Mitch Marner Continued II

[Nineteen67]

Ovie is likable where Marner is not.

 

[saffronleaf]

Clarkson and Marleau were both UFAs. Marner's contract was an assault to the entire NHL salary structure it was so out of whack. Rantanen waited out the Marner contract and still was not able to get anywhere close to it. I have a hard time understanding how Marner is better than Rantanen, I certainly have it the opposite. I understand Marner has had some high end point totals, but he brings little else to the game: he still plays junior hockey, he does flybys, he won't engage physically, he can't score to save his life. He's basically the player we all feared Nylander would become: soft as butter and full of himself. He should be paid at the lowest end possible of his point total based on all of his flaws and dependence on others for production.

I don't think it's that big of a deal anymore and we should just enjoy the season.

But that said I'll never ever understand how Dubas gave him a hair over the ~$10.5m threshold for getting 4 1st round picks.

Just offer him $10, if someone comes in under the threshold, match; if above threshold, take the 4 1sts.

 

[Optimist]

One thing that Marner has gotten really good at this year is throwing his head back and rolling his eyes into the back of his head. One of, if not the best in the league at it.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

One thing that Marner has gotten really good at this year is throwing his head back and rolling his eyes into the back of his head. One of, if not the best in the league at it.

He is better at it than Tavares is when he looks at his stick when he misses an open net...talk about elite...

 

[Stephen]

It's also not the damning statement other people might make it out to be.

If we accepted the fact that Auston Matthews is Batman to this franchise and Marner is a highly productive Robin type sidekick I think we can at least accept that and come to peace with whatever Marner's limitations might be. He's a really productive player and he can unburden himself of unreasonable expectations to be more than that. With Nylander improving, we basically are paying the pair of them a$9 million salary each, so we get a discount on Willy which averages down Mitch.

That brings us to John Tavares, who is probably giving us the least bang for the buck. For a guy whose reputation is great habits and lead by example, he just has such a low floor when he's not on.

 

[Anthrax442]

With Nylander improving, we basically are paying the pair of them a$9 million salary each, so we get a discount on Willy which averages down Mitch.
.

 

[Stephen]

It's exactly how it works. $6.9 million + $10.9 is a total cap hit of $17.8 million for Nylander and Marner, which averages out to about $8.9 million each. Nylander is overachieving at his cap hit and working his way up to $8.9 million and Marner is underachieving at his. I'll leave others to decide how much. The only unfair aspect of this is Nylander's actual take home.

 

[Gabriel426]

It's exactly how it works. $6.9 million + $10.9 is a total cap hit of $17.8 million for Nylander and Marner, which averages out to about $8.9 million each. Nylander is overachieving at his cap hit and working his way up to $8.9 million and Marner is underachieving at his. I'll leave others to decide how much. The only unfair aspect of this is Nylander's actual take home.

Thats a very interesting way to look at it. It is the same as just dividing 81.5mil by 22 players, that way your top paying players will rarely be over paid.
The fact is Marner and JT need to produce points. They are getting their chances the last two games and their goals and points will come but to say stuff like average out their salaries in order to not feel they are overpaid, that’s just lying to yourself.
Just produce and win the Cup and nobody is overpaid.

 

[DraftSchmaft]

Ovie is likable where Marner is not.

Reporter: Mr.Ovechkin, are you better than Marner?

Mr.Ovechkin:

 

[Stephen]

Thats a very interesting way to look at it. It is the same as just dividing 81.5mil by 22 players, that way your top paying players will rarely be over paid.
The fact is Marner and JT need to produce points. They are getting their chances the last two games and their goals and points will come but to say stuff like average out their salaries in order to not feel they are overpaid, that’s just lying to yourself.
Just produce and win the Cup and nobody is overpaid.

Well, I'm not a big Marner guy so I don't think I'm being delusional. Just pointing out that when Marner is productive as Matthews sidekick we do get a lot of value from him even at that bloated cap hit (free to debate how bloated) that's underwritten by Nylander getting better. Is Marner a big playoff performer and clutch player? It doesn't look like it at this stage of his career. Will he lead us to a cup? I don't know. But generally I think I'm okay with a Matthews, Nylander, Marner trio, but like I said before, Tavares is the overpay, and seems like he's going to be untouchable just because of his iron clad contract.

 

[egd27]

LOL really now?

