Mitch Marner Continued II

[kevsh]

While getting a single point wasnt great (I guess) , under that measurement, the Tampa stars are losers not worthy of the cup saved by their MVP goalie (shutouts in all 4 series deciders) and depth players (scored all the big goals in big games).

Its a team game man.

Not a great comparison when the Lightning star players delivered throughout the playoffs, like Kucherov who ran away with the post-season scoring title.

And you kind of defeat your own point (and prove mine) with them being saved by their "MVP goalie": He's a star player paid the big bucks to deliver results, and he certainly did.

Matthews did play well in game 7, no question. But Michael Jordan isn't remembered as an elite clutch player for how many shot attempts he got or how he drove possession in NBA Finals, it's because of how many shots he sunk. No one would be calling Justin Williams "Mr. Game 7" if he had 50 shots on net in all his game 7s but never scored any.

Of course, we can circle back to how the Leafs' star player's contracts are a key part of why Dubas hasn't been able to surround them with top-notch depth players like the Lightning did.

So, if you're a young star demanding the type of big bucks that limit the ability of your team to surround you with quality depth, the more they will rely on you to deliver, and you best be prepared to do just that or expect heat if you don't.

 

[Rogue Leader]

It's not his play, it's not his work ethic, it's how much he makes and the expectations that come with that.

Yes he had a bad series vs Montreal but I have no doubt if he made 8 million instead of 11 he would be one of the most likeable athletes in Toronto and everything would be different. Even 9 million people would be fine with it.

He's going to need to be top 5 in scoring every year (an unreasonable expectation) for him to be liked here and that's the sad reality.

The contract was botched and that's just the reality. I can move on but the collective fan base is not and maybe they shouldn't in a cap league where cap space is everything.

This right here. I would have no problem with Marner at 8-9M, but at his current salary I just can't stand him. For me he is a symbol of greed and everything wrong with the Leafs. I don't even think that he cares about the playoffs, since you play for free and why would he bother, since Dubas also doesn't seem to care when handing out those contracts. I hope I will be proved wrong in the future, but until then I firmly stand by my words!

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Oh man would he have a conniption. He is doing less damage in the bumper spot.

Surely he's a team first player ?

And understands a change is needed.

I'd be disappointed in myself if I were him, and I'd be making the suggestion myself.

A change will do him good.

 

[Notsince67]

Marner didnt score on the power play last year.
I think he needs a break from it. Focus on penalty kills.
He only had 3 more assists than Rielly on the PP, so its not like he's making up for it with passes.

Give the next 15 games to another player to see if things work out better. You need shooters out there on the PP.

Except the bumper role is not designed for shooting

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Best GAA and 2nd best SV% to the Conn Smythe winner. He was the problem.

Take a look at his stats the final 3 games.
Goes up to a 2.8 GAA and down to a 0.893 sv%.

He did great until it mattered. Then he like the rest of the team shit the bed

 

[IPS]

Playing by your rules, Marner was already a PPG playoff performer by this point and Ovi was already a choker. If he was so great, why couldnt he be clutch and drag his team over the playoff line? I dont think he was but I'm just playing by your standards.

Are we penalizing Ovechkin for having a crap team then? That sucks. I mean I literally just showed you that Ovechkin DID drag a crap team in the playoffs by scoring 65 goals but we should have expected even more from him?!

I don't think that's the standard I set at all but ok then.

In his first nine seasons, Ovi missed the playoffs 3 times and put up 67 points in 68 games while playing far worse D than Marner. Seeing as you crapped on Marner for being a PPG playoff performer as a 19-20 year old, you must really think Ovi is garbage right? I dont think so personally, just playing by your rules. One dimensional scorer who gave up on plays and his team underperformed. Choker.

I really feel like my points are being blatantly twisted here. 2 of those times Ovechkin missed were due to Washington being a horrible team, right at the beginning of their rebuild.

You claim you're playing by my rules but you're injecting new things into the conversation like adding years where Ovechkin wasn't even in the playoffs and excluding Marner's poor showings in the playoffs and only focusing on his 19-20 year old seasons.

Nope, Matthews and Marner both have slightly less production but way better defensive and underlying numbers. I remember Halaks run quite well. Price was very similar this year and Korpisalo's insane two week run is a massive outlier in the record books.

Ovechkin didnt need excuses? Theres been more articles and threads on fansites devoted to that than anything written about the Leafs up to the point he finally won a cup. How can you remember Halaks run and not that stuff?

