Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[thewave]

I get this in comparison to the other major sports but the reason is that hockey actually isn’t a major sport.

Hockey has become much more exclusive in the past 25-30 years, and it is getting worse all the time.

I don’t feel bad at all for people making millions of guaranteed dollars for playing a game. It sure beats working for a living.

Exactly. It is literally an entitled rich kid sport compared to other sports. The cost to play vs Baseball or Basketball or Soccer on and on. I mean, it's right there with Golf.

The more they grow it forcefully the worse it gets and people around here don't get. The snotty rich kids like Marner just want to make bank and the fathers of those kids are here complaining about how bad they got it lol. I am for the owners here and growing the game. There are tax issues etc that are more important.

I got on the ice at 3 or so. I get it, I've seen it all and they aren't helping the game.

 

[Stephen]

Exactly. It is literally an entitled rich kid sport compared to other sports. The cost to play vs Baseball or Basketball or Soccer on and on. I mean, it's right there with Golf.

The more they grow it forcefully the worse it gets and people around here don't get. The snotty rich kids like Marner just want to make bank and the fathers of those kids are here complaining about how bad they got it lol. I am for the owners here and growing the game. There are tax issues etc that are more important.

I got on the ice at 3 or so. I get it, I've seen it all and they aren't helping the game.

Neither here nor there, but it feels like NHL has experienced a few poor drafts since the pandemic. Not sure if it's cyclical but if the Canadian goaltending pipeline is any indication, hockey might not be capturing the athlete pool like it used to.

 

[thusk]

Yeah depth discussions can go in circles.

We've lost a lot if series because the core are a lot better than the guys on the bottom six. We can't afford a better bottom six because there isn't cap space. How do you remove one of your four 10/10 players to add two maybe 7/10 players? Is that actually an improvement?

I don't have the answer but we haven't tried it so all we can do is wonder.

It feels likely well resign both Mitch and JT if we project the most likely outcome and that will lead us to a slight cap surplus if they take 13M and 5.5M respectively.

I'm just concerned because these guys have a lot of bad memories (demons?) here that isn't easy to overcome. This would be a goofy thing for say for anyone other than us. The leafs genuinely look different in elimination games and I can't think of a solution other than change. We have a new coach so hopefully that will do it this year.

We do need a killer 3rd line. Our opponents MO is shut down Matthews and we're dead. That is a pretty fool proof plan so far. Florida and Tampa and any other cup champion, you can point to a guy on the 3rd line and say, that player is actually a top 6 player. I don't think you can win a cup without something like that. Easier said than done but we just don't have the money and I think it's an issue.

I admire when other teams do gutsy stuff; Huberdeau trade after getting 100+ points, Fluery trade after winning the vezna, Stamkos walking and using the cap to get Guenztel. I'm struggling at our lack of creativity. The regular season dominance is truly spectacular and something not to dismiss, but I have a problem with a division not being won, and a lack of building a secondary core. I'll be disappointed if Knies is bridged but that'll probably happen instead of a long term deal.

Anyway, we'll see. With the core being as good as they are, our trade deadline acquisition needs are only a 3C and that isn't too bad at all! Usually we've needed a top pairing D every year to play with rielly .

1- Its the 1st year in Matthews era than leafs had at least 3 good defensive pair and at least 4 top 4 level Dman. It's brand new

2-When everyone will be back, i think leafs would be able to split marner/Matthews to 3 line. What i hope after TDL is something like
Mcmann-Matthews-Domi
Pacioretty-Tavares-Nylander
Knies-Gourde-Marner
Lorentz-Minten-Holmberg / Dewar

3- If Knies asking around 7,6M like slafkovsky in Mtl for an 8 years... I take the bridge deal unstead pretty easily. We don't know whats the negociation are

4-Fleury trade had been terrible for vegas and they missed the playoff the year they did it.

PS florida traded a 100 pts player for a 100 pts player younger, cheaper and with a more complete game... The last time i remembered 2 superstar being trade was the Wever/Subban trsde and the Hewtlry vs Hossa trade. Those kind of trade doesn't happening pretty often

5- Riwlly had been great with Schenn, boosh who was just depht dman

 

[francis246]

Exactly. It is literally an entitled rich kid sport compared to other sports. The cost to play vs Baseball or Basketball or Soccer on and on. I mean, it's right there with Golf.

