Salary Cap: Mitch Marner Contract Discussion Part VII | The Saga Continues

[TheDoldrums]

The two valuations are just so out of whack though.

A) Marner is not worth 11 million
B) Marner is worth 11 million plus 4 unprotected first round picks

There are no team-specific situations that can make up that difference, it's just crazy.

This is why I've always felt the Leafs were right to call the bluff on an offer sheet for Marner. Kappy and Johnsson were legit OS threats for a 2nd round pick. But no one is giving up 4 1st rounders to pay someone vastly more than his own team feels is reasonable.

 

[Faltorvo]

Highly highly unlikely. If Marner is offersheeted, you match it and trade him if need be later on your own terms. 4 firsts of unknown quality doesn't help us build a winner now

Not in my books, because you are ignoring who else we then have to ship out to make his offer sheet fit this season.

We already dumped PM and a 1rst rounder to make room for him,,how much more has to go?

Gimme 4 unprotected 1rsts and call me happy. I am confident in our ability to draft and develop players.

 

[Walshy7]

One thing this saga shows, the old narrative that Leaf fans would give homeboy Marner a pass, whilst ripping the foreign born Nylander, was pure bunk....as I said at the time. The vitriol towards Marner at the moment is exactly the same.

Personally, I blame management for botching the Big 3. Here we sit, not surprised at all.

I do agree, but not nylander levels yet but also marner hasn’t gone as far yet so at equivalent stages of negotiations I do agree vitriol is similar

I was one suggesting marner wouldn’t receive same vitriol. But it is noticeable more than a few of the posters ripping nylander are advocating paying marner whatever he wants. I won’t name names because I’m sick of arguing with them.

 

[Sypher04]

A) IMO Melanders lowered asking price was 1 million too high and 2 years term too short.
B) as it turned out, waiting that long to force his hand had terrible ramifications , 10 million in cap space chewed up on a player that had a absolutely GARBAGE season because and i quote so many Melander fans here, "because he missed so much time".

1) calling him melander makes you sound like a complete fool
2) look around, Nylander's deal is quickly becoming average or better
3) Nylander ask was too high, so we waited it out to lower it, and did, but somehow that is also a mistake. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Walshy7]

10.55 is not four 1sts. The cut off for four 1sts is $10,568,590.

Right but $10.55 is ok for marner we’d match that. Not great but at least not $11m. The cut off point we match you take the 41sts. 2x1sts, 2nd, 3rd you match

 

[Sypher04]

Not in my books, because you are ignoring who else we then have to ship out to make his offer sheet fit this season.

We already dumped PM and a 1rst rounder to make room for him,,how much more has to go?

Gimme 4 unprotected 1rsts and call me happy. I am confident in our ability to draft and develop players.

I've looked over the cap. We don't really NEED to dump anyone else, save for Brown who no one is going to lament. You lose him 10 times out of 10 to ensure you get the proper return for Mitch Marner.

Also I'd stop fixating on the unprotected part. The far more likely scenario is that those pics are mediocre. Marner moves the needle in a big way for a team with scoring needs and he's not going to sign an offer sheet with a team he doesn't believe he can win with.

This is all largely moot imo however as I still firmly believe he will sign here, not an offersheet.

 

[egd27]

For sure, there has to be a walk away point here. Talk to panarin, seems very unlikely though sounds like he wants Florida according to “insiders”. Talk to everyone not even as a tactic just as a smart thing to do. What if panarin says $10.5m/$11m will do me? You’d take that AND 4x 1sts over marner at $12 wouldn’t you?

I mean posters here yesterday ready to tear dubas’ Head off for trading one with marleau so 4 must be worth an incredible amount to those posters

I would be ok with losing Marner for Panarin and 4 unprotected 1sts.

The problem with the Panarin option is timing. IF another team offer sheets Marner, it will likely be due to the fact they lost out on Panarin or the other big name UFA's post July 1st

Therefore once the Leafs are faced with the decision of whether or not to match, the other options (Panarin, etc.) will no longer be available.

