Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Dreakmur]

Marner moves into high-danger, high-traffic areas quite a bit when other options have been cut off. It would seem that people only think otherwise because the goals haven't gone in.

He goes into high traffic areas when there's no traffic there. Looking at a heat map doesn't really tell you what happened....

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Marner moves into high-danger, high-traffic areas quite a bit when other options have been cut off. It would seem that people only think otherwise because the goals haven't gone in.

What do you mean the goals haven’t gone in, he got 20 in a short season last year. Thats darn good scoring. There is a predictable nature to his play now that is defendable. To much of the same and overused by his coach. 20 minutes a game from him and all of our first 2 lines is plenty. The over use is definitely a issue right now and since Keefe came on board.
These set lines top 6 aren’t progressive either.

 

[Stephen]

Marner moves into high-danger, high-traffic areas quite a bit when other options have been cut off. It would seem that people only think otherwise because the goals haven't gone in.

Marner tends to drift into those areas like the high slot or side of the net when the coast is clear, but if the opponent is boxing out, he's going to stay boxed out.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Marner tends to drift into those areas like the high slot or side of the net when the coast is clear, but if the opponent is boxing out, he's going to stay boxed out.

Reverse of that is when he is blowing the zone with speed and catching defenses napping on a stretch pass he drives the net hard and is very effective.
He is not strong enough to break coverage from a standing start. So how does a coach utilize his strengths and weaknesses. Keefe has come up with play him on the penalty kill so far. Not a ideal thought process I’m thinking.
Marner is better when he is not the defensive conciseness of the team. Just sayin

 

[Stephen]

Reverse of that is when he is blowing the zone with speed and catching defenses napping on a stretch pass he drives the net hard and is very effective.
He is not strong enough to break coverage from a standing start. So how does a coach utilize his strengths and weaknesses. Keefe has come up with play him on the penalty kill so far. Not a ideal thought process I’m thinking.
Marner is better when he is not the defensive conciseness of the team. Just sayin

I would want to put Marner on a third scoring line with Nylander potentially and let opponents spread out their defensive resources between covering a Matthews unit, a Tavares unit or Marner and Nylander. Give him different looks and let the opposition go back to the drawing board re: defense vs Toronto. Maybe we score less in total but we spread it out on different lines and at less predictable times.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I would want to put Marner on a third scoring line with Nylander potentially and let opponents spread out their defensive resources between covering a Matthews unit, a Tavares unit or Marner and Nylander. Give him different looks and let the opposition go back to the drawing board re: defense vs Toronto. Maybe we score less in total but we spread it out on different lines and at less predictable times.

I love thinking outside the box like this that is potentially very good thinking. It’s brilliant and I don’t think anyone else has ever said this.
Willy wins the Rocket kidding
Who’s their Left Winger?

 

[Gabriel426]

It's not unreasonable to expect Marner to overcome these forwards and defensemen, and he largely has over the past couple years. A hot goalie is a bit more tricky, as goaltenders have such massive individual impact on the game. It's reasonable to expect production (probably more than what we've gotten), but it's unreasonable to expect production to not be impacted to some extent. Especially when neither of a playmaker's conversion options are converting either. It doesn't mean he sucks, it doesn't mean he doesn't care or isn't trying, and it doesn't even necessarily mean he's doing worse than somebody with higher raw production in an easier situation.

Opposing playoff teams will play their best defensemen against Marner, but not all teams will be high-end defensive teams, with defensemen like that, and defensive forwards like that, getting top-tier goaltending in low special teams series. While it may not seem like it given what we've experienced lately, that's actually quite rare, and a lot of top-tier players struggle to produce in those scenarios.

I understand people being upset, and I understand Marner being a target of criticism, but the overwhelming majority of the posts are going way over the top, ignoring important context, and not even addressing what he actually struggled at.

Sure do. I recommend reading what I post, instead of trying to put words in my mouth.

