Mitch Marner Discussion Continued

[Gary Nylund]

It must be hard for the Marnerdude to know that nothing he does in the regular season will be enough. Not even a goal per game. If he dont contribute more in the playoffs, nobody cares.
Would be nice with that kind of money but im not envious of the situation he put himself in.

Welcome to North American Pro Sports.

 

[Dreakmur]

I've seen every single game of Marner's NHL career. None of it is true.

So you have watched every game he’s played and think he’s a fast skater and great shooter?

 

[ACC1224]

I wonder if people will give the Marner bashing a rest during the season and save the complaints for playoff time should they qualify?

 

[Racer88]

I wonder if people will give the Marner bashing a rest during the season and save the complaints for playoff time should they qualify?

It will be interesting to see if he has improved his shot, his speed or his strength in the off season.
I will him a fair shot to start the season and adjust my insanity level as required

 

[Sypher04]

I wonder if people will give the Marner bashing a rest during the season and save the complaints for playoff time should they qualify?

Probably not. This seems to be how all our stars get treated by so many and it's frustrating. I mean, they've obviously warranted some criticism, but it's been a lot, and the way people talk here you'd think they have been garbage from the moment they entered the league

 

[Dekes For Days]

So you have watched every game he’s played and think he’s a fast skater and great shooter?

Do you think the only alternatives to "no straight line speed" and "poor shot" are "fast skater" and "great shooter"?

 

[Stephen]

If anything, acknowledging the issues only seems to be a problem because ignoring external factor discrepancies (which are quite significant in the playoffs) is more "unfavourable" to Marner.

I'm not really sure what "external factor discrepancies" you are referring to re: Marner that would form the basis for his continued playoff performance and raw points output, but shouldn't there be an expectation that he overcomes those factors? Is there an expectation he will overcome those factors in the coming years?

 

[Stephen]

I wonder if people will give the Marner bashing a rest during the season and save the complaints for playoff time should they qualify?

It will depend on whether or not Marner has entered that Phaneuf/Kessel point of no return with Leafs fans. In the past, that lack of success on the ice multiplied by defiant attitude off of it (fighting with the media, Salutegate) is basically the end of the relationship. But I can see things going to ways:

Scenario 1, I can see a rehabilitated the Marner/Leafs public image happening as fans return to games in real life, so if the team is good and the stats are flowing you'll have a honeymoon period, try to build positive momentum towards the playoffs.

Scenario 2, I can see the relationship getting worse if that All or Nothing documentary doesn't look on the core. Team stumbles along the way and things just go off the rails en route to another early exit.

 

[Mess]

I'm not really sure what "external factor discrepancies" you are referring to re: Marner that would form the basis for his continued playoff performance and raw points output, but shouldn't there be an expectation that he overcomes those factors? Is there an expectation he will overcome those factors in the coming years?

Playing on the perimeter and avoiding physical contact is an internal not external issue to overcome.

Unfortunately this is more a playoff style problem, that doesn't impact the regular season performance.

Hard to imagine that Marner suddenly becomes Brayden Point stylistically and a fearlessly battles in traffic to become successful as in general as the saying goes a leopard never chances its spots. In Marner's case its almost as if his linemates statistically have to increase their impact and production to drive up Marner's playmaking totals.

If Matthews goes from scoring 1 goal to 5 goals in a series win and Ritchie is crashing the net and banging in pucks in traffic, then Marner's shortcomings are masked behind team success even if he doesn't change his own game to match the current situation. If Leafs are winning then there is no need to find flaws with players games as that is more concerning only when the team is losing.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm not really sure what "external factor discrepancies" you are referring to re: Marner that would form the basis for his continued playoff performance and raw points output, but shouldn't there be an expectation that he overcomes those factors? Is there an expectation he will overcome those factors in the coming years?

Fact is, these past few playoffs have featured some of the hardest possible situations to produce.

