Truthfully I think Marner would've got greedy regardless of what Lou did. If anything Lou saved the team money then. McDavid got 12.5 and the Marners think theyre in the same category as him.
Mitch Marner Continued II
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- Oct 9, 2019
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Exactly, it's a bad contract because it's impossible for him to outplay it.
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Wiseguys
57 years now and still hoping.
- Feb 5, 2018
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Reading all these opinions and with my thoughts, what I get out of it, is that with the current salary cap system is flawed, it definetly works against the teams.
The teams have no guarantee that the players will live up to their contracts. But the players are guaranteed their money regardless of their performance.
My quick thoughts are that the salary cap needs an overhaul, to protect teams from bad contracts.
Something in the lines of players coming off of a ELC can only be signed upto a max term of 3 years, upto a max % of the salary cap, and the player is still a RFA,
on his next contract, upto a max term, and % again of another 3 years maybe, or a certain age before they become an UFA.
The teams will have better protection, and the players will have to perform to earn their next contract. It will give teams more flexibility, and cap space if let's say max payment is 8, 9, or 10%. It will have to be implemented to new players coming into the league. Something needs to be done.
The teams have no guarantee that the players will live up to their contracts. But the players are guaranteed their money regardless of their performance.
My quick thoughts are that the salary cap needs an overhaul, to protect teams from bad contracts.
Something in the lines of players coming off of a ELC can only be signed upto a max term of 3 years, upto a max % of the salary cap, and the player is still a RFA,
on his next contract, upto a max term, and % again of another 3 years maybe, or a certain age before they become an UFA.
The teams will have better protection, and the players will have to perform to earn their next contract. It will give teams more flexibility, and cap space if let's say max payment is 8, 9, or 10%. It will have to be implemented to new players coming into the league. Something needs to be done.
Tough to compare really
Marner helped lead the Leafs to a highly unexpected playoff spot in his rookie year and was PPG in the playoffs his first 2 years as a 19-20 year old on underdog teams. (What a nothing performance eh)
Ovi didn't even make the playoffs his first two years and the "plenty of good runs" amounted to three first-round wins in 9 years up to that point. There are reasons why he didnt find more postseason success and it just strengthens my side of the argument as Ovechkin struggles more or less props up the reasons why Marner is being unfairly maligned.
Ovi is the greatest goal scorer in history and one of the most dynamic beasts ever seen on the ice and only scored 3 single round wins in 9 years as the highest cap hit player ever seen. Why?
It's a team game man and Ovi never had a special team until the group that eventually won the cup and they got lucky things came together at the very end of that core's run and even that run was predicated on Holtby going all world for one last time. (Having the better goaltender again pays dividends). The Leafs team in front of the goaltenders are now regularly outplaying teams every night. If the Leafs had a stud playoff goalie they may have already won the cup. Plain and simple.
kevsh
Registered User
- Nov 28, 2018
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Unfortunately, scoring chances mean nothing if you don't score. A performance by a star player in the playoffs, especially in a game 7, is measured by results.
While getting a single point wasnt great (I guess) , under that measurement, the Tampa stars are losers not worthy of the cup saved by their MVP goalie (shutouts in all 4 series deciders) and depth players (scored all the big goals in big games).
Its a team game man.
Its a team game for sure. However the leafs roster is not built that way. It is built to live and die with how their too 6 produces. If Matthews/Marner are held off the score sheet they are probably going to get beaten.
So did Ovechkin. In his 3rd season, Ovechkin's legendary 65 goal season propelled the caps from last place earlier in the season into the playoffs. Marner's done nothing even remotely comparable to that.
He'd be unfairly maligned if he actually put up results in the postseason. He didn't. In Ovechkin's 2nd playoff run he utterly killed it, 11 goals in 14 games with 21 points and Washington lost to the cup winners Pittsburgh.
This isn't at all what you're trying to make it out to be.
Still better than Toronto did. With Ovechkin producing great along the way - again - unlike Marner and Matthews.
Remember the hot goalie excuse you bring up non-stop to excuse our players for their shitty production in the postseason? Were you around to watch what Halak was like in the 2010 playoffs? It was way more next-level than anything we faced the last 2 years.
