Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[HolyCrap]

Regular season success should be seen as a runway to playoff success in most cases. You play the brand that makes you successful, dial it up even more when the chips are down and away you go.

Only in this weird era of Leafs hockey are the two so disjointed and we have to talk about regular season games not mattering because there’s only so much “give a shit” to go around.

There are regular season games that don’t have implication on the standings but every night matters. We all spend our real time following this stuff.

I know. That being said regular season success has not been the same as playoff success. That is a proven fact. Until then we watch regular season hoping things change.

 

[Martin Skoula]

MLSE is about making money first and winning second. They will sign these pseudostars and market them and keep the cash flowing and nothing will change

They sold out the stadium when Matthias-Holland-Parenteau was our top line, I’m thinking they’d be more profitable if they weren’t paying Matthews Marner Nylander and Tavares 60+ million up front every July 1st. Stop paying every recently retired player a consultant or player development salary, replace the scouting staff with YouTube, get rid of the sports science and whatever other skunkworks departments they have, stop having 6 vice-whatever roles per position at 6 figs a piece. I could save MLSE a ton of waste money and crank profits way up if they really wanted to, if Pontus Holmberg was the best player left on the team his jersey would outsell every bottom 20 markets star player.

They’re not greedy (well significantly more than any other ownership group anyway), they’re obscenely bloated as a company and that creates a risk averse culture. There’s too many people in the MLSE system who’s paycheck depends on business containing as usual.

 

[Mess]

They sold out the stadium when Matthias-Holland-Parenteau was our top line, I’m thinking they’d be more profitable if they weren’t paying Matthews Marner Nylander and Tavares 60+ million up front every July 1st. Stop paying every recently retired player a consultant or player development salary, replace the scouting staff with YouTube, get rid of the sports science and whatever other skunkworks departments they have, stop having 6 vice-whatever roles per position at 6 figs a piece. I could save MLSE a ton of waste money and crank profits way up if they really wanted to, if Pontus Holmberg was the best player left on the team his jersey would outsell every bottom 20 marker’s star player.

Sold Out Area vs. Maximizing Profit,

MLSE charges the highest ticket prices in the NHL for attendance and to validate that price of admission they need star players that will drive that revenue gravy train. This concept then extends to shareholders, investors, Luxury box owners and others.

Marner a local Ontario kid puts butts in seats, because he is exciting to watch. So the amount they pay him comes back to them tenfold in many other revenue streams including merchandise.

To fans that are focused on winning particularly championships are more concerned about his contract and whether the team is getting good bang for its buck in playoff contribution. His playoff struggles are well documented leading to team early exists and that is when his value to the team is questioned is his contract wouldn't be better applied to other players that potentially return better playoff performances and thus TEAM results.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Sold Out Area vs. Maximizing Profit,

MLSE charges the highest ticket prices in the NHL for attendance and to validate that price of admission they need star players that will drive that revenue gravy train. This concept then extends to shareholders, investors, Luxury box owners and others.

Marner a local Ontario kid puts butts in seats, because he is exciting to watch. So the amount they pay him comes back to them tenfold in many other revenue streams including merchandise.

To fans that are focused on winning particularly championships are more concerned about his contract and whether the team is getting good bang for its buck in playoff contribution. His playoff struggles are well documented leading to team early exists and that is when his value to the team is questioned is his contract wouldn't be better applied to other players that potentially return better playoff performances and thus TEAM results.

Oh I must have missed it when they dropped ticket prices when our mandatory pity all-star selection was Leo Komarov, how much did they drop them by? I’m guessing it must have been at most 1/4 of the inflation adjusted price of the current all star lineup.

They had the most expensive tickets for almost a decade with no 1C no 1D and no 1G no prospects and no hope of the playoffs short of a fluke shortened season. Marner doesn’t sell tickets, he sells brand deals. Even if we pretend the brand deals are a key priority for our monopolistic overlords, the bulk of the value of the franchise is the real estate it sits on.

 

[Stephen]

MLSE is about making money first and winning second. They will sign these pseudostars and market them and keep the cash flowing and nothing will change

Edmonton Oilers home games in the finals were generating $15 million a game. In Toronto that would probably be more. Winning and operational revenue are directly tied to one another.

 

[thewave]

Edmonton Oilers home games in the finals were generating $15 million a game. In Toronto that would probably be more. Winning and operational revenue are directly tied to one another.

Probably x2 or x3

 

[ToneDog]

You win if they perform in the playoffs. Simple as that. I think this coach can put them in a system that allows them to succeed where the prior coach could not.

One and eight says they do not have what it takes but keep the faith.