They've gone up against teams who put up some of the best defensive results in the league, and those results probably undervalue them defensively since all of those teams were missing their #1D for part of that season (but not the playoffs).
The defensemen he played the most against? McAvoy, Chara, and Weber. Not to mention Jones-Werenski against Columbus - a pairing that now costs over 19m. A collection of some of the best and most physically imposing defensemen in the league.
The forwards he played the most against? Bergeron, Danault, and Marchand - widely considered some of the best defensive forwards in the league.
The goalies he has faced? #1, #2, and #3 in playoff save percentage, among all opposing goalies who have played more than one series over that time. A collection of Vezina winners and playoff record holders (obtained in the same playoffs).
High PP time to boost the stats? Nope, Toronto is near the bottom of the league in PP opportunities over that time.
Not to mention that Marner got to play with an injured Hyman in two of the years, and an injured Matthews this year.

It's not unusual for these things to lead to lower playoff production, especially for a 21-23 year old. Heck, we saw every single star, regardless of age, post underwhelming production against Montreal this year.

Is it valid as a fan to want to see more conversion out of your top players? Yeah.
Is it valid to ignore these and other factors (and what the players have done over much more representative samples) to define players by playoff production compared across teams in the same way as regular season production? No.

And there's absolutely no justification for some of the comments that have been made about Marner in this and other threads, that are not only wrong, but pretty disgusting.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Playing on the perimeter and avoiding physical contact is an internal not external issue to overcome.

Except neither of these things apply to Marner or his recent playoff conversion struggles.

 

[Gabriel426]

I wonder if people will give the Marner bashing a rest during the season and save the complaints for playoff time should they qualify?

I think it will be something like, "Marner did great with 2 goals and 2 points last game, then some would say, Lets see what he does in the playoffs...."
But if Marner struggles coming out, it will be really toxic here esp if the Leafs cant get the Ws.

 

[Stephen]

Fact is, these past few playoffs have featured some of the hardest possible situations to produce.

They've gone up against teams who put up some of the best defensive results in the league, and those results probably undervalue them defensively since all of those teams were missing their #1D for part of that season (but not the playoffs).
The defensemen he played the most against? McAvoy, Chara, and Weber. Not to mention Jones-Werenski against Columbus - a pairing that now costs over 19m. A collection of some of the best and most physically imposing defensemen in the league.
The forwards he played the most against? Bergeron, Danault, and Marchand - widely considered some of the best defensive forwards in the league.
The goalies he has faced? #1, #2, and #3 in playoff save percentage, among all opposing goalies who have played more than one series over that time. A collection of Vezina winners and playoff record holders (obtained in the same playoffs).
High PP time to boost the stats? Nope, Toronto is near the bottom of the league in PP opportunities over that time.
Not to mention that Marner got to play with an injured Hyman in two of the years, and an injured Matthews this year.

It's not unusual for these things to lead to lower playoff production, especially for a 21-23 year old. Heck, we saw every single star, regardless of age, post underwhelming production against Montreal this year.

Is it valid as a fan to want to see more conversion out of your top players? Yeah.
Is it valid to ignore these and other factors (and what the players have done over much more representative samples) to define players by playoff production compared across teams in the same way as regular season production? No.

And there's absolutely no justification for some of the comments that have been made about Marner in this and other threads, that are not only wrong, but pretty disgusting.

There's absolutely nothing about playing Boston (Chara, McAvoy, whomever), Montreal (Price, Weber, Danault, whomever) or Columbus (Werenski, Jones, whomever) that is remarkable when it comes to what the Leafs and Marner have experienced. Great teams beat great teams and great players have to beat great players... and going into those series we got our fair share of hype about how Toronto was the superior team with the superior players.

This lack of uniqueness to what the Leafs have faced in the playoffs is especially obvious when you look at guys like Point, Barzal and Aho, whose teams have played and beaten teams like Boston, Columbus and Montreal in the same Eastern Conference playoff milieu over the past 2-3 years.

