Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Continued

[ACC1224]

Congrats Mitch, Leafs Molson Cup player of the month, points in every game except one during the month of November.

Now Ferris has Molson on the payroll.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

This thread has always been spicy with extreme support and criticism that I'm guilty of as well.


On one hand it's not basketball, one player cannot carry a team and we've had some doozy rosters these past 7 years. A lack of any kind of real depth makes the cores job pretty tough. Their agents got them their contract, not their fault they're overpaid. From the eye test, honestly some games the leafs look like dead meat when Mitch is not on the ice, and I'm referring to playoffs.


On the other hand I can't reconcile continuing to treat our players like cup champions and pay them more than Conn Smythe and Hart winners. This isn't right and something should give to challenge the roster/cap structure of these 4 guys. I don't want to hear about taxes, this is the maple leafs, should be an honor to be here, especially for someone born in Toronto. Paying Marner more than someone whose won two recent Rocket trophies on our own team, doesn't make sense. Paying a right winger 14M in any circumstance is highly questionable. And yes, playoff results are of paramount importance, regular season hot stretches and individual achievements should not be considered acceptable at this pay level and stage of development.

Our regular season consistency is amazing and something to marvel at, and the playoff record is just as marvelous in the other direction

 

[ToneDog]

Two time SC champ, former NHLer Kris Versteeg (38:00) shares why the Leafs should hold off on a Marner extension until the playoffs. Welcome to the haters, frothers, no clue club Kris.

Real Kyper and Bourne

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne talk all things Maple Leafs and NHL! Airing live on Sportsnet 590 The FAN weekdays from 4-6 PM ET.

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[Evilhomer]

This thread has always been spicy with extreme support and criticism that I'm guilty of as well.


On one hand it's not basketball, one player cannot carry a team and we've had some doozy rosters these past 7 years. A lack of any kind of real depth makes the cores job pretty tough. They're agents got them their pay, not their fault they're overpaid. From the eye test, honestly some games the leafs look like dead meat when Mitch is not on the ice, and I'm referring to playoffs.


On the other hand I can't reconcile continuing to treat our players like cup champions and pay them more than Conn Smythe and Hart winners. This isn't right and something should give to challenge the roster/cap structure of these 4 guys. I don't want to hear about taxes, this is the maple leafs, should be an honor to be here, especially for someone born in Toronto. Paying Marner more than someone whose won two recent Rocket trophies on our own team, doesn't make sense. Paying a right winger 14M in any circumstance is highly questionable. And yes, playoff results are of paramount importance, regular season hot stretches and individual achievements should not be considered acceptable at this pay level and stage of development.

Our regular season consistency is amazing and something to marvel at, and the playoff record is just as marvelous in the other direction

He's not going to get $14 million. Whatever he ends up getting, it will be less than Matthews.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

He's not going to get $14 million. Whatever he ends up getting, it will be less than Matthews.

My opinion is the same at 13M or 12.92M

 

[therealkoho]

Signing Marner would lock them into the 3 amigos who are 1 and 8 in the playoffs. Does not sound like a wise investment and hence why my position is to wait and see what we are buying. I mean if you are buying a car for harsh winters, would you not be afraid if that car only performed in warm weather?

You know where I stand on this, I wouldn’t have signed the other guy for 13 and change and not have anything even remotely looking like playoff success. They had their chance to kiss him goodbye, but no push all the chips in and keep trying to draw to an inside straight

 

[Maple Leaf]

You know where I stand on this, I wouldn’t have signed the other guy for 13 and change and not have anything even remotely looking like playoff success. They had their chance to kiss him goodbye, but no push all the chips in and keep trying to draw to an inside straight

MLSE is about making money first and winning second. They will sign these pseudostars and market them and keep the cash flowing and nothing will change

 

[HolyCrap]

MLSE is about making money first and winning second. They will sign these pseudostars and market them and keep the cash flowing and nothing will change

Exactly. And they have fans that will eat it up. Case in point is this forum. Lotsa posters who don’t really have a clue but are happy to cheer regular season and couldn’t care less about actually competing post season.

 

[ToneDog]

My opinion is the same at 13M or 12.92M

Mitch will keep playing well and putting up great numbers against sad teams like Chicago, Nashville, Pittsburgh etc. and the Leafs will cave and give him $13m. He'll get neutered in games 5-7 because teams adapt as a series goes deeper and odds are they do not get by Florida in round #2.

They will look like fools for not waiting and it will be the same rerun for the life of their contracts.

Exactly. And they have fans that will eat it up. Case in point is this forum. Lotsa posters who don’t really have a clue but are happy to cheer regular season and couldn’t care less about actually competing post season.

