Salary Cap: Mitch Marner Contract Discussion Part VI | Marner Reportedly Turns Down 8 Year Term

[Duke Silver]

Nylander 6
Marner 8.5
Matthews 10

That's what I thought was fair.

You have to remember, these guys haven't won **** yet. Cant even pass 1st round

Just pulling numbers out of thin air, here?

 

[Cotton]

Why would I search Google just to be pointed back to awful HFBoards posts.

Googling what a period means, in reference to your run on paragraph, will direct you back to HFboards... gotcha.

Anyway, if you want to gobble Dubas' nob because you think he's re-creating the Cup winning Blackhawks by sinking 40M into 4 forwards you go ahead. This isn't the NBA, and just because Pittsburgh managed to win a couple Cups with generational talent doesn't mean our very un-generational talent can mimic those results.

 

[nuck]

If Marner signs a 11.16 x 6 year deal in Toronto I will be firmly on the fire Shanahan asap train.

That would be one of the worst overpayments in history for an RFA.

Willie is on Dubas but this would clearly be on Shanny who has been around a lot long than KD and has the final say. Would Carolina match a Leafs OS for Aho at $10M. Stingiest owner in the league so I think not.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Willie is on Dubas but this would clearly be on Shanny who has been around a lot long than KD and has the final say. Would Carolina match a Leafs OS for Aho at $10M. Stingiest owner in the league so I think not.

This is fair.

 

[Sypher04]

Nylander 6
Marner 8.5
Matthews 10

That's what I thought was fair.

You have to remember, these guys haven't won **** yet. Cant even pass 1st round

Even as best case scenario those would have been optimistic. Willy was never taking less than Ehlers plus inflation, and Matthews never less than Eichel plus inflation. Then nevermind that Matthews is a fair deal better than Eichel

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Not as far as I know. It was Bob or Dreger that said he believes that Marner’s camp believes Marner is worth every bit as Matthews.

When an insider says they “believe” it is not coming from insider information. They are just speculating how they think the Marner camp would be handling the negotiations.

That's fair. For me when I here Bob say it I assume he's at least spoken to someone very close to the situation, but you're right. We can't say with 100% certainty that his agent is demanding Matthews money. I'd hope they aren't that delusional

 

[Bluelines]

If the Rangers and Leafs end up with a competitive advantage on ice the league will lose franchises

There has to be equal playing field

Many Fans won’t invest time and money in that type of system

... it is a false belief that the current Cap system is fair for everyone. Players in Florida don't pay state tax. For Toronto to compete on a take home pay level, they have to have a much higher cap hit.

Plus Toronto pays into a welfare fund for the poorer teams, how is that fair for Toronto's owners? The league decides to put a team in 'Zona but the Leafs have to subsidize a league decision to keep 'Zona in 'Zona?

I would suggest the cap is on take home pay (before you pay escrow and your agents) and not gross pay. So if TB has a player his gross is $9.5 mil but his take home is $9 mil, the cap hit for TB is $9 mil. If Toronto has a player making $11 million and his take home is $8.5 million, his cap hit is 8.5 million.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

This is fair.

If it comes to OS, which I highly doubt, then we will win. If someone gives Marner his apparent 12M ask then great we take the 4 1st rounders , screw them over later with revenue sharing (every dog gets his bone) and start the OS wars. Then we offer sheet Point for 10.5M and likely Tampa matches which kills them for their CAP and they have to unload 2 more guys. and then we OS Aho for 10.5M and they can't afford it so they let him go. and we net out 2 more 1st rounders and get a better player. All's fair in love and war and hockey. We make a mockery of the CAP system. and again what is Bettman going to do. Always remember how life works - don't start something with the big boy because he always gets the last laugh. or like my dad used to always tell us do not start the fight but if someone comes at you you break every bone in their face.

 

[Bluelines]

That's fair. For me when I here Bob say it I assume he's at least spoken to someone very close to the situation, but you're right. We can't say with 100% certainty that his agent is demanding Matthews money. I'd hope they aren't that delusional

Yeah when Bob or LeBrun speaks you can usually take it to the bank, when Dregger speaks you can usually take a shower afterwards because well he's greasy as F.

 

[mydnyte]

... it is a false belief that the current Cap system is fair for everyone. Players in Florida don't pay state tax. For Toronto to compete on a take home pay level, they have to have a much higher cap hit.