Was it me personally or something coming up with those articles making excuses for him? No, I just f***ing told you in the last post that it was Washington's depth that failed to show that year, NOT Ovechkin himself. COMPLETE opposite to what happened to us last year.

I think the toxicity of contract negotiations and cap hits has really muddied the water so badly it's hard for anyone to crawl out of it.

Wrong. What those contract negotiations did was create EXPECTATIONS for Marner in the playoffs, expectations that he has not lived up to. This isn't up for debate. I've been over the toxicity of those negotiations for awhile now.

The best tip I can give is to stop projecting cap hits onto players. The players don't even negotiate the contracts so why hold it against them and yet you see people talking like their were sitting down at the table trying to bend the team over or something. Marner isnt Ovi but he was voted the best RW in the game last year, 4th in points and top ten defensive forward. Take the top 20 salaries and he's easily in the top ten earning his money and Overall, the three big RFA's are earning their money. I hate all the cap talk TBH.

Right with you on this one. But as Waffles like to say - outrageous contracts come with outrageous expectations, ones that Marner has failed to meet in the playoffs.

 

[ToneDog]

Surely he's a team first player ?

And understands a change is needed.

I'd be disappointed in myself if I were him, and I'd be making the suggestion myself.

A change will do him good.

Interesting that Bunkis was discussing Marner in the bumper position with Kyper and thinks Spezza would be a better option. Kyper said good luck because you have to play the players that are making the big bucks and they should be playing most of the 2 minutes. Personally I think either Rielly or Marner needs to be moved from the #1 PP.

Also interesting was that Kyper thinks Spezza threw Matty and Marner under the bus when he said he would take less to win if he could. LOL.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

This right here. I would have no problem with Marner at 8-9M, but at his current salary I just can't stand him. For me he is a symbol of greed and everything wrong with the Leafs. I don't even think that he cares about the playoffs, since you play for free and why would he bother, since Dubas also doesn't seem to care when handing out those contracts. I hope I will be proved wrong in the future, but until then I firmly stand by my words!

He cares about winning .. it is just as a player he cares more about getting his contract and $$$ .. gotta remember chasing da show is every kids dream and once there next dream is getting a huge contract .. some guys once they got contract and $$$ really aren't killin it for a Cup .. which is why smart play is to pay guys after they got a Cup .. but this is entirely on MGMT not da player

 

[Gabriel426]

Interesting that Bunkis was discussing Marner in the bumper position with Kyper and thinks Spezza would be a better option. Kyper said good luck because you have to play the players that are making the big bucks and they should be playing most of the 2 minutes. Personally I think either Rielly or Marner needs to be moved from the #1 PP.

Also interesting was that Kyper thinks Spezza threw Matty and Marner under the bus when he said he would take less to win if he could. LOL.

Well I agree with Kyper about having Spezza in PP1, assuming he takes Marner’s spot. Having 4 guys that have a shot on the PP is always better than having 3 guys.

 

[bbgobie]

He cares about winning .. it is just as a player he cares more about getting his contract and $$$ .. gotta remember chasing da show is every kids dream and once there next dream is getting a huge contract .. some guys once they got contract and $$$ really aren't killin it for a Cup .. which is why smart play is to pay guys after they got a Cup .. but this is entirely on MGMT not da player

I think there was a baseball player asked about what he was looking for to sign as a FA. And roughly his answer was something like
Competitive team, good city to live in, low taxes, nice weather, big money, etc.
In essence saying everything is saying nothing.

I'm sure every player wants to win to some extent, no one wants to lose 82 games. The importance of each is what counts. And nothing against Marner, he's totally entitled to that contract.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I think there was a baseball player asked about what he was looking for to sign as a FA. And roughly his answer was something like
Competitive team, good city to live in, low taxes, nice weather, big money, etc.
In essence saying everything is saying nothing.

I'm sure every player wants to win to some extent, no one wants to lose 82 games. The importance of each is what counts. And nothing against Marner, he's totally entitled to that contract.

Yes .. da difference from 10+ years ago to today is no one got paid before either winning a Cup and/or putting up big numbers for 7-9 years .. now these kids are getting paid before they really do anything .. so why wouldn't they demand it .. Leafs could have said sorry we can't make your demands work inside our CAP .. then force Marner to get an offer and take 4 1st rounders or accept market deal .. bottom line no other NHL team would have tried to mess with Leafs and Mitch would have sat out start of season much like Willy did .. team should have waited out da year no biggie and offered an 8 year deal at 8M .. at some point Marners would have taken da $$$ as they needed it back then .. but we had a goodie to shoes GM who wants to be your friend not your boss .. pretty simple stuff .. a rook GM got boned

 

[Dekes For Days]

da difference from 10+ years ago to today is no one got paid before either winning a Cup and/or putting up big numbers for 7-9 years ..