In terms of criticism and what you feel is right, this ultimately boils down to is how invested an individual fan is in an individual player. For some, maybe they feel very connected to Marner and his personal success and Leafs success is closely linked. Maybe they think he deserves extra benefit of the doubt and feel protective of the player and will shelter them from negative public perception. I've certainly felt that way about my personal favorites.

For other fans, maybe that connection isn't there and it's more of a transactional and disposable relationship. If we are honest, how many Leafs fans really cared about a Jason Blake or a Francois Beauchemin if they weren't doing their job properly? Between those two extremes what you'll a whole range of subjective opinions about Marner.

 

[Gabriel426]

Fact is, these past few playoffs have featured some of the hardest possible situations to produce.

They've gone up against teams who put up some of the best defensive results in the league, and those results probably undervalue them defensively since all of those teams were missing their #1D for part of that season (but not the playoffs).
The defensemen he played the most against? McAvoy, Chara, and Weber. Not to mention Jones-Werenski against Columbus - a pairing that now costs over 19m. A collection of some of the best and most physically imposing defensemen in the league.
The forwards he played the most against? Bergeron, Danault, and Marchand - widely considered some of the best defensive forwards in the league.
The goalies he has faced? #1, #2, and #3 in playoff save percentage, among all opposing goalies who have played more than one series over that time. A collection of Vezina winners and playoff record holders (obtained in the same playoffs).
High PP time to boost the stats? Nope, Toronto is near the bottom of the league in PP opportunities over that time.
Not to mention that Marner got to play with an injured Hyman in two of the years, and an injured Matthews this year.

It's not unusual for these things to lead to lower playoff production, especially for a 21-23 year old. Heck, we saw every single star, regardless of age, post underwhelming production against Montreal this year.

Is it valid as a fan to want to see more conversion out of your top players? Yeah.
Is it valid to ignore these and other factors (and what the players have done over much more representative samples) to define players by playoff production compared across teams in the same way as regular season production? No.

And there's absolutely no justification for some of the comments that have been made about Marner in this and other threads, that are not only wrong, but pretty disgusting.

You made some good fair points, but at the same time, is it really unreasonable to expect a TOP 10 players(by your standard), the 4th leading pts scorer(regular season) to over come these goalies and dmen pairings in the playoffs?
Opposing teams will always play their best defensive players against Leafs most dangerous players. It is not like Marner is a rookie, bc he should expect to play against top Dmen night in and night out.
Like the rest of the team, Marner didn't get the job done and deserve criticism. As of today, Marner have not produce in the past three playoffs. It is like the quote in the movie THE ROCK, it goes something along the line of losers say they tried their best while the Prom King is ***king the Prom Queen. I want Marner to be the Prom King but sofar, as much as I hate to say it, he is a loser just like the rest of the team(MGT and players). Maybe he will do well starting this playoffs or maybe he is just not as good as we think he is and it is the external factors(playing with AM, JT and JVR) that made him better than he is or he will pull a Mack and just start taking over the league and be the driver of his line and team shift in and shift out.

 

[Dreakmur]

Do you think the only alternatives to "no straight line speed" and "poor shot" are "fast skater" and "great shooter"?

Do you ever actually post an opinion?

 

[Curt]

Fact is, these past few playoffs have featured some of the hardest possible situations to produce.

They've gone up against teams who put up some of the best defensive results in the league, and those results probably undervalue them defensively since all of those teams were missing their #1D for part of that season (but not the playoffs).
The defensemen he played the most against? McAvoy, Chara, and Weber. Not to mention Jones-Werenski against Columbus - a pairing that now costs over 19m. A collection of some of the best and most physically imposing defensemen in the league.
The forwards he played the most against? Bergeron, Danault, and Marchand - widely considered some of the best defensive forwards in the league.
The goalies he has faced? #1, #2, and #3 in playoff save percentage, among all opposing goalies who have played more than one series over that time. A collection of Vezina winners and playoff record holders (obtained in the same playoffs).
High PP time to boost the stats? Nope, Toronto is near the bottom of the league in PP opportunities over that time.
Not to mention that Marner got to play with an injured Hyman in two of the years, and an injured Matthews this year.