The more they grow it forcefully the worse it gets and people around here don't get. The snotty rich kids like Marner just want to make bank and the fathers of those kids are here complaining about how bad they got it lol. I am for the owners here and growing the game. There are tax issues etc that are more important.

I got on the ice at 3 or so. I get it, I've seen it all and they aren't helping the game.

I do agree with you on this part. Except Marner’s family wasn’t ever rich. Pretty sure that’s the reason why Paul acted like he did when Marner was young. Mitch was Paul’s meal ticket.

Auston and Willy come from affluent backgrounds.

And I would never be in support for owners. I’m not sure why anyone would be on the owners side for anything lol. They are more greedy and devious than any player. And they do not give a shit about the fans.

 

[francis246]

Neither here nor there, but it feels like NHL has experienced a few poor drafts since the pandemic. Not sure if it's cyclical but if the Canadian goaltending pipeline is any indication, hockey might not be capturing the athlete pool like it used to.

More kids are going into Soccer, Volleyball and Basketball. Scholarships are available for those sports. And you don’t need to pay hundreds or thousands for equipment before the registration costs.

 

[thewave]

I do agree with you on this part. Except Marner’s family wasn’t ever rich. Pretty sure that’s the reason why Paul acted like he did when Marner was young. Mitch was Paul’s meal ticket.

Auston and Willy come from affluent backgrounds.

And I would never be in support for owners. I’m not sure why anyone would be on the owners side for anything lol. They are more greedy and devious than any player. And they do not give a shit about the fans.

The owners are trying to build the game, that is pretty obvious. They even use revenue sharing. It's a tug of war and a paradox of sorts. High salary drives athletes to want to play the sport. Low salary and high cost to get into sport causes a lack of interest in the sport.

Now you can get into the debate of, maybe it's better to save some money on cap and invest it in the local cities community.

Ie.

Family discounts

Free field trip meet and greet and game

Eat the ticket prices for kids dying of cancer or sick with disease. Promote that.

Local school appearances.

Hire a ball hockey coach, donate ball hockey equipment to schools. Run clinics

Subsidize equipment for hockey hopefuls in low income areas.



There are endless things they can deal with the real NHL growth issue. It takes money and time and ambassadors of the game. The league right now looks like a betting BS bastardized fail sport for rich entitled punks that can afford ice time or want to make money. It's not a love of Stanley sport anymore. They lost their way and are scrambling to make money off gambling etc. Pretty apparent when Canada can't even produce tenders anymore, we are falling apart. Not even our coverage of the sport is interesting or good.

Think about that!

 

[thewave]

More kids are going into Soccer, Volleyball and Basketball. Scholarships are available for those sports. And you don’t need to pay hundreds or thousands for equipment before the registration costs.

Exactly. The NHL should invest in Scholarships new winning idea.

 

[GoonieFace]

The owners are trying to build the game, that is pretty obvious. They even use revenue sharing. It's a tug of war and a paradox of sorts. High salary drives athletes to want to play the sport. Low salary and high cost to get into sport causes a lack of interest in the sport.

Now you can get into the debate of, maybe it's better to save some money on cap and invest it in the local cities community.

Ie.

Family discounts

Free field trip meet and greet and game

Eat the ticket prices for kids dying of cancer or sick with disease. Promote that.

Local school appearances.

Hire a ball hockey coach, donate ball hockey equipment to schools. Run clinics

Subsidize equipment for hockey hopefuls in low income areas.



There are endless things they can deal with the real NHL growth issue. It takes money and time and ambassadors of the game. The league right now looks like a betting BS bastardized fail sport for rich entitled punks that can afford ice time or want to make money. It's not a love of Stanley sport anymore. They lost their way and are scrambling to make money off gambling etc. Pretty apparent when Canada can't even produce tenders anymore, we are falling apart. Not even our coverage of the sport is interesting or good.

Think about that!

Hate to break it to you, the only reason people pursue professional sports is money. Winning is just a bonus. The greed starts at the grassroots level where they charge ridiculous amounts of money to play, never mind the time commitment.

 

[thewave]

Hate to break it to you, the only reason people pursue professional sports is money. Winning is just a bonus. The greed starts at the grassroots level where they charge ridiculous amounts of money to play, never mind the time commitment.