Good post.
The thing is, you can't expect to play easier teams in the playoffs or play favourable matchups. The goal is to win the Cup, which means beating FOUR teams. You are destined to run into teams, as you described, with great Dmen, Great Defensive forwards and great goalies. I think the Habs was the last place team in all playoffs last year, you just can't find a better opponent than that.
It is time for Marner, AM and others to start realizing they need to be a lot better as a group to win the Cup. Does that means they suck or useless now, NO. But they are still far from being the team to Win the Cup. Avs is miles ahead of us and they are just a playoff round better than us, it just goes to show how far off the current Leafs is from the Cup.
You mentioned about Marner being a playmaker and it is not his fault if his linemates can't convert, although that is true, but how about scoring goals himself? He doesn't play goalie, he is allow to score goals.

I think most criticisms on Marner are pointing at pretty much the same thing. His shots, his engagements(even Keefe admit he didn't start on time or he would not have Simmonds starts the game with Hyman and AM), being too fancy with his plays. Those are fair criticisms on Marner's game.

 

[Racer88]

Good teams close, they don't go 0-7 with a chance to win a series. That's beyond "bad luck", especially when they consistently have to come from behind due to poor starts.

In both recent post seasons Marner admitted to not being engaged from the start.

They aren't learning, it's just groundhog day over and over.

This is why he deserves the criticism being levelled on him.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Most wouldn’t know it but Marner is my favourite player. Just want to put that out there. I do not blindly favour him or criticize him.
Everyone has their own idea of him. Mine is predominantly that he is being over used by Keefe and needs minimum 18 or 19 minutes per game and Maximum 21 or 22 per game depending obviously on circumstances.
That means zero penalty killing unless it is the last seconds of penalty killing. It’s got to stop

 

[Wafflewhipper]

This is why he deserves the criticism being levelled on him.

Yep and so do the test of them

 

[Wafflewhipper]

He goes into high traffic areas when there's no traffic there. Looking at a heat map doesn't really tell you what happened....

He goes there off a rush then retreats to the wall consistently yes. Two years now his presence on the ice has diminished and his game has slid. He needs to push his game in to the scoring areas much much harder and consistently.
People like to compare him to Kane but Kane drives the net much better and definitely more consistently. Marners game is not ideal right now and Keefe is part of the problem.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Marner and Matthews are complete choke artists the last four playoff series. Matthews has Zero goals in elimination game 5’s or 7’ too.
Basically these two disappeared every playoff elimination game except for the Washington series when they were roomies basically. Ever since they were depended on they have failed for 4 years running.
That’s some serious sample size suggesting this choke label for our top players.

 

[Dekes For Days]

He goes into high traffic areas when there's no traffic there.

Marner tends to drift into those areas like the high slot or side of the net when the coast is clear, but if the opponent is boxing out, he's going to stay boxed out.

That's really not true. How often do you think teams are abandoning high-traffic areas in front of the net to willingly let some of the best players in the game walk through? How often do you think other players do what you're suggesting?

Trying to force your way through highly-defended areas is usually not the first option for anybody, especially a playmaker, but when it's the best option, Marner has shown an ability to beat defenders, move into high-traffic areas, and generate high danger opportunities for himself and others, even against some of the best defensive teams and through some of the most difficult situations to do so.

 

[Dreakmur]

That's really not true. How often do you think teams are abandoning high-traffic areas in front of the net to willingly let some of the best players in the game walk through? How often do you think other players do what you're suggesting?

Trying to force your way through highly-defended areas is usually not the first option for anybody, especially a playmaker, but when it's the best option, Marner has shown an ability to beat defenders, move into high-traffic areas, and generate high danger opportunities for himself and others, even against some of the best defensive teams and through some of the most difficult situations to do so.

That's exactly what they do. Toronto passes around the outside, hoping the other teams breaks down and chases. Once they've left a hole in the middle, the Leafs attack that hole. It's not even a bad strategy, but if it's your only move - and it is for Toronto - then teams can pretty easily adjust... which they do in the playoffs.

Toronto needs to diversify their attack. They need to drive to scoring areas. That's how you create havoc, which creates those "luck" goals that keep going in on Toronto, and they never seem to get.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That's exactly what they do. Toronto passes around the outside, hoping the other teams breaks down and chases. Once they've left a hole in the middle, the Leafs attack that hole. It's not even a bad strategy, but if it's your only move - and it is for Toronto - then teams can pretty easily adjust... which they do in the playoffs.