It's not unusual for these things to lead to lower playoff production, especially for a 21-23 year old. Heck, we saw every single star, regardless of age, post underwhelming production against Montreal this year.

Is it valid as a fan to want to see more conversion out of your top players? Yeah.
Is it valid to ignore these and other factors (and what the players have done over much more representative samples) to define players by playoff production compared across teams in the same way as regular season production? No.

And there's absolutely no justification for some of the comments that have been made about Marner in this and other threads, that are not only wrong, but pretty disgusting.

Hardest situations to produce in? As in the jackets and habs? We got the easiest matchups the last 2 playoffs and he has done nothing except played scared.

[MOD]

 

[keonsbitterness]

If anything, acknowledging the issues only seems to be a problem because ignoring external factor discrepancies (which are quite significant in the playoffs) is more "unfavourable" to Marner.

External factor discrepancies -- that's your best one yet.

There's absolutely nothing about playing Boston (Chara, McAvoy, whomever), Montreal (Price, Weber, Danault, whomever) or Columbus (Werenski, Jones, whomever) that is remarkable when it comes to what the Leafs and Marner have experienced. Great teams beat great teams and great players have to beat great players... and going into those series we got our fair share of hype about how Toronto was the superior team with the superior players.

This lack of uniqueness to what the Leafs have faced in the playoffs is especially obvious when you look at guys like Point, Barzal and Aho, whose teams have played and beaten teams like Boston, Columbus and Montreal in the same Eastern Conference playoff milieu over the past 2-3 years.

In terms of criticism and what you feel is right, this ultimately boils down to is how invested an individual fan is in an individual player. For some, maybe they feel very connected to Marner and his personal success and Leafs success is closely linked. Maybe they think he deserves extra benefit of the doubt and feel protective of the player and will shelter them from negative public perception. I've certainly felt that way about my personal favorites.

For other fans, maybe that connection isn't there and it's more of a transactional and disposable relationship. If we are honest, how many Leafs fans really cared about a Jason Blake or a Francois Beauchemin if they weren't doing their job properly? Between those two extremes what you'll a whole range of subjective opinions about Marner.

Good post.

[MOD]

 

[Dekes For Days]

Great teams beat great teams and great players have to beat great players... and going into those series we got our fair share of hype about how Toronto was the superior team with the superior players.

We were not the superior team in all of those series, before even factoring in injuries/suspensions, and we're not talking about overall team quality anyway; we're talking about ability to limit an individual's production. How Columbus is offensively really has no relevance to that, but the fact that they were the best defensive team in the league that year, despite missing their #1D for a significant portion, is very relevant.

Marner has faced an extremely unique situation over the past few years, where his only playoff games have consisted of everything that can make production harder happening at once. The funny thing is, Marner has actually largely overcome those factors and outperformed the skaters he has faced to generate opportunities, but goaltending has such a massive individual influence on the game. I'm not sure why there's such a refusal to acknowledge the level of goaltending we've faced over the past few years, when it's, quite frankly, obvious and undeniable.

It's fair to want to see more, but it's important to actually understand what's happening, and why. There is a lot that factors into playoff point production. You can't just compare across teams in the same way as regular season points, while ignoring the differences in what they've experienced.

This lack of uniqueness to what the Leafs have faced in the playoffs is especially obvious when you look at guys like Point, Barzal and Aho, whose teams have played and beaten teams like Boston, Columbus and Montreal in the same Eastern Conference playoff milieu over the past 2-3 years.

Not sure why you mentioned Barzal. He didn't play any of the same teams in the same years, and his playoff resume in general is nothing special. The only same team Aho played was 2018-2019 Boston, and he put up 3 points in 4 games. Again, nothing special about that or his playoff resume.