That's fine. They are still doing a poor job at growing the game from the grassroots level. Gambling is the quick fix, that hit they just needed to get going. Now everyone is constantly complaining about officiating. Sure there was BS always, now?? It's hilarious

 

[Stephen]

That's fine. They are still doing a poor job at growing the game from the grassroots level. Gambling is the quick fix, that hit they just needed to get going. Now everyone is constantly complaining about officiating. Sure there was BS always, now?? It's hilarious

The NHL has done a great job extracting talent from the pool of players out there but I'd be curious to see what the grassroots investment is. I would assume it's not significant.

 

[francis246]

The owners are trying to build the game, that is pretty obvious. They even use revenue sharing. It's a tug of war and a paradox of sorts. High salary drives athletes to want to play the sport. Low salary and high cost to get into sport causes a lack of interest in the sport.

Now you can get into the debate of, maybe it's better to save some money on cap and invest it in the local cities community.

Ie.

Family discounts

Free field trip meet and greet and game

Eat the ticket prices for kids dying of cancer or sick with disease. Promote that.

Local school appearances.

Hire a ball hockey coach, donate ball hockey equipment to schools. Run clinics

Subsidize equipment for hockey hopefuls in low income areas.



There are endless things they can deal with the real NHL growth issue. It takes money and time and ambassadors of the game. The league right now looks like a betting BS bastardized fail sport for rich entitled punks that can afford ice time or want to make money. It's not a love of Stanley sport anymore. They lost their way and are scrambling to make money off gambling etc. Pretty apparent when Canada can't even produce tenders anymore, we are falling apart. Not even our coverage of the sport is interesting or good.

Think about that!

The owners are not trying to grow the game.. every cba negotiation literally disproves that. The owners don’t care about growing the game, they care about revenue and winning the Stanley cup if possible. If they cared they would be in favour of as many international tournaments as possible. They’d be investing a ton of money in youth hockey ect. They’d be okay with players showing personality and player movement.


The owners are trying to make as much money as possible without having to spend that much. Players are trying to make as much money as they can as they put their bodies on the line for our entertainment and to help the owners make money.

 

[ULF_55]

Match them up

Matthews, marner, Nylander, Tavares, Rielly

Quarterback, Wide Receiver, Tight End, Full Back, Half Back

 

[thewave]

The owners are not trying to grow the game.. every cba negotiation literally disproves that. The owners don’t care about growing the game, they care about revenue and winning the Stanley cup if possible. If they cared they would be in favour of as many international tournaments as possible. They’d be investing a ton of money in youth hockey ect. They’d be okay with players showing personality and player movement.


The owners are trying to make as much money as possible without having to spend that much. Players are trying to make as much money as they can as they put their bodies on the line for our entertainment and to help the owners make money.

Then they all lost the plot. Kids need to play a sport to become a fan of a sport. Even if it's just a few times.

I never gave a crap about baseball until I started playing it at school. Then I started playing it in the league and watching it on TV and going to the dome.

The point I am making is that in a CBA provisions can be made for this. Allocations of money.

 

[Stephen]

The owners are not trying to grow the game.. every cba negotiation literally disproves that. The owners don’t care about growing the game, they care about revenue and winning the Stanley cup if possible. If they cared they would be in favour of as many international tournaments as possible. They’d be investing a ton of money in youth hockey ect. They’d be okay with players showing personality and player movement.


The owners are trying to make as much money as possible without having to spend that much. Players are trying to make as much money as they can as they put their bodies on the line for our entertainment and to help the owners make money.

I'd clarify that they care about franchise valuations and expansion dollars, not even necessarily revenue per se.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Exactly. It is literally an entitled rich kid sport compared to other sports. The cost to play vs Baseball or Basketball or Soccer on and on. I mean, it's right there with Golf.

The more they grow it forcefully the worse it gets and people around here don't get. The snotty rich kids like Marner just want to make bank and the fathers of those kids are here complaining about how bad they got it lol. I am for the owners here and growing the game. There are tax issues etc that are more important.

I got on the ice at 3 or so. I get it, I've seen it all and they aren't helping the game.

Indeed. A buddy of mine growing up would play hockey and made moves at top speed that I've never seen since. He moved laterally like Barry Sanders ran the football and the puck stayed on his stick. Similar to Nylander to some degree, he just had excellent control and coordination in tight but his biggest strength was his swift elusiveness when stickhandling, really difficult to catch or predict his move.