I'm just gonna go ahead and assume you just completely made shit up. Congrats pal.

I'm still waiting for him to tell me all the years Ovie choked in the playoffs.

Not a lot of substance in those posts.

 

[Gabriel426]

Well, I'm not a big Marner guy so I don't think I'm being delusional. Just pointing out that when Marner is productive as Matthews sidekick we do get a lot of value from him even at that bloated cap hit (free to debate how bloated) that's underwritten by Nylander getting better. Is Marner a big playoff performer and clutch player? It doesn't look like it at this stage of his career. Will he lead us to a cup? I don't know. But generally I think I'm okay with a Matthews, Nylander, Marner trio, but like I said before, Tavares is the overpay, and seems like he's going to be untouchable just because of his iron clad contract.

To me all players over 10mil are overpaid in the NHL, that’s include McD and my fav Toews.

Don’t really like to get into contracts bc like I said, as long as Leafs win the Cup, I could careless about contracts or draft picks.

 

[ToneDog]

To me all players over 10mil are overpaid in the NHL, that’s include McD and my fav Toews.

Don’t really like to get into contracts bc like I said, as long as Leafs win the Cup, I could careless about contracts or draft picks.

If there was no cap, nobody would care how much each player makes. With a hard cap in place, there is too much talk about how much players make because it affects trades and the ability to sign UFAs. FFS we had to play a university backup and teams have had to play a dman or forward short due to the cap. All this because Bettman does not put the good of the game ahead of the all mighty dollar.

 

[Zybalto]

I'm still waiting for him to tell me all the years Ovie choked in the playoffs.

Not a lot of substance in those posts.

Unfair criticism about being a choker was always leveled at Ovi, one of the special players in the game.

That being said, the "controller disconnected" Ovi memes did exist for a reason and Marner is leaps and bounds a better defensive winger than Ovi ever was and if Ovi wasnt scoring the lights out, was not nearly the benefit Marner is.

In the 2012+2013 playoffs, Ovi only had 11 points in 21 games, awful underlying numbers and a 37% 5v5 goal differential as he was more a passenger than a leader on those Caps teams (smack dab in the middle of his prime years). Even though they won a series as an underdog, it had more to do with breakout star Holtby and his .940 save% that series than anyone else (Having the better goaltending can win a series. Who knew?). Maybe it's times like this that gave him the rep but every player has stretches like these, even the great 8. A younger Marner is being roasted for 8 points in 12 games with elite underlying numbers with far less goaltending help over the last two playoffs.

Give the kid a break. I can only imagine the pitchforks that would have been out for Ovi and Backstrom around here for the same performance. Couldnt even defend him with good analytics.

Hell, Matthews himself has 11 points his last 12 games and was easily the best player in the series last year outside of maybe Price and gets ripped on.

 

[Gabriel426]

If there was no cap, nobody would care how much each player makes. With a hard cap in place, there is too much talk about how much players make because it affects trades and the ability to sign UFAs. FFS we had to play a university backup and teams have had to play a dman or forward short due to the cap. All this because Bettman does not put the good of the game ahead of the all mighty dollar.

I think it was the owners who wanted the cap bc that will limit their spending.
Personally, I am all for a luxury tax on teams who can afford to pay it as long as they are in the black. If these luxury tax teams hits red, they need to move salaries out. Luxury tax should be 1-2 or 3, every dollar over the tax is 2-3 dollars.
I am also for transfer fees to help teams with their finance when it comes to trading players or picks.
I would even let teams to sell their draft picks for fees. But both these fees earn by selling clubs must be use on their roster building like signing players. While the fees paid by the signing clubs must be profits they gained over the past season or two and not from ownership money.

 

[Gabriel426]

Unfair criticism about being a choker was always leveled at Ovi, one of the special players in the game.

That being said, the "controller disconnected" Ovi memes did exist for a reason and Marner is leaps and bounds a better defensive winger than Ovi ever was and if Ovi wasnt scoring the lights out, was not nearly the benefit Marner is.

In the 2012+2013 playoffs, Ovi only had 11 points in 21 games, awful underlying numbers and a 37% 5v5 goal differential as he was more a passenger than a leader on those Caps teams (smack dab in the middle of his prime years). Even though they won a series as an underdog, it had more to do with breakout star Holtby and his .940 save% that series than anyone else (Having the better goaltending can win a series. Who knew?). Maybe it's times like this that gave him the rep but every player has stretches like these, even the great 8. A younger Marner is being roasted for 8 points in 12 games with elite underlying numbers with far less goaltending help over the last two playoffs.