Point has done a bit better, though how much of that is because of him and how much of that is because of Kucherov is very much up for question. He finished strong against 2019-2020 Columbus when their goaltending collapsed, but he also had just 3 assists in 5 games against Montreal this year (even though Price's play had dropped off quite a bit by then), so it's not like he's immune either.

Connor? 3 points in 4 games.
Pacioretty? 3 points in 6 games.
Ehlers? 1 point in 4 games.
Dubois? 1 point in 4 games.
Stamkos? 1 point in 5 games.
Wheeler? 0 points in 4 games.
Scheifele? 0 points in 1 game.
Stone? 0 points in 6 games.

It's not like Marner was alone in this impact.

In terms of criticism and what you feel is right, this ultimately boils down to is how invested an individual fan is in an individual player.

Insulting players and making false statements about them is never right. Has nothing to do with "investment" in the player.

 

[Fogelhund]

Marner is an absolute stud of a forward, one of the top such players in the league.... in the regular season. He's over PPG regular season, but 0.78 PPG in the playoffs. The expectations for him, are, and should be to elevate that game in the playoffs. He is paid like an MVP level player, and should be expected to perform like one.

I don't think anyone can disagree with this, and I doubt anyone here would argue that his playoff performances have been anything but disappointing.

Our best chances for playoff success, are if a player such as Marner, can figure out how to turn his regular season prowess, into playoff prowess. He's still young, and clearly hasn't figured out the playoffs, is trying too hard, or something... none of us really know what the real problem is. That is a major challenge for this team, more than anything else, trying to get Marner to succeed in the playoffs. Coaching, mental coaching, whatever it takes, he's a key guy, who can make a major difference in our success... or failure. It's too soon to give up on him yet, and clearly being a player in Toronto brings with it this microscope... but if you as a fan want this team to succeed... you want to cheer for Marner being a key positive playoff player...

That doesn't mean ignoring that he's a big reason for us not being successful so far... he is... but if you want this team to succeed, Marner succeeding will be a big reason for this.

 

[Dekes For Days]

You made some good fair points, but at the same time, is it really unreasonable to expect a TOP 10 players(by your standard), the 4th leading pts scorer(regular season) to over come these goalies and dmen pairings in the playoffs?

It's not unreasonable to expect Marner to overcome these forwards and defensemen, and he largely has over the past couple years. A hot goalie is a bit more tricky, as goaltenders have such massive individual impact on the game. It's reasonable to expect production (probably more than what we've gotten), but it's unreasonable to expect production to not be impacted to some extent. Especially when neither of a playmaker's conversion options are converting either. It doesn't mean he sucks, it doesn't mean he doesn't care or isn't trying, and it doesn't even necessarily mean he's doing worse than somebody with higher raw production in an easier situation.

Opposing teams will always play their best defensive players against Leafs most dangerous players.

Opposing playoff teams will play their best defensemen against Marner, but not all teams will be high-end defensive teams, with defensemen like that, and defensive forwards like that, getting top-tier goaltending in low special teams series. While it may not seem like it given what we've experienced lately, that's actually quite rare, and a lot of top-tier players struggle to produce in those scenarios.

Like the rest of the team, Marner didn't get the job done and deserve criticism.

I understand people being upset, and I understand Marner being a target of criticism, but the overwhelming majority of the posts are going way over the top, ignoring important context, and not even addressing what he actually struggled at.

Do you ever actually post an opinion?

Sure do. I recommend reading what I post, instead of trying to put words in my mouth.

 

[IPS]

Point has done a bit better, though how much of that is because of him and how much of that is because of Kucherov is very much up for question. He finished strong against 2019-2020 Columbus when their goaltending collapsed, but he also had just 3 assists in 5 games against Montreal this year (even though Price's play had dropped off quite a bit by then), so it's not like he's immune either.

Point has been drastically superior to Marner in the playoffs against tougher competition. It's ok to admit it buddy.