Plus Toronto pays into a welfare fund for the poorer teams, how is that fair for Toronto's owners? The league decides to put a team in 'Zona but the Leafs have to subsidize a league decision to keep 'Zona in 'Zona?

I would suggest the cap is on take home pay (before you pay escrow and your agents) and not gross pay. So if TB has a player his gross is $9.5 mil but his take home is $9 mil, the cap hit for TB is $9 mil. If Toronto has a player making $11 million and his take home is $8.5 million, his cap hit is 8.5 million.

that is the best idea i have heard in ages ...rather than screw the cap altogether, and make it an open market

 

[Tighthead]

babcock said it himself during the Nylander negotiations

“We’re not begging anyone to be a Leaf. It’s a privilege to be here, for me and for everybody else.”

Leafs loosen up in great outdoors at Gardiner Classic | The Star

Easy to say when your contract isn’t restricted by a salary cap and they backed the money truck up to your door.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

... it is a false belief that the current Cap system is fair for everyone. Players in Florida don't pay state tax. For Toronto to compete on a take home pay level, they have to have a much higher cap hit.

Plus Toronto pays into a welfare fund for the poorer teams, how is that fair for Toronto's owners? The league decides to put a team in 'Zona but the Leafs have to subsidize a league decision to keep 'Zona in 'Zona?

I would suggest the cap is on take home pay (before you pay escrow and your agents) and not gross pay. So if TB has a player his gross is $9.5 mil but his take home is $9 mil, the cap hit for TB is $9 mil. If Toronto has a player making $11 million and his take home is $8.5 million, his cap hit is 8.5 million.

Yea they need something in place.

McDavid makes 14 this year and Kuch makes 12 but Kuch takes home 400k more. That's pretty massive.

 

[willmma]

According to CapFriendly there are 49 RFA's waiting to be signed this year who have played more than 20 games and scored 9 goals or more last season.

I don't know if anyone who fit that criteria (RFA GP>=20 G>=9) has actually been signed yet.

But the hysteria in this fan base is reaching crazy levels.

Calm down guys. We signed JT. We signed Nylander. We signed Matthews. Working on the last one. There is enough maneuverability to make sure there is enough cap space. Our worst contracts are ASKING to be traded.

Marner will get signed for dollars and term that fit the club. We are fine.

Tampa on the other hand - yeesh, that's an ugly situation -
Eight of their top plaid players have some sort of NTC (except for Kucherov ??). The players they can trade are less than $2M players.
they have about $12M in cap space (after moving Callahan to LTIR) to sign six players including Point who will probably demand a big contract.

If I was Arizona I would offer sheet Point at $10Mx7. Very hard for Tampa to match it.

Good luck.

 

[Cor]

 

[realgoodleafs]

None of the big RFAs have signed yet.

 

[indigobuffalo]

For one, the hostility is uncalled for. For another, you're being very disingenuous. You start by asking what evidence I have of the impact of playing hardball on future negotiations--okay, notwithstanding generic evidence, point granted--but then you follow up this reasonable question by positing an even more implausible scenario involving offer sheets (when was the last time one of those was signed?). And, to my previous point about generic evidence, we are never under any obligation to rush trading him for pennies on the dollar. Again, we have nearly all the leverage in this context. Do you know how damaging it is for an athlete--someone whose window to cash in is already so narrow--to sit out for a significant period of time before signing their first big contract? In my view, the damage of that eventuality to him greatly exceeds the damage of losing his services to the team. It's really as simple as that for me.

Finally, I never claimed that Dubas could or should have been expected to sign our players to obscenely low contracts, nor were my issues with his approach only on the basis of hindsight (if you read through my post history, you'll see that I always favoured playing hardball, for the reasons already stated--and the history of under market value RFA contracts that are signed in the NHL are pretty good evidence that this is the right approach; incidentally, perhaps the reason players so rarely sit out is because they almost always cave to a GM playing hardball). In any case, I can see that we don't agree, and I don't particularly like engaging in a discussion where sarcasm and condescension are supposed to be substitutes for a cogent argument.

So Nylander sits out one year, demands a trade, doesn’t get it? He has the leverage of signing in Europe.

And offer sheets are rare, not illegal.

You on one hand suggest sitting a player the entire season to play hardball, which has occurred maybe twice in the thousands of thousands of contracts signed in the NHL, is perfectly reasonable. Yet an offer sheet which has occurred tenfold more frequently is implausible.