That's not even remotely true. These type of post-ELC cap hit percentages were given to young superstars since the very beginning of the cap era, without cups or 7-9 years of elite production. The only thing that's changed is the cap increasing, resulting in higher dollar amounts.

 

[34]

Hopefully this is just a slow start for Marner. If not, that is going to look like the worst contract in the NHL.

 

[Racer88]

Hopefully this is just a slow start for Marner. If not, that is going to look like the worst contract in the NHL.

Already does…..

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yes .. da difference from 10+ years ago to today is no one got paid before either winning a Cup and/or putting up big numbers for 7-9 years .. now these kids are getting paid before they really do anything .. so why wouldn't they demand it .. Leafs could have said sorry we can't make your demands work inside our CAP .. then force Marner to get an offer and take 4 1st rounders or accept market deal .. bottom line no other NHL team would have tried to mess with Leafs and Mitch would have sat out start of season much like Willy did .. team should have waited out da year no biggie and offered an 8 year deal at 8M .. at some point Marners would have taken da $$$ as they needed it back then .. but we had a goodie to shoes GM who wants to be your friend not your boss .. pretty simple stuff .. a rook GM got boned

My theory is that Dubas was too young/inexperienced to have any leverage. And Marner's agent banked on that.

After essentially caving to Nylander and than losing him for an entire season (7 goals/27 points?), Marner's agent knew he could use that to his advantage. If Marner sat out a part season (and then was invisible all year like Nylander) or actually did sit out the whole season, there is a legitimate possibility that Dubas would be fired. The better gamble for Dubas is to give in to Marner, give him his unprecedented dramatic overpayment, and hope to hell he lives up to it. Because if rookie Dubas got fired, that's likely it for his gm career (see jfj).

Now imagine it was still Lou (note: I am NOT saying he's perfect with his contracts, so don't bother with that.)

But again, let's take Lou in this precise situation. Let's say Lou plays hardball and Marner sits for the season. If Lou gets fired, that is NOT it for his career. He signs with the Islanders or some other team the very next day. He had WAY more leverage in the situation than rookie Dubas.

And in this situation, it isn't really even Dubas' fault. He was faced with a choice... What's more likely to get me fired and ruin my gm career? Massively overpaying Marner and hoping he lives up to it? Or a Nylander sit out situation where we lose a full season of Marner? He chose the former. Which was probably safer for him.

 

[34]

Already does…..

Yeah, it is in the conversation for sure.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That's not even remotely true. These type of post-ELC cap hit percentages were given to young superstars since the very beginning of the cap era, without cups or 7-9 years of elite production. The only thing that's changed is the cap increasing, resulting in higher dollar amounts.

I was talking about before Crosby, Weber etc in 2012 that is why i stated 10+ years ago .. read .. and pre CAP yes there were a few real good deals for us players back then too

 

[JT AM da real deal]

My theory is that Dubas was too young/inexperienced to have any leverage. And Marner's agent banked on that.

After essentially caving to Nylander and than losing him for an entire season (7 goals/27 points?), Marner's agent knew he could use that to his advantage. If Marner sat out a part season (and then was invisible all year like Nylander) or actually did sit out the whole season, there is a legitimate possibility that Dubas would be fired. The better gamble for Dubas is to give in to Marner, give him his unprecedented dramatic overpayment, and hope to hell he lives up to it. Because if rookie Dubas got fired, that's likely it for his gm career (see jfj).

Now imagine it was still Lou (note: I am NOT saying he's perfect with his contracts, so don't bother with that.)

But again, let's take Lou in this precise situation. Let's say Lou plays hardball and Marner sits for the season. If Lou gets fired, that is NOT it for his career. He signs with the Islanders or some other team the very next day. He had WAY more leverage in the situation than rookie Dubas.

And in this situation, it isn't really even Dubas' fault. He was faced with a choice... What's more likely to get me fired and ruin my gm career? Massively overpaying Marner and hoping he lives up to it? Or a Nylander sit out situation where we lose a full season of Marner? He chose the former. Which was probably safer for him.