 

[ShaneFalco]

I've looked over the cap. We don't really NEED to dump anyone else, save for Brown who no one is going to lament. You lose him 10 times out of 10 to ensure you get the proper return for Mitch Marner.

This is all largely moot imo however as I still firmly believe he will sign here, not an offersheet.

Also I'd stop fixating on the unprotected part. The far more likely scenario is that those pics are mediocre. Marner moves the needle in a big way for a team with scoring needs and he's not going to sign an offer sheet with a team he doesn't believe he win with, if at all.

Who knows
Seems all about the money and highest bidder

 

[Cotton]

I can't honestly see this resolving in a way where either party is happy.

And I get the sense, at this point, that because of the way its played out Mitch will be booed even if they do sign him.

 

[Sypher04]

I would be ok with losing Marner for Panarin and 4 unprotected 1sts.

The problem with the Panarin option is timing. IF another team offer sheets Marner, it will likely be due to the fact they lost out on Panarin or the other big name UFA's post July 1st

Therefore once the Leafs are faced with the decision of whether or not to match, the other options (Panarin, etc.) will no longer be available.

Panarin won't be any cheaper though whole also being significantly older.

 

[Sypher04]

Who knows
Seems all about the money and highest bidder

I think it's about money and ego. Not necessarily Marner's ego himself, but his father projecting his through Mitch

 

[Faltorvo]

I've looked over the cap. We don't really NEED to dump anyone else, save for Brown who no one is going to lament. You lose him 10 times out of 10 to ensure you get the proper return for Mitch Marner.

Also I'd stop fixating on the unprotected part. The far more likely scenario is that those pics are mediocre. Marner moves the needle in a big way for a team with scoring needs and he's not going to sign an offer sheet with a team he doesn't believe he can win with.

This is all largely moot imo however as I still firmly believe he will sign here, not an offersheet.

I don't believe you when you say you know whats in MMs mind ,when it comes to signing with a winner. It looks to me like all that matters is the money. Ya know since he would be leaving a winner when he signs.

As for the 4 picks being mediocre, well you and i have a different opinion about our Draft and Dev system.

 

[Walshy7]

I would be ok with losing Marner for Panarin and 4 unprotected 1sts.

The problem with the Panarin option is timing. IF another team offer sheets Marner, it will likely be due to the fact they lost out on Panarin or the other big name UFA's post July 1st

Therefore once the Leafs are faced with the decision of whether or not to match, the other options (Panarin, etc.) will no longer be available.

I do agree, I should of put more emphasis on how unlikely it is.

But you never know, we can talk to panarin the week leading up to July 1 and I’m sure the marner camp won’t be able to contain themselves if another team agrees to offer sheet in that same week and they will bring it back to dubas as a last negotiating tactic so once they do and IF (huge if) panarin says I want to sign do it.

 

[Faltorvo]

Panarin won't be any cheaper though whole also being significantly older.

Panarin + 4 unprotected 1rsts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MM. believe me when i say, i could of added a lot more arrows to that.

 

[egd27]

Panarin won't be any cheaper though whole also being significantly older.

Yes....but that wasn't my point.

 

[egd27]

I do agree, I should of put more emphasis on how unlikely it is.

But you never know, we can talk to panarin the week leading up to July 1 and I’m sure the marner camp won’t be able to contain themselves if another team agrees to offer sheet in that same week and they will bring it back to dubas as a last negotiating tactic so once they do and IF (huge if) panarin says I want to sign do it.

Certainly no harm in talking to Panarin, but I still believe an offer sheet only comes after a team has lost out on snagging a major UFA.

 

[Mess]

You might want to take a look at Kucherov's career stats and compare the ages at which he was hitting different point thresholds. Marner at 21 performed like a 24-25 year old Kucherov. There is an argument to be made that Marner will be putting up more than what Kucherov is when he is 26 years old.

Sure, but all players don't have linear development..

JT makes $11 mil now as a UFA player, do you think all young centres like say Brayden Point who at age 22 put up 41 goals and 92 points this last season which is more points than Tavares has ever put up his entire career and not until he played with Marner did JT ever score > 40 goals.