Thankfully Ovechkin didn't need an excuse, he showed up anyway against a near unbeatable goalie and still put up 5 goals and 10 points against him. Had the Caps depth scoring actually showed up, they win that series. Precise opposite of our series last year.
Correct but not exactly.
The Leafs are built to a big 4 model where is one pairing isn't scoring, the next will pick things up. Tavares (who was playing his best hockey of the year) getting hurt really messed things up but even then the team was finding a way (with the top 2 lines still crushing the other side) but once the goaltending differential became too one sided, it was over.
The team can take getting outdepthed but getting outgoalied year after year really hurts the most.
Tampa won their last 3 series deciding games scoring only 4 goals. The Leafs were far more dominant in their games in every way but lost their last three scoring 6 goals.
Zeroing in on Marner after the great year he had is a little bizarre tbh.
The issue is it seems like the 2 pairs are never firing at the same time and it hasn't been too difficult to shutdown both pairs in the last couple playoffs. Obviously JT injury changes things, though it did allow Nylander to be the main driver on his line and he looked amazing.
The issue I see is that I don't forsee the goalie situation changing. The leafs spend such a small amount on goalies due to the massive amount spent on the top 6. As a result chances are they will be playing against a better goalie most playoff series because other teams prioritize cap towards goalies while the leafs, not as much.
If a good goalie is all that is required to shutdown a like 25 million dollar line, then why aren't we spending more on goalies?
Also think part of it is the leafs lack of killer instict making other goalies look better in key games. Can't count the amount of times shots completely missed the net from in tight or the shot was directly into the logo. Yet somehow other teams when they get a breakaway they always seem to score. Granted Campbell did have a poor final 2 or so games.
I would be very interested to see the leafs shooting % in the playoffs in non deciding games vs deciding games. I'm guessing it is far lower in deciding games.
Marner is far too much in his own head. Hopefully he can shake off the negativity
Playing by your rules, Marner was already a PPG playoff performer by this point and Ovi was already a choker. If he was so great, why couldnt he be clutch and drag his team over the playoff line? I dont think he was but I'm just playing by your standards.
In his first nine seasons, Ovi missed the playoffs 3 times and put up 67 points in 68 games while playing far worse D than Marner. Seeing as you crapped on Marner for being a PPG playoff performer as a 19-20 year old, you must really think Ovi is garbage right? I dont think so personally, just playing by your rules. One dimensional scorer who gave up on plays and his team underperformed. Choker.
Nope, Matthews and Marner both have slightly less production but way better defensive and underlying numbers. I remember Halaks run quite well. Price was very similar this year and Korpisalo's insane two week run is a massive outlier in the record books.
Ovechkin didnt need excuses? Theres been more articles and threads on fansites devoted to that than anything written about the Leafs up to the point he finally won a cup. How can you remember Halaks run and not that stuff?
I think the toxicity of contract negotiations and cap hits has really muddied the water so badly it's hard for anyone to crawl out of it.
The best tip I can give is to stop projecting cap hits onto players. The players don't even negotiate the contracts so why hold it against them and yet you see people talking like their were sitting down at the table trying to bend the team over or something. Marner isnt Ovi but he was voted the best RW in the game last year, 4th in points and top ten defensive forward. Take the top 20 salaries and he's easily in the top ten earning his money and Overall, the three big RFA's are earning their money. I hate all the cap talk TBH.
I think cap spending is all part of a bigger argument in that the cap is far lower than it should be and really screwed all the cap limit teams.
