to stop

Great post! Another option would be to keep him on the PK and put him on PP2, assuming PP1 would get the majority of the PP time.

 

[Captain Crunch]

That's really not true. How often do you think teams are abandoning high-traffic areas in front of the net to willingly let some of the best players in the game walk through? How often do you think other players do what you're suggesting?

Trying to force your way through highly-defended areas is usually not the first option for anybody, especially a playmaker, but when it's the best option, Marner has shown an ability to beat defenders, move into high-traffic areas, and generate high danger opportunities for himself and others, even against some of the best defensive teams and through some of the most difficult situations to do so.

How often has he done it when it matters most?

 

[IPS]

I was a huge fan... he was my favourite Leaf! I was going to get a Marner jersey for both my son and me. He played for the joy of the game in a way I hadn't seen in a long time... that is, until greed crushed it to atoms.

I'm sure part of him regrets the way it was handled. He will either become a hero and get a statue one day, and nobody will care about the contract... or he will be run out of town with torches and pitchforks. It may not be totally fair, but there is no longer any middle ground. He put himself into that position with his ridiculous greed... it didn't have to be that way. He could have been a lifelong Leaf and been a legend, and maybe he still will... but now he has to win over his detractors instead of having a whole city rolling out a red carpet in front of him.

Now if he can't deliver on the value of that contract, whether or not it's right, he will be unable to enjoy his home town for even a single second. Sucks for him, but that's the pressure of this city and the price of greed... he knew that growing up a fan, this is totally self-inflicted. Will be interesting to watch his path...

In Mitch's mind I'm sure he thought it would all blow over eventually, and the Leafs would have some playoff success and everybody would go back to loving him.

But now he's 0 goals in 17 playoff games and the fanbase seems to hate him even more with every passing season.

 

[Dayjobdave]

There is no question Mitch was dreadful in that playoff round. Oh eyes it wasn’t that he didn’t show up, it was that he pressed so hard he got the yips. (Which may actually be worse.)

I agree his agent really hurt him in this town, As he has for other players, but fools mocking him in the grocery store says way more about them than him

At some point it makes sense to also credit the Habs for literally superhuman effort and attention to detail on D. I think we beat that team nine out of ten series, but they beat the us and they showed the kind of effort required.

Hopefully Mitch had a great off season training and the chip on his shoulder gets directed at fixing his performance and not at pouting over idiot fans in the grocery store.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

There is no question Mitch was dreadful in that playoff round. Oh eyes it wasn’t that he didn’t show up, it was that he pressed so hard he got the yips. (Which may actually be worse.)

I agree his agent really hurt him in this town, As he has for other players, but fools mocking him in the grocery store says way more about them than him

At some point it makes sense to also credit the Habs for literally superhuman effort and attention to detail on D. I think we beat that team nine out of ten series, but they beat the us and they showed the kind of effort required.

Hopefully Mitch had a great off season training and the chip on his shoulder gets directed at fixing his performance and not at pouting over idiot fans in the grocery store.

My name is The Hanging Jowl and I endorse this post.

 

[Trapper]

Someone needs to go so here is the opportunity year to prove if it’s you or not.

You don’t pay 4 forwards half the Cap and lose your best D to UFA at 27.

Goodbye to someone.

We keep losing D, depth and goal for these 1 and done forward core. Enough.

 

[egd27]

Hopefully Mitch had a great off season training and the chip on his shoulder gets directed at fixing his performance and not at pouting over idiot fans in the grocery store.

I would imagine listening to criticism from the public happens daily to most high profile athletes. If he lets that get to him, he's in the wrong profession.

 

[PromisedLand]

In Mitch's mind I'm sure he thought it would all blow over eventually, and the Leafs would have some playoff success and everybody would go back to loving him.

But now he's 0 goals in 17 playoff games and the fanbase seems to hate him even more with every passing season.

0 PP goals entire season last year while getting most PP minutes. Think about it. how much you gotta SUCK and how much Matthews has had to carry you so you can get "beggar points" is amazing.