So now by your position Point can claim I put up more points now already at 22 than JT ever did so I'm worth at least $11 now and much more when I'm 28 and in my UFA years.

Then Marner says "Hey I'm the same age as Point and I just put up 94 points which are more than him, & I directly set up 33 of JT's new career best 47 goals myself making him productive, at his current level" ..

So Marner > Point and Point at 22 > JT at age 22 & now and so if Tavares makes $11 mil that is why I deserve to be paid like Matthews and get my $11 mil also.

If Marner's agent Ferris is using this logic then it helps explain why Mitch is seeking $11 mil.

What's Dubas response to this position that wouldn't make Marner the highest paid winger in NHL history as his rebuttal?

 

[Sypher04]

I don't believe you when you say you know whats in MMs mind ,when it comes to signing with a winner. It looks to me like all that matters is the money. Ya know since he would be leaving a winner when he signs.

As for the 4 picks being mediocre, well you and i have a different opinion about our Draft and Dev system.

I like our scouts and development system but they aren't miracle workers. 4 draft picks of unknown quality for Marner is a bad trade off. It does absolutely nothing to help us compete for Cups. At best it helps us in a few years, but not as much as Marner would have. If Marner is leaving you need young, quality assets in return. Hence you match.

 

[Walshy7]

I like our scouts and development system but they aren't miracle workers. 4 draft picks of unknown quality for Marner is a bad trade off. It does absolutely nothing to help us compete for Cups. At best it helps us in a few years, but not as much as Marner would have. If Marner is leaving you need young, quality assets in return. Hence you match.

4 1sts on offer for a dman would get a hell of a dman. LA rebuilding maybe could get doughty or at least a couple of 1sts and a roster player/prospect type deal. The 4 1sts aren’t what people are valuing it’s what they can bring back in trade which is a lot

 

[ToneDog]

Who knows
Seems all about the money and highest bidder

I think ego plays into it. I cannot blame Marner for trying to get close to Matthews money because he has led the team in scoring the last two years. The problem is Dubas overpaid Matthews and now cannot afford to overpay Marner. Until the Marner camp understands this, it will be tough sledding for Dubas. Wille saw this coming and was concerned that he'd get paid much less that AM and MM and hence why he held firm.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Mitch Marner or Auston Matthews withholding their service hurts us even more than it hurts them.

And 4 1sts for Marner is a garbage return that no Leaf fan should he hoping for. There is absolutely no garauntee those picks are better than middling first rounders, that maybe 2-3 are nhlers if you're lucky and even if they are, odds are low they come close to the quality of the player we lost.

We match, even if we have to trade Marner next summer. He goes on our terms, not his. You need proven assets to ready to help this team if you're losing a 94 point, 22 year old

It's not 4 firsts. It's 4 firsts and $10M+ in cap space to target another (hopefully comparable) player.

 

[Goleafsgo95]

Give him 11M. You gave Matthews and Nylander top dollar, don't cheap out on Marner, who has been arguably as good as Matthews thus far. He does not deserve much less than Matthews. I assume they are figuring out how to scale the term/cap hit, but I doubt they can be far off because the Leafs have already set the precedent of giving their players top dollar so they can't just stop that with their hometown boy superstar.

 

[DopeyFish]

It's not 4 firsts. It's 4 firsts and $10M+ in cap space to target another (hopefully comparable) player.

Outside of panarin, there is no other comparable player and likely won't be next year either

I would not bank on any of this and still have signing Marner the absolute top priority

 

[ToneDog]

Marner to the Canes for Pesce, Foegele, Roy and (our) 1st before July 1st. Sign Tanev with the remaining cap savings. Are we a better team ???

 

[dubey]

How did we cave to Nylander? He called us last minute and lowered his ask to get the deal done. We have been told this.

I don't think there's anything wrong with 6.9 for Nylander given how money is being handed out around the NHL. It should never have gone that long to get signed though.

Everyone is going to forget about the Nylander contract the longer this Marner one drags. The rage is slowly building.