Mitch Marner Continued II

[BlueForever75]

Even being in the top 10 in scoring isn’t good enough when you consider he’s in the top 5 in terms of salary.

So he is top 7 in salary and been top 5 in points the past 2 seasons. So is he worth it now?

When you look at the contract that Brady Tkachuk just signed and compare it to Marner. Marner has much more value and provides way more upside at his cost than Tkachuk!!!

People need to leave Marner alone. Seeing some of these contracts being handed out. I think Dubas did well in the contracts he signed with our 3 younger players. Way better value.

 

[Antropovsky]

By cap hit he is 7th. Is that ok now?

Do you think it's ok? No matter how well he does over the remainder of his contract, he already has guaranteed that he sucked in the playoffs for 33% of it. No powerplay goal in 75 games and no post season goal in 18 games.... safe to assume not alot are in the same company as he is.

 

[Zybalto]

By cap hit he is 7th. Is that ok now?

6th most points and 2nd most primary assists in the NHL since he signed the contract but we all know its the playoffs that are gonna change minds no matter what he does during the regular season.

Been a little snakebit (mostly by a number of other players not finishing) this year but his underlying offensive stats are off the charts to start the year.

For example, looking at the best individual scoring chance producers so far this year, he looks dominant:

All situations individual scoring chances so far this year:

1. Marner: 20 (1 point)
2. Arvidsson: 15 ( 2 points)
2. Nylander: 15 (4 points)
2. Rantanen: 15 (2 points)
5. Kucherov: 14 (4 points)
5. Norris: 14 (1 point)
5. Tavares: 14 (1 point)

Chances dont always equate to points but he's certainly been one of the most dominant offensive players in the league so far.

Getting the best finisher in the game back on his line will certainly help him.

 

[BlueForever75]

Do you think it's ok? No matter how well he does over the remainder of his contract, he already has guaranteed that he sucked in the playoffs for 33% of it. No powerplay goal in 75 games and no post season goal in 18 games.... safe to assume not alot are in the same company as he is.

Your right not alot are in the same company. Company of having: 359 pts in 358 games thus far in his 5 year career which had 2 seasons cut short by COVID!!!

Your absolutely right not too many in same company as he!

Oh did I forget to mention 25pts in 32 playoff games.

 

[BlueForever75]

6th most points and 2nd most primary assists in the NHL since he signed the contract but we all know its the playoffs that are gonna change minds no matter what he does during the regular season.

Been a little snakebit (mostly by a number of other players not finishing) this year but his underlying offensive stats are off the charts to start the year.

For example, looking at the best individual scoring chance producers so far this year, he looks dominant:

All situations individual scoring chances so far this year:

1. Marner: 20 (1 point)
2. Arvidsson: 15 ( 2 points)
2. Nylander: 15 (4 points)
2. Rantanen: 15 (2 points)
5. Kucherov: 14 (4 points)
5. Norris: 14 (1 point)
5. Tavares: 14 (1 point)

Chances dont always equate to points but he's certainly been one of the most dominant offensive players in the league so far.

Getting the best finisher in the game back on his line will certainly help him.

Thank you finally someone that speaks common sense.

 

[Notsince67]

Do you think it's ok? No matter how well he does over the remainder of his contract, he already has guaranteed that he sucked in the playoffs for 33% of it. No powerplay goal in 75 games and no post season goal in 18 games.... safe to assume not alot are in the same company as he is.

You think anybody remembers playoff numbers that dont end up with a cup?
Do you think PP goals are more important than EV goals given the time weights?
Do you really think there is anything anyone can say to change your mind given the pretzel you turn yourself into to make the most absurd comments to disparage a 1st team all star?

 

[Antropovsky]

You think anybody remembers playoff numbers that dont end up with a cup?
Do you think PP goals are more important than EV goals given the time weights?
Do you really think there is anything anyone can say to change your mind given the pretzel you turn yourself into to make the most absurd comments to disparage a 1st team all star?

Playoff numbers without a cup are most definitely remembered, thats a pretty ridiculous statement actually.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So he is top 7 in salary and been top 5 in points the past 2 seasons. So is he worth it now?

When you look at the contract that Brady Tkachuk just signed and compare it to Marner. Marner has much more value and provides way more upside at his cost than Tkachuk!!!

People need to leave Marner alone. Seeing some of these contracts being handed out. I think Dubas did well in the contracts he signed with our 3 younger players. Way better value.

If you don't care about the playoffs, he might come close to being worth it. Though sorting by points isn't enough, there is a lot more to player evaluation than sorting by points. There are also some Dmen and goalies that are more valuable than Marner regardless of the fact that they don't put up many points. Unless of course you think there aren't any Dmen or goalies in the NHL that aren't more valuable than Marner (I don't think that myself).