As far as Leaf goalies go, they have always been awful in series-deciding games while the team in front of them has been the far better team most of the time....and the goalies we have played havnt just did it against us but gone on to be stories of the playoffs. The shooting% thing is certainly something to talk about but it's not from lack of great setups. Its one of the reasons Marner has the highest xGF%s of any regular forward over the last two years. A mix of lockdown D and insane scoring chance creation but if the shots dont go in, you just look like a fool....but he still has been an elite player. The fact he has only 8 points in 12 games is a massive surprise to anyone who really watched him or looked at his other stats and its not a stretch to say his could be at 20-25 points if he had played, say, against a Tristan Jarry (lucky for the Isles, they got to face that trainwreck in the first round). We need at least solid goaltending to beat great goaltending and those last three games, Campbell had trouble saving anything that wasnt an open point shot (and even trouble on those too)
Goals saved above expected per 60
Korpisalo in 2020 playoffs: 0.801
Price in 2021 playoffs: 0.550
Halak in 2010 playoffs: 0.474
Korpisalo in 2020 playoffs: 0.801
Price in 2021 playoffs: 0.550
Halak in 2010 playoffs: 0.474
socko
Registered User
Agree that nobody would care without the cap. It would just be rich fools wasting money in that case. But I personally love the cap era. I don't believe we would have Auston Matthews without the cap, young franchise guy in his prime. We would have a bunch of 35 year old hasbeens. So would the Red Wings and Rangers. Meanwhile, small market teams would be noncompetitive. I just didn't enjoy that NHL at all.
To me I would like to go back to way it was in original 6 when hockey games were incredible every single night .. every team had 9 great forwards, D and a tender .. there was no slack on any team .. any team could win any given night .. there were superstars in waiting in minors .. D men only came up in mid 20's when ready .. tenders in late 20s .. Habs got 1st rights on every Quebec player .. Leafs got 1st rights on southern Ontario guys .. there was no draft and there was no CAP .. hockey was flat out vicious every night it was a playoff type game .. game today is flat out MEDIOCRE .. teams do not have full high end rosters where 3 guys could get sent down 1 night if they had a sh*t game and 3 guys from minors might help like in original 6 hockey
my problem with this isn’t your point about the team game and how our failures aren’t all on marner, my problem is that if ovi had 3 first round wins in 9 years, then marner has to advance every single year at this point to catch up because in 6 years marner has 0 first round advancements.
secondly ovi WAS much maligned prior to winning a cup, and it was indeed a source of constant criticism levelled against him. it’s hard to remember now that he is so beloved, but ovi had a ton of detractors in earlier years.
The is no denying that the flat cap hurt a lot of teams particularly those who signed big contracts right before covid like the Leafs. On the other hand without covid they probably don't lock down Brodie for so cheap etc so definitely a little give and take.
They have definitely been creating chances they just can't finish them. That is what I was trying to say with the lack of killer instinct. xGF is small sample sizes like 14 games isn't that impactful to me due to its inherent error and massive bias towards historically good shooters. I.e. if Matthews takes a shot from the exact same position as Marner, Matthews is given a higher xGF purely because of the name on the jersey. This type of circular/self fulfilling logic isn't great. I understand why they did it but it basically inflates xGF if you were a historically good shooter. Even if your throwing muffins into the stands.
Don't get me wrong, Marner is my favorite player and honestly as much blame should be put on the shooter on his line (Matthews) for only getting 1 goal in 7 games. Matthews had 1 5 on 5 goal and 1 5 on 5 assist (secondary assist at that). Marner had 2 primary assists and 1 secondary at 5 on 5. No matter how much you tilt the ice you have to make it count in the playoffs and the leafs are the furthest thing from clinical.
I too was surprised how much praise Jack Campbell got for his playoff performances when he was pretty terrible in the last couple games. Letting in some back breaking goals at very key moments. I can only imagine the flack Andy would have gotten for the exact same plays. I guess Campbell is the new guy so gets some extra leash but ya he was very poor in games 6 and 7 in particular
Ya I just said top 6 because all the leafs offensive talent plays on the top 2 lines. Top 4 just makes me think of defenders lol
socko
Registered User
HamiltonNHL
Resigning Marner == Running it back
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Marner didnt score on the power play last year.
I think he needs a break from it. Focus on penalty kills.
He only had 3 more assists than Rielly on the PP, so its not like he's making up for it with passes.
Give the next 15 games to another player to see if things work out better. You need shooters out there on the PP.
I think he needs a break from it. Focus on penalty kills.
He only had 3 more assists than Rielly on the PP, so its not like he's making up for it with passes.
Give the next 15 games to another player to see if things work out better. You need shooters out there on the PP.
socko
Registered User
Oh man would he have a conniption. He is doing less damage in the bumper spot.
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