I am not sure if some of those "fans" do not have an agenda.

 

[HolyCrap]

Mitch will keep playing well and putting up great numbers against sad teams like Chicago, Nashville, Pittsburgh etc. and the Leafs will cave and give him $13m. He'll get neutered in games 5-7 because teams adapt as a series goes deeper and odds are they do not get by Florida in round #2.

They will look like fools for not waiting and it will be the same rerun for the life of their contracts.


I am not sure if some of those "fans" do not have an agenda.

On your last point. That’s a very good point and I agree.

 

[ACC1224]

He's not going to get $14 million. Whatever he ends up getting, it will be less than Matthews.

It’s all about the percentage. His will fall between Matthews and Nylander.
Seems pretty silly to consider they will do anything else.

 

[Evilhomer]

It’s all about the percentage. His will fall between Matthews and Nylander.
Seems pretty silly to consider they will do anything else.

Exactly. All things considered, I think this will end up being a pretty straightforward exercise. Mitch is range-bound between those two guys. He can't be lower than or higher than the other, so it's just a matter of which between the two it ends up being, and for how many years.

 

[ToneDog]

Exactly. All things considered, I think this will end up being a pretty straightforward exercise. Mitch is range-bound between those two guys. He can't be lower than or higher than the other, so it's just a matter of which between the two it ends up being, and for how many years.

Problem is you cannot win in the playoffs with these 3 making $37+m and not coming close to outperforming their contracts while other teams are paying stars like Reinhart, Aho, Necas, Makar, Hughes 25+% less. Enjoy the regular season success.

 

[Evilhomer]

Problem is you cannot win in the playoffs with these 3 making $37+m and not coming close to outperforming their contracts while other teams are paying stars like Reinhart, Aho, Necas, Makar, Hughes 25+% less. Enjoy the regular season success.

You win if they perform in the playoffs. Simple as that. I think this coach can put them in a system that allows them to succeed where the prior coach could not.

 

[Roo]

Here are a bunch of examples of him doing the same sort of thing before... he's always attacked the middle of the ice...

You're trying to isolate a single play saying him playing like this is unique... it's not.

So much talent. I haven’t seen much from the ‘no we need the cap space so we can pay a bunch of shmucks $1m more’ crowd. Pretty sure they finally recognize that letting your top talent walk isn’t a recipe for improving your team. Wild.

 

[Leafsfan74]

Exactly. All things considered, I think this will end up being a pretty straightforward exercise. Mitch is range-bound between those two guys. He can't be lower than or higher than the other, so it's just a matter of which between the two it ends up being, and for how many years.

It's the Leafs, so unlike the Rangers. TB or other more serious franchises, they won't make the difficult decisions. Stamkos was left to walk, no return, Trouba was given an ultimatum if he didn't want to wave his no-trade.

Win or lose (and TB have obviously done quite a bit of actual winning with Stamkos as captain), in the end they are in the business of winning championships or die trying. Sometimes this means tough decisions where you are objective. It's not personal, strictly business.

I would bet all of my worldly belongings that Tampa Bay could go through a minor rebuild and have a Cup winner before the Leafs with its current crop which is theoretically closer to the Cup would. I could say the same about numerous teams be it Boston, Carolina or others.

Leafs are in a far better place than these two teams as they have stars outside of Marner and young depth. The cap space currency value goes up significantly in this case but Leafs refuse to accept the gift to pursue the heavy gamers who will show up when the game gets tight.

I've said for the last few years that I have come to terms with the fact that I will never realize a Cup in Toronto in my lifetime. There will be millions of other Leafs fans, often by default of birth or dads viewing habit mind you; who will also never see a Cup before they go into the Big Sleep.

This is the problem with a franchise that can be run like a government agency since the corporate revenue is so high, there is no pressure to actually win Championships.

 

[arso40]

It’s crazy you put them together for a game and old habits creep in I don’t like them together at all marner becomes predictable and knies becomes useless on the line

 

[Stephen]

It's the Leafs, so unlike the Rangers. TB or other more serious franchises, they won't make the difficult decisions. Stamkos was left to walk, no return, Trouba was given an ultimatum if he didn't want to wave his no-trade.

Win or lose (and TB have obviously done quite a bit of actual winning with Stamkos as captain), in the end they are in the business of winning championships or die trying. Sometimes this means tough decisions where you are objective. It's not personal, strictly business.

I would bet all of my worldly belongings that Tampa Bay could go through a minor rebuild and have a Cup winner before the Leafs with its current crop which is theoretically closer to the Cup would. I could say the same about numerous teams be it Boston, Carolina or others.