6th most points and 2nd most primary assists in the NHL since he signed the contract but we all know its the playoffs that are gonna change minds no matter what he does during the regular season.

Been a little snakebit (mostly by a number of other players not finishing) this year but his underlying offensive stats are off the charts to start the year.

For example, looking at the best individual scoring chance producers so far this year, he looks dominant:

All situations individual scoring chances so far this year:

1. Marner: 20 (1 point)
2. Arvidsson: 15 ( 2 points)
2. Nylander: 15 (4 points)
2. Rantanen: 15 (2 points)
5. Kucherov: 14 (4 points)
5. Norris: 14 (1 point)
5. Tavares: 14 (1 point)

Chances dont always equate to points but he's certainly been one of the most dominant offensive players in the league so far.

Getting the best finisher in the game back on his line will certainly help him.

100% this, and that's the way it should be.

 

[BlueForever75]

If you don't care about the playoffs, he might come close to being worth it. Though sorting by points isn't enough, there is a lot more to player evaluation than sorting by points. There are also some Dmen and goalies that are more valuable than Marner regardless of the fact that they don't put up many points. Unless of course you think there aren't any Dmen or goalies in the NHL that aren't more valuable than Marner (I don't think that myself).



100% this, and that's the way it should be.

What I am saying is what have players like McAvoy, B. Tkachuk, S. Jones, Panarin, McDavid, Karlsson, C. Price, Eichel, Seguin, Rantanen, Josi, D. Hamilton, Makar, Skinner, Kaprizov and there are more. But what have they all done in the playoffs that warrant their salaries then? None of them won Cups. All making in and around the same as Marner.

Other than McDavid and Price I wouldnt want any of them over Marner for what they provide at the cost they are being paid.

Do all these players have to produce in playoffs to mean what they do the NHL and its superstars?

 

[Racer88]

6th most points and 2nd most primary assists in the NHL since he signed the contract but we all know its the playoffs that are gonna change minds no matter what he does during the regular season.

Been a little snakebit (mostly by a number of other players not finishing) this year but his underlying offensive stats are off the charts to start the year.

For example, looking at the best individual scoring chance producers so far this year, he looks dominant:

All situations individual scoring chances so far this year:

1. Marner: 20 (1 point)
2. Arvidsson: 15 ( 2 points)
2. Nylander: 15 (4 points)
2. Rantanen: 15 (2 points)
5. Kucherov: 14 (4 points)
5. Norris: 14 (1 point)
5. Tavares: 14 (1 point)

Chances dont always equate to points but he's certainly been one of the most dominant offensive players in the league so far.

Getting the best finisher in the game back on his line will certainly help him.

No doubt he is able to get himself in good positions but he can’t finish.
Yes I expect him to rack up some points once the 2nd best player in the world is back in his line but for 11 million is it unreasonable for me to expect him to finish on his own once in awhile. There is a world of difference between getting in a good spot and actually putting it in the net.
I will give you that in his first few years he was even decent in the playoffs but not for the last 3 or in the last almost full year on the PP…….what happened to him

 

[Gary Nylund]

What I am saying is what have players like McAvoy, B. Tkachuk, S. Jones, Panarin, McDavid, Karlsson, C. Price, Eichel, Seguin, Rantanen, Josi, D. Hamilton, Makar, Skinner, Kaprizov and there are more. But what have they all done in the playoffs that warrant their salaries then? None of them won Cups. All making in and around the same as Marner.

Other than McDavid and Price I wouldnt want any of them over Marner for what they provide at the cost they are being paid.

Do all these players have to produce in playoffs to mean what they do the NHL and its superstars?

I'm too lazy to look up the numbers for all these guys but without looking, I know that some of these guys have played really well in the playoffs compared to Marner.

The bolded is cute, I'm pretty sure none of these guys makes as much as Marner. I think that's what you call spin, and spinning makes it hard to have a meaningful discussion so I suggest you stop. Unless of course meaningful discussion isn't what you're after, in that case have at it I guess.

BTW that list you gave is strange as it seems sensible to compare Marner to wingers which eliminates most of your list. Rantanen jumps out at me though, plays the same position and is in the habit of crushing it in the playoffs and has almost 2 million less cap hit. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the hockey world would choose Rantanen over Marner (if they cared about playoff success that is, a small market team that only cared about selling regular season tickets might take Marner I guess).

 

[Notsince67]

Playoff numbers without a cup are most definitely remembered, thats a pretty ridiculous statement actually.

Given that a rather small percentage of the few hundred nhl players don't win the cup in any given year, you seem to lack some self awareness on what is ridiculous.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Given that a rather small percentage of the few hundred nhl players don't win the cup in any given year, you seem to lack some self awareness on what is ridiculous.