He was a good hockey player at a young age, his parents sacrificed to get him to play in the expensive Toronto leagues. He learned at even a young age how much politics played as other players from more prominent families, parents who were executives who made donations and had pull which brought attention and invites for their kids.

It's unfortunate but it ensures that many very athletic and talented players give up early as he did.

 

[thewave]

Indeed. A buddy of mine growing up would play hockey and made moves at top speed that I've never seen since. He moved laterally like Barry Sanders ran the football and the puck stayed on his stick. Similar to Nylander to some degree, he just had excellent control and coordination in tight but his biggest strength was his swift elusiveness when stickhandling, really difficult to catch or predict his move.

He was a good hockey player at a young age, his parents sacrificed to get him to play in the expensive Toronto leagues. He learned at even a young age how much politics played as other players from more prominent families, parents who were executives who made donations and had pull which brought attention and invites for their kids.

It's unfortunate but it ensures that many very athletic and talented players give up early as he did.

Witnessed this with my own eyes. Top level players disgusted with the politics quiting the game. Wealthy fathers giving perks to coaches for favor etc.

Canada created a nightmare for itself. The top level (NHL) has power to influence this and correct it to an extent but will not.

 

[mapleleaf979]

The media blew Marners punch in a scrum out of hand. Acting like he changed. Its not easy to change. Anyone can change for a few months to lock down a 12 million x 8 years. This team is better with Bennett at 2c vs Marner at any number. 22 million is unlocked with Tavares and Marner. 8 of that 22 has to go to Bennett as first option. Plan B is another story.

 

[Maple Leaf]

The media blew Marners punch in a scrum out of hand. Acting like he changed. Its not easy to change. Anyone can change for a few months to lock down a 12 million x 8 years. This team is better with Bennett at 2c vs Marner at any number. 22 million is unlocked with Tavares and Marner. 8 of that 22 has to go to Bennett as first option. Plan B is another story.

No we should run it back for the ninth time maybe they will win this time around go leafs go

 

[HolyCrap]

No we should run it back for the ninth time maybe they will win this time around go leafs go

Exactly. And if you don’t agree you are a hater. Don’t dare mention how the cap is allocated either.

 

[IPS]

Hearing that the Leafs and Marner's camp are closing in on a number. Apparently supposed to be done before the new year.

Let's hope we don't get bent over again.

 

[Evilhomer]

Exactly. And if you don’t agree you are a hater. Don’t dare mention how the cap is allocated either.

Whether right or wrong, does it even matter? Does anyone realistically believe that this franchise, one so afraid of risk and brand degradation, is going to let one of its biggest stars walk away? It won't happen.

Hearing that the Leafs and Marner's camp are closing in on a number. Apparently supposed to be done before the new year.

Let's hope we don't get bent over again.

Define bent over. It's going to a number between Nylander and Matthews. The only material question is the number of years.

 

[ToneDog]

Hearing that the Leafs and Marner's camp are closing in on a number. Apparently supposed to be done before the new year.

Let's hope we don't get bent over again.

Put a fork in them. Continuing to bet on the wrong horses is pure stupidity.

 

[HolyCrap]

Put a fork in them. Continuing to bet on the wrong horses is pure stupidity.

If this happens then they really are trying to get him signed early before the potential playoff flop like history has shown. Easier to deal with the big contract now before signing him after another disappointing playoffs. Which is pure stupidity like you said.

 

[ToneDog]

If this happens then they really are trying to get him signed early before the potential playoff flop like history has shown. Easier to deal with the big contract now before signing him after another disappointing playoffs. Which is pure stupidity like you said.

As Versteeg said and has been my position, you wait to see how it plays out before you decide if you want to sign him and how much to offer. Of course this is a franchise that has not won a cup since 1967, so no surprise they will make the wrong move. It is less than a year since watching Willie morph into a 120 point player only to return to the old PPG Willie the minute after caving to him. You think the idiots would have learned something.

 

[ULF_55]

Witnessed this with my own eyes. Top level players disgusted with the politics quiting the game. Wealthy fathers giving perks to coaches for favor etc.

Canada created a nightmare for itself. The top level (NHL) has power to influence this and correct it to an extent but will not.

Not restricted to hockey though.

$4k - $6k a year for soccer 20 years ago.