Leafs are in a far better place than these two teams as they have stars outside of Marner and young depth. The cap space currency value goes up significantly in this case but Leafs refuse to accept the gift to pursue the heavy gamers who will show up when the game gets tight.

I've said for the last few years that I have come to terms with the fact that I will never realize a Cup in Toronto in my lifetime. There will be millions of other Leafs fans, often by default of birth or dads viewing habit mind you; who will also never see a Cup before they go into the Big Sleep.

This is the problem with a franchise that can be run like a government agency since the corporate revenue is so high, there is no pressure to actually win Championships.

I don't see it as the Leafs acting like they don't have pressure to win and are thus complacent, but my theory is it has to do with Brendan Shanahan's sort of historical "do-over" and doing everything in his power to keep a homegrown core together for a championship pursuit despite all the trouble along the way.

I wasn't alive for the 1970s, but as Leafs fans we all know the damage done to the Sittler, McDonald, Salming, Nielsen era Leafs under Harold Ballard's ownership and Punch Imlach 2.0. I think those memories would have been important to Shanahan growing up as a kid and seeing the decades long damage done to a team run out of frustration, mandate change and internal turmoil. There's definitely another way to do things, but I do think the ultra conservative approach to the Big 4 has to do with avoiding catastrophic emotionally driven change.

 

[ACC1224]

You win if they perform in the playoffs. Simple as that. I think this coach can put them in a system that allows them to succeed where the prior coach could not.

Team sports is hard for some to understand. It takes all 20 pulling together, it’s not Tennis.

 

[Confucius]

Exactly. And they have fans that will eat it up. Case in point is this forum. Lotsa posters who don’t really have a clue but are happy to cheer regular season and couldn’t care less about actually competing post season.

Regular season takes up 7 months of my year. Yeah I care about it.

 

[therealkoho]

It's the Leafs, so unlike the Rangers. TB or other more serious franchises, they won't make the difficult decisions. Stamkos was left to walk, no return, Trouba was given an ultimatum if he didn't want to wave his no-trade.

Win or lose (and TB have obviously done quite a bit of actual winning with Stamkos as captain), in the end they are in the business of winning championships or die trying. Sometimes this means tough decisions where you are objective. It's not personal, strictly business.

I would bet all of my worldly belongings that Tampa Bay could go through a minor rebuild and have a Cup winner before the Leafs with its current crop which is theoretically closer to the Cup would. I could say the same about numerous teams be it Boston, Carolina or others.

Leafs are in a far better place than these two teams as they have stars outside of Marner and young depth. The cap space currency value goes up significantly in this case but Leafs refuse to accept the gift to pursue the heavy gamers who will show up when the game gets tight.

I've said for the last few years that I have come to terms with the fact that I will never realize a Cup in Toronto in my lifetime. There will be millions of other Leafs fans, often by default of birth or dads viewing habit mind you; who will also never see a Cup before they go into the Big Sleep.

This is the problem with a franchise that can be run like a government agency since the corporate revenue is so high, there is no pressure to actually win Championships.

Do you know the difference between you and those millionaires that own/control the Leafs, other than the mounds of cash they have access to? Nothing, absolutely nothing!

The reason they have crazy money is because of their competitive nature, these guys would beat up their mothers to make money.

 

[DarkKnight]

Pagnotta the other day said the cap could be 105 million in two years. Lebrun said it’s possibly going up a ton next two years.

 

[HolyCrap]

Regular season takes up 7 months of my year. Yeah I care about it.

I never said anything about reg season not being care worthy. I was pointing out the obvious. And you either know that or you’re still confused.

 

[Stephen]

Exactly. And they have fans that will eat it up. Case in point is this forum. Lotsa posters who don’t really have a clue but are happy to cheer regular season and couldn’t care less about actually competing post season.

Regular season success should be seen as a runway to playoff success in most cases. You play the brand that makes you successful, dial it up even more when the chips are down and away you go.

Only in this weird era of Leafs hockey are the two so disjointed and we have to talk about regular season games not mattering because there’s only so much “give a shit” to go around.

There are regular season games that don’t have implication on the standings but every night matters. We all spend our real time following this stuff.

 

[thewave]

Pagnotta the other day said the cap could be 105 million in two years. Lebrun said it’s possibly going up a ton next two years.

Can't they just project it and stabilize the system?

8 Year locked values --- 120m for 8 years --- Books then get looked at and if it's 150 or 160 next time around can be determined on past performance.

The way it is now is incredibly stupid.

Or make the max contract 5 years and the reevaluation is done every 5 years.