It does not matter Dubie will be fired this year anywho .. signing 4 forwards was insanely stupid especially 2 wingers

 

[4thline]

I was talking about before Crosby, Weber etc in 2012 that is why i stated 10+ years ago .. read .. and pre CAP yes there were a few real good deals for us players back then too

So was he. Massive money by cap percentage coming off ELC's was the norm in the early cap days. The ~2012 era was actually depressive on cap hits because of Crosby's fixation on the numbers 8 7 and back diving deals.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I was talking about before Crosby, Weber etc in 2012 that is why i stated 10+ years ago .. read ..

I was talking about the early cap era as well.

 

[glue]

It's not his play, it's not his work ethic, it's how much he makes and the expectations that come with that.

Yes he had a bad series vs Montreal but I have no doubt if he made 8 million instead of 11 he would be one of the most likeable athletes in Toronto and everything would be different. Even 9 million people would be fine with it.

He's going to need to be top 5 in scoring every year (an unreasonable expectation) for him to be liked here and that's the sad reality.

The contract was botched and that's just the reality. I can move on but the collective fan base is not and maybe they shouldn't in a cap league where cap space is everything.

For the most part I agree, but even if Marner signed a 8/9 mil contract but sucked like he did the past playoffs, he would still be targeted to an extent as one of top players on the leafs. The contract just made it worse, and as the video pointed out his demeanour following all this hasn't been good, as a leader he has to own it and say, 'I wasn't good enough and didn't play to my potential, but I will'.

 

[Gabriel426]

So we are comparing Marner to a Generational Talent-Crosby. Who scored over 30 goals and 100 pts in his rookie season. The face of not only the Pens but the NHL. Then led his team to Three Cups and 4 Finals. Not to mention a lock for Team Canada even when he is out injured.

Regardless of how much Cap% Sid signed after his ELC, he delivered in the regular season and playoffs with Cup, in his next two seasons after he signed the contract.

I am not going to get into whether or not Marner deserves his contract as it is an endless loop. The fact is the core of the Leafs as of now could not get anything done in the playoffs, I mean they have not even win 4 games in a series. How can any Leafs fans be okay with that? I really don't care about insane goaltending or these players got chances but just could not convert....thats all excuses. Listening to they created chances but got tough luck is the same as somebody saying here is a cheque for your hard work but don't cash it bc there is no money in the account.

 

[4thline]

So we are comparing Marner to a Generational Talent-Crosby.

No, we're refuting a flat out erroneous statement. We're comparing Marner to talented but flawed wingers that never won shit like Nash/Kovalchuk/Heatley and rejecting the idea of any kind of post cap good ole days when young stars didn't paid.

 

[Jojalu]

He cares about winning .. it is just as a player he cares more about getting his contract and $$$ .. gotta remember chasing da show is every kids dream and once there next dream is getting a huge contract .. some guys once they got contract and $$$ really aren't killin it for a Cup .. which is why smart play is to pay guys after they got a Cup .. but this is entirely on MGMT not da player

Also completely unrealistic as most players never win the Cup.

 

[Anthrax442]

My theory is that Dubas was too young/inexperienced to have any leverage. And Marner's agent banked on that.

After essentially caving to Nylander and than losing him for an entire season (7 goals/27 points?), Marner's agent knew he could use that to his advantage. If Marner sat out a part season (and then was invisible all year like Nylander) or actually did sit out the whole season, there is a legitimate possibility that Dubas would be fired. The better gamble for Dubas is to give in to Marner, give him his unprecedented dramatic overpayment, and hope to hell he lives up to it. Because if rookie Dubas got fired, that's likely it for his gm career (see jfj).

Now imagine it was still Lou (note: I am NOT saying he's perfect with his contracts, so don't bother with that.)

But again, let's take Lou in this precise situation. Let's say Lou plays hardball and Marner sits for the season. If Lou gets fired, that is NOT it for his career. He signs with the Islanders or some other team the very next day. He had WAY more leverage in the situation than rookie Dubas.

And in this situation, it isn't really even Dubas' fault. He was faced with a choice... What's more likely to get me fired and ruin my gm career? Massively overpaying Marner and hoping he lives up to it? Or a Nylander sit out situation where we lose a full season of Marner? He chose the former. Which was probably safer for him.

1. Lou was here to do Nylander early and he di'int.

1.5 Lou's idiotic bonus rule made Marner negotiate for every penny

2. Didn't really cave for Nylander, even back then the contract was fine.

3. I believe that someone from above Shanny pushed for them to get the contract done and save the franchise the embarrassment twice.