 

[ToneDog]

Team sports is hard for some to understand. It takes all 20 pulling together, it’s not Tennis.

Yeah let's give all the money to a few and expect a bunch of scrubs to make a difference.

 

[Evilhomer]

One and eight says they do not have what it takes but keep the faith.

I'm all about the coach. That's the difference for me.

 

[ToneDog]

I'm all about the coach. That's the difference for me.

I like Berube and I think Tre has done a great job fixing the D and G, so if they don't make a deep run this year, where lies the problem?

 

[Martin Skoula]

Edmonton Oilers home games in the finals were generating $15 million a game. In Toronto that would probably be more. Winning and operational revenue are directly tied to one another.

3 home games = our July 1st bonuses, sounds about right.

 

[francis246]

Can't they just project it and stabilize the system?

8 Year locked values --- 120m for 8 years --- Books then get looked at and if it's 150 or 160 next time around can be determined on past performance.

The way it is now is incredibly stupid.

Or make the max contract 5 years and the reevaluation is done every 5 years.

Why would any player agree to lock a shared revenue based business for 8 years? That makes zero sense. As revenues increase, salaries and the salary cap should be increasing. Players would be losing millions if they went with your suggestion.

The 5 year max contract length is something I agree with. The NBA went to that and it’s been one of the best decisions they ever made.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Can't they just project it and stabilize the system?

8 Year locked values --- 120m for 8 years --- Books then get looked at and if it's 150 or 160 next time around can be determined on past performance.

The way it is now is incredibly stupid.

Or make the max contract 5 years and the reevaluation is done every 5 years.

I think the easiest solution is to index salaries to the cap so they are floating and determined by the percentage of cap a player signs for.

It still allows for windfall gains for the team. It allows for greater flexibility in times of falling revenue. It would provide a more equitable distribution of funds.

I'm not sure how shortening the max length of deals will help since anyone who wants to sign for only five years is free to do so already.

 

[Racer88]

Yeah let's give all the money to a few and expect a bunch of scrubs to make a difference.

You can have 40 pulling together but if they are all low paid lower skilled with 4 dudes take all the dough you will never win especially when all 4 dudes are forwards

 

[ToneDog]

You can have 40 pulling together but if they are all low paid lower skilled with 4 dudes take all the dough you will never win especially when all 4 dudes are forwards

Some fans refuse to accept this. It is like we discussed yesterday. We could have signed Roy instead of OEL if we had the free cap space. How about DeBrusk over Domi or taking a run at Montour?

16, 34, 88, 91 and 44 are the common denominators for the last 7 playoff failures. We've changed the pieces around them every summer and added at almost every TDL but the results are the same. Now they want to lock into the same core for another 4-7 more years. Insanity. At least wait until you see what Marner and the team does in April before repeating the past.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

Yeah depth discussions can go in circles.

We've lost a lot if series because the core are a lot better than the guys on the bottom six. We can't afford a better bottom six because there isn't cap space. How do you remove one of your four 10/10 players to add two maybe 7/10 players? Is that actually an improvement?

I don't have the answer but we haven't tried it so all we can do is wonder.

It feels likely well resign both Mitch and JT if we project the most likely outcome and that will lead us to a slight cap surplus if they take 13M and 5.5M respectively.

I'm just concerned because these guys have a lot of bad memories (demons?) here that isn't easy to overcome. This would be a goofy thing for say for anyone other than us. The leafs genuinely look different in elimination games and I can't think of a solution other than change. We have a new coach so hopefully that will do it this year.

We do need a killer 3rd line. Our opponents MO is shut down Matthews and we're dead. That is a pretty fool proof plan so far. Florida and Tampa and any other cup champion, you can point to a guy on the 3rd line and say, that player is actually a top 6 player. I don't think you can win a cup without something like that. Easier said than done but we just don't have the money and I think it's an issue.

I admire when other teams do gutsy stuff; Huberdeau trade after getting 100+ points, Fluery trade after winning the vezna, Stamkos walking and using the cap to get Guenztel. I'm struggling at our lack of creativity. The regular season dominance is truly spectacular and something not to dismiss, but I have a problem with a division not being won, and a lack of building a secondary core. I'll be disappointed if Knies is bridged but that'll probably happen instead of a long term deal.

Anyway, we'll see. With the core being as good as they are, our trade deadline acquisition needs are only a 3C and that isn't too bad at all! Usually we've needed a top pairing D every year to play with rielly .

 

[thewave]

Why would any player agree to lock a shared revenue based business for 8 years? That makes zero sense. As revenues increase, salaries and the salary cap should be increasing. Players would be losing millions if they went with your suggestion.