Seems you completely missed the point of what he was saying. That being the case, your comments on self awareness are what's ridiculous in this exchange.

 

[ACC1224]

Good news, only 6 months or so of whining left until the playoffs start.
Better pace yourselves.

 

[Notsince67]

Good news, only 6 months or so of whining left until the playoffs start.
Better pace yourselves.

Please dont discourage them. I need to hear more about things like the Marner contract and something about the playoff and powerplay goals. Repeating about 3000 more times should give everyone sufficient insight.

 

[Aashir]

Good news, only 6 months or so of whining left until the playoffs start.
Better pace yourselves.

This threads been so boring that I only check it once ever week or so in hopes of seeing something new. I used to be apart of the other side too now I’m just sick of the same arguements.

 

[BlueForever75]

I'm too lazy to look up the numbers for all these guys but without looking, I know that some of these guys have played really well in the playoffs compared to Marner.

The bolded is cute, I'm pretty sure none of these guys makes as much as Marner. I think that's what you call spin, and spinning makes it hard to have a meaningful discussion so I suggest you stop. Unless of course meaningful discussion isn't what you're after, in that case have at it I guess.

BTW that list you gave is strange as it seems sensible to compare Marner to wingers which eliminates most of your list. Rantanen jumps out at me though, plays the same position and is in the habit of crushing it in the playoffs and has almost 2 million less cap hit. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the hockey world would choose Rantanen over Marner (if they cared about playoff success that is, a small market team that only cared about selling regular season tickets might take Marner I guess).

Panarin is a winger last I checked and has proven nothing in the playoffs. Rantanen makes 1.75 million less than Marner you are right. But last I checked he has won nothing in the playoffs since in the league. Colorado as a whole has been just as disappointing. But your right if we are talking about points and getting out of round 1 yes Rantanen is a way better player!!!

I believe hockey is a team sport is it not? So if your linemates go cold or are shut down it means team most likely loses if your not producing? I think thats the way it works normally. Especially if your a top 5 point producer annually.

But than again you could be McDavid and produce in playoffs and your team still exits early each playoffs. Cause again it is a team sport.

Not sure exactly why everyone is blaming Marner. Makes literally no sense. Especially coming from some that I have the utmost respect for on this forum for years. You guys should know better.

 

[Gabriel426]

This is thread is by far the most toxic thread on this board.
There is no doubt Marner can produce points in the regular season the question is can he do it in the playoffs? He certainly has not been producing in the playoffs the last three seasons.
No doubt Hockey is a team sports, but as the top players on the team, they need to perform. If any teams in any sports lost 5 1st rouunds in a row with pretty much the same top players, it is normal to ask if these top players can get it done? Heck before Jordan and the Bulls winning their first title, people stated can MJ gets it done or is he just a great individual player but can't win the BIG one. MJ actually led the Bulls to Conf. Finals.
I really don't understand why fans cannot criticize Marner, AM, Willie, JT or Reilly, as they are the top players of the Leafs just like MJ was with the Bulls. Unless you guys think it is okay for a talented team like the Leafs to be just a playoffs team.

 

[Zybalto]

I'm too lazy to look up the numbers for all these guys but without looking, I know that some of these guys have played really well in the playoffs compared to Marner.

The bolded is cute, I'm pretty sure none of these guys makes as much as Marner. I think that's what you call spin, and spinning makes it hard to have a meaningful discussion so I suggest you stop. Unless of course meaningful discussion isn't what you're after, in that case have at it I guess.

BTW that list you gave is strange as it seems sensible to compare Marner to wingers which eliminates most of your list. Rantanen jumps out at me though, plays the same position and is in the habit of crushing it in the playoffs and has almost 2 million less cap hit. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the hockey world would choose Rantanen over Marner (if they cared about playoff success that is, a small market team that only cared about selling regular season tickets might take Marner I guess).

I think part of the problem with Marner is that people are looking for things wrong all the time. Looking at the last 2 years, he only has 8 points in 12 games but his play pointed to the fact he deserved a few more while being one of the best defensive forwards in the playoffs.

Top 5v5 xGF% the last 2 years for forwards in the playoffs (min 150 minutes played, 152 forwards total):

1. Draisatl
2. Marner
3. McDavid

It doesnt matter how good you are, how great your D is or how much you care. This is the NHL. Theres 20+ players you are relying on and your goalie is the quarterback. Special teams add new wrinkles and your goalie becomes even more important. On every successful team, depth players play responsibly and dont give up 2 on 0s in overtime. It's why I picked the Leafs, Oilers and Pens to go far this year (Crosby's underlying numbers are great/elite despite his only 6 points in 15 games the last 3 years). You can only have so much bad luck with goaltending/shooting/depth for so long.