Give the kid a break. I can only imagine the pitchforks that would have been out for Ovi and Backstrom around here for the same performance. Couldnt even defend him with good analytics.

Hell, Matthews himself has 11 points his last 12 games and was easily the best player in the series last year outside of maybe Price and gets ripped on.

We are not really Caps fans or live in Washington(at least I don’t think anyone here is), so we really don’t know how Caps fans reacted back then, might be even worst than us.
Just like someone asked how come Benning is getting a pass with the Nucks and Dubas is getting so much heat on another thread. I replied that post by stating I live in Vancouver and Bennings gets it worse than Dubas but TSN and Sportsnet don’t really say anything until it is nuclear.
When team top players are not performing, they will get criticize, it happens in any sports and in any cities with passionate fans.

 

[Ashdown2]

its game 4 ? .
how pointless is this this thread when everything averages back to normal by game 20 ............

im sure buffalo will not lose a game all year, kopitar will lead the league in goals, greiss will win the vezina etc.

 

[glue]

Thought this was a good perspective on Marner currently

 

[Byron Bitz]

It's exactly how it works. $6.9 million + $10.9 is a total cap hit of $17.8 million for Nylander and Marner, which averages out to about $8.9 million each. Nylander is overachieving at his cap hit and working his way up to $8.9 million and Marner is underachieving at his. I'll leave others to decide how much. The only unfair aspect of this is Nylander's actual take home.

So your saying when your team has an overpaid player all you have to do is average it out with an underpaid player and you no longer have an overpaid player?

 

[IPS]

Give the kid a break. I can only imagine the pitchforks that would have been out for Ovi and Backstrom around here for the same performance. Couldnt even defend him with good analytics.

They had plenty of good runs before that..

Marner did not. He did nothing in the past that earns him any benefit of the doubt.

 

[Stonehands1990]

He is better at it than Tavares is when he looks at his stick when he misses an open net...talk about elite...

These 2 are gonna be the end of us. We DO NOT have 3 forwards that are McDavid tier but we pay like we do

 

[Puckstuff]

Thought this was a good perspective on Marner currently

It's not his play, it's not his work ethic, it's how much he makes and the expectations that come with that.

Yes he had a bad series vs Montreal but I have no doubt if he made 8 million instead of 11 he would be one of the most likeable athletes in Toronto and everything would be different. Even 9 million people would be fine with it.

He's going to need to be top 5 in scoring every year (an unreasonable expectation) for him to be liked here and that's the sad reality.

The contract was botched and that's just the reality. I can move on but the collective fan base is not and maybe they shouldn't in a cap league where cap space is everything.

 

[Stephen]

So your saying when your team has an overpaid player all you have to do is average it out with an underpaid player and you no longer have an overpaid player?

That’s cap management… what do you think productive ELCs are for?

 

[HellasLEAF]

Don Lou is partly to blame for this. Got cheap unnecessarily with Marner early days a future team star this was short sighted and foolish. Won a small temporary battle but ultimately lost the war with Mitch/Dad/Agent.

The rest falls on Dubas for me. Was put in a tough spot but wheras he held firm with Willy he caved too Marner.

Hope he lives up to the money but has ultimately sullied his rep with the fanbase. Unless that is he comes good in the playoffs which is uncertain.

 

[Antropovsky]

It's not his play, it's not his work ethic, it's how much he makes and the expectations that come with that.

Yes he had a bad series vs Montreal but I have no doubt if he made 8 million instead of 11 he would be one of the most likeable athletes in Toronto and everything would be different. Even 9 million people would be fine with it.

He's going to need to be top 5 in scoring every year (an unreasonable expectation) for him to be liked here and that's the sad reality.

The contract was botched and that's just the reality. I can move on but the collective fan base is not and maybe they shouldn't in a cap league where cap space is everything.

Agreed, I go back to this alot but I will say it again, in his speech he mentioned liking the expectations the fans in Toronto have..... fast forward two seasons later and now hes constantly making reference to not being on social media, it being toxic and not reading articles.

The social media and articles are a result of his contract. These demons he created.