The 5 year max contract length is something I agree with. The NBA went to that and it’s been one of the best decisions they ever made.

The teams should lock them out and force it. LNMCs only as well. If they don't like it go play in Russia or start your own league.

5 year stability on cap with 5 year max contracts is the safest bet. Contracts would be valued on being signed on certain blocks ie. 2025 - 2030 Block contract fixed to 120m cap. Reevaluation of the cap happens at 2030 and if they are not happy about contract negotiations in 2029 take a 1 year bridge and get in on the 2031 @ 150m block contract.

The league is run by Muppets with little business sense when it comes to this. The players are taking advantage

 

[francis246]

The teams should lock them out and force it. LNMCs only as well. If they don't like it go play in Russia or start your own league.

5 year stability on cap with 5 year max contracts is the safest bet. Contracts would be valued on being signed on certain blocks ie. 2025 - 2030 Block contract fixed to 120m cap. Reevaluation of the cap happens at 2030 and if they are not happy about contract negotiations in 2029 take a 1 year bridge and get in on the 2031 @ 150m block contract.

The league is run by Muppets with little business sense when it comes to this. The players are taking advantage

What? Why would the owners also do that? Revenue is 50/50. So you’re advocating for the owners to actively lose money as well? Listen you’re a decent poster and I do enjoy responding to your posts, but you don’t really have a good grasp of revenue / salary caps. These are some of the worst takes I have ever seen when it comes to this topic. Also as a fan of a team with financial might, why would you not want our team to have a competitive advantage to spend? The answer is to have a flexible salary cap that allows owners who want to spend over the cap pay a penalty or a tax. Also introduce incentives that give players who choose to stay with the team that drafted them more money. The NBA has gotten it right on so many levels. The only reason the NHL is not moving that direction is because they have owners that are greedy as hell.

I don’t know how you can say with a straight face the NHL is being run by the players when they make almost 2-4x less than their athlete counter parts in other major sports. Player salaries haven’t changed since 2004. Players were making 10 million before the cap and they are still capped under 14 million almost 20 years later. The owners have completely dominated the last two CBA’s and it’s not even close. To say the players run the show or are taking advantage is a JOKE.

As a fan of the leafs I completely understand the idea of wanting to have better control of our salary cap/player salaries because the current system is so restrictive so we need to hyper fixate on it.

But from a purely human/sports fan side, I see from the NHL players side and they have been jipped, taken advantage of since 2005.

 

[francis246]

Some fans refuse to accept this. It is like we discussed yesterday. We could have signed Roy instead of OEL if we had the free cap space. How about DeBrusk over Domi or taking a run at Montour?

16, 34, 88, 91 and 44 are the common denominators for the last 7 playoff failures. We've changed the pieces around them every summer and added at almost every TDL but the results are the same. Now they want to lock into the same core for another 4-7 more years. Insanity. At least wait until you see what Marner and the team does in April before repeating the past.

Those players had zero interest in coming here. This is why advocating that we could have done this or that in UFA is a fools race. Debrusk was never going to be a leaf. Matt Roy wanted the leafs to offer more to sign there and when they didn’t want to he signed in Washington.

Even if you wanted to get them you’d have to overpay them to be Maple Leafs. Is Jake Debrusk an 8 million dollar player? Is Matt Roy a 6+ million dollar player?

Montour was asked about being a Maple Leaf and said he wasn’t interested.

As I’ve mentioned before, no one isn’t advocating for a change. The problem is the change if there was one to be made, it should have been a trade 2 or so seasons ago. You cannot bank on rebuilding through UFA, there are too many variables including the players have to WANT to be here. Having the cap space doesn’t = those players signing here. You let go of Marner and swing and miss on the intended targets then what? How do you explain that to a fan base?

 

[thewave]

What? Why would the owners also do that? Revenue is 50/50. So you’re advocating for the owners to actively lose money as well? Listen you’re a decent poster and I do enjoy responding to your posts, but you don’t really have a good grasp of revenue / salary caps. These are some of the worst takes I have ever seen when it comes to this topic. Also as a fan of a team with financial might, why would you not want our team to have a competitive advantage to spend? The answer is to have a flexible salary cap that allows owners who want to spend over the cap pay a penalty or a tax. Also introduce incentives that give players who choose to stay with the team that drafted them more money. The NBA has gotten it right on so many levels. The only reason the NHL is not moving that direction is because they have owners that are greedy as hell.