I used to be a huge marner fan; but his playoff performance, PP performance and more importantly his post game interviews especially in the playoffs really rubbed me the wrong way.

There is absolutely NO REASON for the 11 AAV guys to need another 11 AAV guys to perform; you put the three 11 AAV guys to run their lines if they cannot then you know they are just not good enough

If you are going to take a lion's share of the cap then you have to take the lion's share of on ice responsibilities and own up to your mistakes and don't act like you are gretzky and it was just bad luck.

 

[Dekes For Days]

So much writing, but no supportive evidence.

Unlike you, I've posted a ton of supporting evidence for my position actually.

Let me summarize your argument....

People can read my post. I don't need you misrepresenting what I say again.

How often has he done it when it matters most?

Quite a bit actually. These things just seem to not be remembered as well when it doesn't result in a goal.

 

[Captain Crunch]

Unlike you, I've posted a ton of supporting evidence for my position actually.

People can read my post. I don't need you misrepresenting what I say again.

Quite a bit actually. These things just seem to not be remembered as well when it doesn't result in a goal.

So how many rounds has he helped us get by in the playoffs?

 

[ZEBROA]

1.5 mill less and not nearly as many would care. They would be on Matthews or Tavares. He would be able to get that 1.5 in other ways and that mountain on his shoulders would weigh nothing.

 

[ToneDog]

1.5 mill less and not nearly as many would care. They would be on Matthews or Tavares. He would be able to get that 1.5 in other ways and that mountain on his shoulders would weigh nothing.

I wonder how many fewer fans would care if he signed the Leafs offer of 11x7 at the end of June and they did not drag the negotiations out through the summer. Paints him as a greedy ahole who wanted even more money. #Dumb.

 

[Racer88]

In Mitch's mind I'm sure he thought it would all blow over eventually, and the Leafs would have some playoff success and everybody would go back to loving him.

But now he's 0 goals in 17 playoff games and the fanbase seems to hate him even more with every passing season.

If he is hoping that, then he needs to work on his game amd his season ending press conference.

 

[Racer88]

I would imagine listening to criticism from the public happens daily to most high profile athletes. If he lets that get to him, he's in the wrong profession.

I’m guessing it doesn’t bother him because he thinks he is awesome and shoulders no responsibility for yet another epic Leaf collapse

 

[Racer88]

0 PP goals entire season last year while getting most PP minutes. Think about it. how much you gotta SUCK and how much Matthews has had to carry you so you can get "beggar points" is amazing.

I used to be a huge marner fan; but his playoff performance, PP performance and more importantly his post game interviews especially in the playoffs really rubbed me the wrong way.

There is absolutely NO REASON for the 11 AAV guys to need another 11 AAV guys to perform; you put the three 11 AAV guys to run their lines if they cannot then you know they are just not good enough

If you are going to take a lion's share of the cap then you have to take the lion's share of on ice responsibilities and own up to your mistakes and don't act like you are gretzky and it was just bad luck.

Well said……

 

[Racer88]

1.5 mill less and not nearly as many would care. They would be on Matthews or Tavares. He would be able to get that 1.5 in other ways and that mountain on his shoulders would weigh nothing.

3 million less and I would be a little easier on him.

 

[Joey Hoser]

1.5 mill less and not nearly as many would care. They would be on Matthews or Tavares. He would be able to get that 1.5 in other ways and that mountain on his shoulders would weigh nothing.

All over 1.5 million dollars.

Leafs fans suck.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Man the shade being thrown at Marner in this thread is surprising. Geez, he's still an elite talent that the Leafs are lucky to have. He's still only 23 I think? The guy can easily learn and improve. People were ready to write off McKinnon at one point. Not saying they're similar players but in your early 20s you still have plenty of room to improve. And his playoff disappointments could easily be blamed on bad coaching too. If the other team is smothering your best playmaker, you adjust don't you? I didn't see much of that from either Babcock or Keefe.

 

[Gary Nylund]

All over 1.5 million dollars.

Leafs fans suck.