That is not Toronto's only move, and no, the offense being lower in the playoffs has been a struggle with conversion, not offensive generation.

 

[Dreakmur]

That is not Toronto's only move, and no, the offense being lower in the playoffs has been a struggle with conversion, not offensive generation.

What's their other move?

Their lack of conversion is a result of them not creating the havoc I mentioned. Shots with no traffic, even from prime scoring areas aren't really that dangerous.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

That is not Toronto's only move, and no, the offense being lower in the playoffs has been a struggle with conversion, not offensive generation.

Just call a choke a choke. A conversion struggle.

 

[Racer88]

Yep and so do the test of them

Ya no shortage of blame to go around

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Ya no shortage of blame to go around

Matthews and Marner have 1 goal between them in 5 elimination games in the playoffs. That single goal was Matthews 5 years ago in the Washington series Last 4 elimination games Zero goals from them. Not exactly worth their money in the playoffs are they. That’s a pretty useless $23,000,000 combined. They own the chokers label pretty well.
Matthews being the goal scorer is even more a choker with 3 goals his last 12 games. I guess he can’t find the gumption to elevate his game when the going gets tough eh Auston Matthews Career Playoffs Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com
He can win all the rockets and it won’t matter. He will wear the choker label until he picks up his game in big games

 

[Bomber0104]

What's their other move?

Their lack of conversion is a result of them not creating the havoc I mentioned. Shots with no traffic, even from prime scoring areas aren't really that dangerous.

But but but... the Natural Stat Trick site said they are HIGH danger?

Is that not enough for you?!!?!

 

[Bomber0104]

That's exactly what they do. Toronto passes around the outside, hoping the other teams breaks down and chases. Once they've left a hole in the middle, the Leafs attack that hole. It's not even a bad strategy, but if it's your only move - and it is for Toronto - then teams can pretty easily adjust... which they do in the playoffs.

Toronto needs to diversify their attack. They need to drive to scoring areas. That's how you create havoc, which creates those "luck" goals that keep going in on Toronto, and they never seem to get.

Montreal and Columbus perfectly exploited this.

Makes their goalies look like heroes according to the blog sites...

And Toronto players, "unlucky" year after year after year...

 

[ZEBROA]

When your best point producers Matthews and Marner struggle like they have, they need help. The coach should do all in his power to get the stars going. Thats not what we have seen. If that dont work then its all on the players.

 

[Racer88]

Matthews and Marner have 1 goal between them in 5 elimination games in the playoffs. That single goal was Matthews 5 years ago in the washing series. Last 4 elimination games Zero goals from them. Not exactly worth their money in the playoffs are they. That’s a pretty useless $23,000,000 combined. They own the chokers label pretty well.
Matthews being the goal scorer is even more a choker with 3 goals his last 12 games. I guess he can’t find the gumption to elevate his game when the going gets tough eh Auston Matthews Career Playoffs Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com
He can win all the rockets and it won’t matter. He will wear the choker label until he picks up his game in big games

I agree 100%. These 2 are simply not worth their money and should never have been given those contracts

 

[koyvoo]

The problem is that people are comparing Matthews playoff effort/performance vs Marner’s and convincing themselves that since he was marginally better than Marner, it must be acceptable.

Why is Marner’s legendarily bad performance the measuring stick? So it’s easier to convince ourselves that our golden boy isn’t a gutless fairy himself?

The measuring stick should be past playoff performances by superstars through tour the leagues history who game realer their games even greater levels in the playoffs. Why isn’t that the measuring stick? Matthews has struggled to play up to his abilities and standards when the games matter and opponents give max effort every shift. He’s just as much a loser as is Marner.

 

[killer1980]

Marner is gutless. Just a pretty boy who keeps his face clean so he can do bad commercials. He and the rest of the Dubas Disasters bail during crunch time. Btw, I exclude Tavares because he's been getting beat up pretty good. He needs a better supporting cast in the 2nd season.