That is very disingenuous reasoning.

And you suggested that $6M was a reasonable contract for Nylander which has no support in terms of inflation adjusted comparable contracts.

My apologies for using sarcasm and condescension, however.

 

[Duffman955]

Just pulling numbers out of thin air, here?

Nylander is not better than Pastrnak

Marner is not better than Kucherov

Matthew's is not better than McDavid.

That's the basis of those numbers

 

[Menzinger]

"Creative around the edges", meaning filling out the roster around your giant contracts with ELC's and Ennis-like free agent signings who are practically playing for free because they have something to prove.

This is what I've been fearing, Dubas is turning us into Pittsburgh; top heavy with no flexibility.

Sweet jesus, he needs to stop every RFA and their agent from playing keep away with his sack and make some difficult decisions, and soon.

The Leafs were going to be a top heavy team the minute they drafted Matthew's.

How can a GM force a RFA to sign a contract? Hes already suggested hed be willing to move a guy who wont sign a deal. That's about as forceful as you can be

 

[DKH]

... it is a false belief that the current Cap system is fair for everyone. Players in Florida don't pay state tax. For Toronto to compete on a take home pay level, they have to have a much higher cap hit.

Plus Toronto pays into a welfare fund for the poorer teams, how is that fair for Toronto's owners? The league decides to put a team in 'Zona but the Leafs have to subsidize a league decision to keep 'Zona in 'Zona?

I would suggest the cap is on take home pay (before you pay escrow and your agents) and not gross pay. So if TB has a player his gross is $9.5 mil but his take home is $9 mil, the cap hit for TB is $9 mil. If Toronto has a player making $11 million and his take home is $8.5 million, his cap hit is 8.5 million.

If I’m Marner agent

5 years 50-60 M

At 27 go for another 5 years at 16 M?

By age 32 have made $130-140 M

 

[stickty111]

To add on
Dreger is on a Buffalo radio show, and he said Mitch turning down a 88 million dollar deal is false. The Leafs didn't make that offer.

 

[willmma]

Again, No other high level RFA has signed yet.
This is normal.

There is no need to listen to some radio pundit that probably does not have an inside line to how the Leafs feel and how the Marner camp feels.
total BS. Just ignore these guys.

 

[Menzinger]

... it is a false belief that the current Cap system is fair for everyone. Players in Florida don't pay state tax. For Toronto to compete on a take home pay level, they have to have a much higher cap hit.

Plus Toronto pays into a welfare fund for the poorer teams, how is that fair for Toronto's owners? The league decides to put a team in 'Zona but the Leafs have to subsidize a league decision to keep 'Zona in 'Zona?

I would suggest the cap is on take home pay (before you pay escrow and your agents) and not gross pay. So if TB has a player his gross is $9.5 mil but his take home is $9 mil, the cap hit for TB is $9 mil. If Toronto has a player making $11 million and his take home is $8.5 million, his cap hit is 8.5 million.

Tamoa also has amazing weather during the winter, guys can golf and fish all year round, it's also a low media pressure environment while still having an owner willing to pay to win AND they have a great team.

Tampa is probably one of the most desirable places in the entire NHL to play once you also factor in lack of state taxes. The idea that Yzerman is a master negotiator who forced Stamkos to take less is nonsense.

 

[Once]

Nylander is not better than Pastrnak

Marner is not better than Kucherov

Matthew's is not better than McDavid.

That's the basis of those numbers

Nylander and Pasta is based on cap %, but Pasta has surpassed expectations. Lets reevaluate Nylander's contract after a full season flanking AM34.

Kucherov has the tax leverage.

McDavid got a contract over 8 years. I bet we see less of these structured contracts and more of Matthews-esque contracts. Book it when guys like Jack Hughes and Dahlin are up for renewal.

 

[I Believe]

Depressing that Kucherov signed 9.5 x 8 not even a year ago after a 100 point season and here we are.

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

That's fair. For me when I here Bob say it I assume he's at least spoken to someone very close to the situation, but you're right. We can't say with 100% certainty that his agent is demanding Matthews money. I'd hope they aren't that delusional

I think it's also good to carefully consider the negotiation tactic. Marner may very well be taking a stance that he's as good as Matthews, of course he would find the highest price comparable he could. But if that's where they're going in at, it's likely because they'd expect to land under that. If they wanted to land at Matthews money, they wouldn't be going in saying they want Matthews money, they'd be asking $13+m.