 

[Stephen]

We were not the superior team in all of those series, before even factoring in injuries/suspensions, and we're not talking about overall team quality anyway; we're talking about ability to limit an individual's production. How Columbus is offensively really has no relevance to that, but the fact that they were the best defensive team in the league that year, despite missing their #1D for a significant portion, is very relevant.

Marner has faced an extremely unique situation over the past few years, where his only playoff games have consisted of everything that can make production harder happening at once. The funny thing is, Marner has actually largely overcome those factors and outperformed the skaters he has faced to generate opportunities, but goaltending has such a massive individual influence on the game. I'm not sure why there's such a refusal to acknowledge the level of goaltending we've faced over the past few years, when it's, quite frankly, obvious and undeniable.

It's fair to want to see more, but it's important to actually understand what's happening, and why. There is a lot that factors into playoff point production. You can't just compare across teams in the same way as regular season points, while ignoring the differences in what they've experienced.

Not sure why you mentioned Barzal. He didn't play any of the same teams in the same years, and his playoff resume in general is nothing special. The only same team Aho played was 2018-2019 Boston, and he put up 3 points in 4 games. Again, nothing special about that or his playoff resume.

Point has done a bit better, though how much of that is because of him and how much of that is because of Kucherov is very much up for question. He finished strong against 2019-2020 Columbus when their goaltending collapsed, but he also had just 3 assists in 5 games against Montreal this year (even though Price's play had dropped off quite a bit by then), so it's not like he's immune either.

Connor? 3 points in 4 games.
Pacioretty? 3 points in 6 games.
Ehlers? 1 point in 4 games.
Dubois? 1 point in 4 games.
Stamkos? 1 point in 5 games.
Wheeler? 0 points in 4 games.
Scheifele? 0 points in 1 game.
Stone? 0 points in 6 games.

It's not like Marner was alone in this impact.

Insulting players and making false statements about them is never right. Has nothing to do with "investment" in the player.

I think it's fair to say that in hindsight those Leafs teams that played Boston, Columbus and Montreal were flawed teams that had things go against them which resulted in series losses. But that line of question would open up another can of worms for another day - namely, why are we building these great paper tiger teams that are no good?

Regarding the list of players who didn't put up points vs Montreal, Mitch Marner is paid more than every single one of them. So he should do more than them and their lack of production doesn't normalize Marner's.

I don't see the criticism leveled at Mitch Marner to be that much different than with a Dion Phaneuf or a Phil Kessel a few years ago. Highly paid core player whose contributions are not leading to team success tend to get a lot of heat from the peanut gallery. Even someone like Michael Hutchinson will get flack for not doing his job. But if someone happens to be a big fan of the player and emotionally invested they'll take that more personally.

 

[Racer88]

Do you think the only alternatives to "no straight line speed" and "poor shot" are "fast skater" and "great shooter"?

For 11 million per year he should be both a fast skater and have a great shot.
At 7.5 per year I would be ok with his current contribution to the team

 

[Dekes For Days]

why are we building these great paper tiger teams that are no good?

We're not. A team isn't "no good" just because they barely lose a playoff series, especially when they're facing even better teams, or are missing significant parts of the team that's been built. For the record, the only team to beat those teams after us were the Stanley Cup Champions in each year.

Regarding the list of players who didn't put up points vs Montreal, Mitch Marner is paid more than every single one of them.

His contract is irrelevant. We're discussing how external factors in the playoffs can influence production, and that list is a very good example of that.

I don't see the criticism leveled at Mitch Marner to be that much different than with a Dion Phaneuf or a Phil Kessel a few years ago.

The line has been crossed more when discussing Marner than those other two combined, and there was a lot more justified criticism for those two. Also, just because something happens more than once, it doesn't make it right. There's been a lot of comments that aren't even hockey-related; attacking him as a person.

 

[A1LeafNation]

How's Marners slapshot coming along, anyone know?