I don’t know how you can say with a straight face the NHL is being run by the players when they make almost 2-4x less than their athlete counter parts in other major sports. Player salaries haven’t changed since 2004. Players were making 10 million before the cap and they are still capped under 14 million almost 20 years later. The owners have completely dominated the last two CBA’s and it’s not even close. To say the players run the show or are taking advantage is a JOKE.

As a fan of the leafs I completely understand the idea of wanting to have better control of our salary cap/player salaries because the current system is so restrictive so we need to hyper fixate on it.

But from a purely human/sports fan side, I see from the NHL players side and they have been jipped, taken advantage of since 2005.

Cap, it never goes down. Just base the total amount on past projections or follow expected inflation to project. Do it after the TV deal if need be. Some blocks will be winners and some losers, but be fair overall and provide a stable environment.

The cap system in the NHL is a joke.

 

[ToneDog]

Those players had zero interest in coming here. This is why advocating that we could have done this or that in UFA is a fools race. Debrusk was never going to be a leaf. Matt Roy wanted the leafs to offer more to sign there and when they didn’t want to he signed in Washington.

Even if you wanted to get them you’d have to overpay them to be Maple Leafs. Is Jake Debrusk an 8 million dollar player? Is Matt Roy a 6+ million dollar player?

Montour was asked about being a Maple Leaf and said he wasn’t interested.

As I’ve mentioned before, no one isn’t advocating for a change. The problem is the change if there was one to be made, it should have been a trade 2 or so seasons ago. You cannot bank on rebuilding through UFA, there are too many variables including the players have to WANT to be here. Having the cap space doesn’t = those players signing here. You let go of Marner and swing and miss on the intended targets then what? How do you explain that to a fan base?

Having cap space gives you a seat at the table. Without it, you are on the outside looking in and looking for bargains.

Not moving off this core 2 years ago, does not mean the right move is to continue to double down on them and lock yourself in for the next 4-8 years. With this core making all the money, the Leafs have not been able to surround them with the right pieces to get them over the top and 2 of 3 have sucked when it counted.

Doing the same thing and expecting different results = Insanity. This is year #9.

 

[thewave]

Having cap space gives you a seat at the table. Without it, you are on the outside looking in and looking for bargains.

Not moving off this core 2 years ago, does not mean the right move is to continue to double down on them and lock yourself in for the next 4-8 years. With this core making all the money, the Leafs have not been able to surround them with the right pieces to get them over the top and 2 of 3 have sucked when it counted.

Doing the same thing and expecting different results = Insanity. This is year #9.

Doubling down on dumb is pretty common in 2024. It's basically the status quo or ear mark of the 2010s 2020s in all respects.

 

[francis246]

Having cap space gives you a seat at the table. Without it, you are on the outside looking in and looking for bargains.

Not moving off this core 2 years ago, does not mean the right move is to continue to double down on them and lock yourself in for the next 4-8 years. With this core making all the money, the Leafs have not been able to surround them with the right pieces to get them over the top and 2 of 3 have sucked when it counted.

Doing the same thing and expecting different results = Insanity. This is year #9.

Sure it does, but most teams do double, triple, quadruple down and eventually they break through. I’ve asked this 100 times already but please name me a team in the salary cap era that walked one of their best players to free agency and then won the cup afterwards? The answer is there is none!

Most of those teams that have moved off their core have done it via trade, otherwise they’ve continued to tinker with the spare parts just like the leafs. The only difference is other teams have done a better job at identifying depth players who can produce higher than their contract value. The leafs have struggled to find those. It’s not so much about spending more money, it’s about getting better at identifying players who are good and are willing to commit to your team after acquisition.

Nick Foligno, Ryan O’Reilly, Joel Edmundson, are just three examples of paying a high acquisition cost and having nothing to show for it. We gotta start resigning these guys when we do get them. We were able to retain McCabe which is a great start.

 

[Stephen]

As far as MLSE is concerned, whatever contract demand Mitch Marner makes will be an after thought, and only big by the smallness of Gary Bettman's cap world.

If you look at the salary structure of the Toronto Raptors, and let's assume they pull in the same money as the Leafs, they have a team salary of $169 million and their 2x highest paid players RJ Barrett and Jakob Poeltl make more than the entire Big 4 combined.

At the ownership level, MLSE looks at what the hockey team is spending and it's elite players making average NBA money.

 

[BraveCanadian]

But from a purely human/sports fan side, I see from the NHL players side and they have been jipped, taken advantage of since 2005.

I get this in comparison to the other major sports but the reason is that hockey actually isn’t a major sport.

Hockey has become much more exclusive in the past 25-30 years, and it is getting worse all the time.

I don’t feel bad at all for people making millions of guaranteed dollars for playing a game. It sure beats working for a living.