Despite having mostly shitty teams and despite paying much higher prices than fans in any other city, Leaf fans continue to scoop up every ticket available for decade after decade. I can only imagine how terrible the players must feel to have fans who love the team so much.

 

[Racer88]

Man the shade being thrown at Marner in this thread is surprising. Geez, he's still an elite talent that the Leafs are lucky to have. He's still only 23 I think? The guy can easily learn and improve. People were ready to write off McKinnon at one point. Not saying they're similar players but in your early 20s you still have plenty of room to improve. And his playoff disappointments could easily be blamed on bad coaching too. If the other team is smothering your best playmaker, you adjust don't you? I didn't see much of that from either Babcock or Keefe.

What exactly is he elite at?
He is not relentless on the puck, he is not a fast skater, apparently he is not a goal scorer, he has disappointed the last 3 playoffs.
He hasn’t scored a PP goal in almost a year while getting top PP time.
I guess he is a good passer???
I watched most of the rest of the playoffs and there are many good passers that routinely make the passes that Marner makes.
I think he is a decent player in the right situations when there is no pressure but average the rest of the time.
I think in Toronto players get hyped way over their value often and unfortunately in this case he turned the hype into a major windfall with an experienced GM

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I think he might be in a situation where he can't win a lot of people over. The way he negotiated his contract built a lot of animosity that may never diminish.

The change in style of play to a defensive positioning all the time hasn’t helped the explosiveness of his game like the cheating offensively of the past had.
I wouldn’t mind it if Keefe implemented a few more stretch passes in to the game with Marner on the ice. You have to let Offense strive too. That balance may have been lost somewhere. Thing about contract is they were all RFA’s and could have been bridged instead and saved some coin for better bottom 6 players.
The players should get all they can but it’s up to the G.M to draw the line.
Who knows if we may have had more success with better depth because of more money for better depth players. Personally i still don’t like our bottom six right yet. Hopefully they are better than they look to me right now. It’s just a difficult time trying to put lines together that i like.
Mikheyev- Kampf - Gabriel is a 4 th line i would like to see in exibition games a coup,e times at least. I also think Spezza is a 3 rd liner not a 4 th liner. This guy just keeps competing. He must be working really hard in off seasons because he keeps the pace still really well.
I hope this roster surprises me because I’m not overly optimistic we will get much secondary scoring again this year. I hope we do, just not seeing it. If it is made up for with great forchecking and shut down play thats ok too.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

What exactly is he elite at?
He is not relentless on the puck, he is not a fast skater, apparently he is not a goal scorer, he has disappointed the last 3 playoffs.
He hasn’t scored a PP goal in almost a year while getting top PP time.
I guess he is a good passer???
I watched most of the rest of the playoffs and there are many good passers that routinely make the passes that Marner makes.
I think he is a decent player in the right situations when there is no pressure but average the rest of the time.
I think in Toronto players get hyped way over their value often and unfortunately in this case he turned the hype into a major windfall with an experienced GM

No man there aren’t many that pass like Marner actually. His vision is elite and he is one of the best in the game. It’s not debatable. You can’t say he is a average passer if that’s what you are leading towards. Jeez i would never agree. I will leave it at that because it’s a ocean between our opinion of his passing game if you really do think he is just average.

 

[Racer88]

No man there aren’t many that pass like Marner actually. His vision is elite and he is one of the best in the game. It’s not debatable. You can’t say he is a average passer if that’s what you are leading towards. Jeez i would never agree. I will leave it at that because it’s a ocean between our opinion of his passing game if you really do think he is just average.

I think he is better then average passer but There are also other great passers that don’t make 11 million. I’m not sure if that is enough for what he costs us.
I just think that he has too many holes for the pay cheque

 

[egd27]

I think he is better then average passer but There are also other great passers that don’t make 11 million. I’m not sure if that is enough for what he costs us.
I just think that he has too many holes for the pay cheque

Put him on a line without an $11m centre. If he can continue to put up PPG+ numbers, then perhaps he is worth the contract.