Leafs/Pens conference final then Leafs/Oilers final, book it! (Wishful thinking I know but it just takes a hot goalie to make it happen)

 

[Gabriel426]

I think part of the problem with Marner is that people are looking for things wrong all the time. Looking at the last 2 years, he only has 8 points in 12 games but his play pointed to the fact he deserved a few more while being one of the best defensive forwards in the playoffs.

Top 5v5 xGF% the last 2 years for forwards in the playoffs (min 150 minutes played, 152 forwards total):

1. Draisatl
2. Marner
3. McDavid

It doesnt matter how good you are, how great your D is or how much you care. This is the NHL. Theres 20+ players you are relying on and your goalie is the quarterback. Special teams add new wrinkles and your goalie becomes even more important. On every successful team, depth players play responsibly and dont give up 2 on 0s in overtime. It's why I picked the Leafs, Oilers and Pens to go far this year (Crosby's underlying numbers are great/elite despite his only 6 points in 15 games the last 3 years). You can only have so much bad luck with goaltending/shooting/depth for so long.

Leafs/Pens conference final then Leafs/Oilers final, book it! (Wishful thinking I know but it just takes a hot goalie to make it happen)

Won't say Oilers making it far. I just can't see a defence of Barrie and Ceci making it far in the playoffs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Panarin is a winger last I checked and has proven nothing in the playoffs. Rantanen makes 1.75 million less than Marner you are right. But last I checked he has won nothing in the playoffs since in the league. Colorado as a whole has been just as disappointing. But your right if we are talking about points and getting out of round 1 yes Rantanen is a way better player!!!

I believe hockey is a team sport is it not? So if your linemates go cold or are shut down it means team most likely loses if your not producing? I think thats the way it works normally. Especially if your a top 5 point producer annually.

But than again you could be McDavid and produce in playoffs and your team still exits early each playoffs. Cause again it is a team sport.

Not sure exactly why everyone is blaming Marner. Makes literally no sense. Especially coming from some that I have the utmost respect for on this forum for years. You guys should know better.

It is a team sport, that's why it makes no sense to evaluate players based on how their team does. Rantanen has been fantastic in the playoffs, Marner has not. Are you really going to argue that's not the case?

If we offered to trade Marner for Rantanen, do you think COL accepts?

If COL offered us Rantanen for Marner, would you accept if it was your decision?

I personally am not "blaming" Marner for anything. I hoping against hope that the reason he hasn't been great in the playoffs the last few years is that he has been given too much ice time, that that will be fixed and this year he kills it for us. I'm not sure that's a valid excuse for his play but I'm hoping.

I think part of the problem with Marner is that people are looking for things wrong all the time. Looking at the last 2 years, he only has 8 points in 12 games but his play pointed to the fact he deserved a few more while being one of the best defensive forwards in the playoffs.

Top 5v5 xGF% the last 2 years for forwards in the playoffs (min 150 minutes played, 152 forwards total):

1. Draisatl
2. Marner
3. McDavid

It doesnt matter how good you are, how great your D is or how much you care. This is the NHL. Theres 20+ players you are relying on and your goalie is the quarterback. Special teams add new wrinkles and your goalie becomes even more important. On every successful team, depth players play responsibly and dont give up 2 on 0s in overtime. It's why I picked the Leafs, Oilers and Pens to go far this year (Crosby's underlying numbers are great/elite despite his only 6 points in 15 games the last 3 years). You can only have so much bad luck with goaltending/shooting/depth for so long.

Leafs/Pens conference final then Leafs/Oilers final, book it! (Wishful thinking I know but it just takes a hot goalie to make it happen)

TBH I don't put too much stock into those fancy stats over small sample sizes. A lot of what you say has merit though, hopefully Marner breaks out in the playoffs this season and everyone will be happy.

Let's be honest here, until Marner produces in the playoffs, many people will be unhappy with him and the offer sheet threats and a few other things have hurt his reputation. That's just the way it is so no need for people to be so upset about it and make these threads toxic. Not saying that's you, I like your posts a lot and I appreciate being able to discuss things in a respectful fashion with people who don't agree with me. That's the fun and rewarding part of being here and that's how every now and then I learn something.

Since I respect your opinion (even if we don't always agree ), let me ask you this hypothetical question:

If you were offered a trade of Marner for Rantanen today, what would your reaction be? Easy decision? Tough decision? Would you need to think about it for some time or do know what your answer is?

 

[Zybalto]

It is a team sport, that's why it makes no sense to evaluate players based on how their team does. Rantanen has been fantastic in the playoffs, Marner has not. Are you really going to argue that's not the case?

If we offered to trade Marner for Rantanen, do you think COL accepts?

If COL offered us Rantanen for Marner, would you accept if it was your decision?

I personally am not "blaming" Marner for anything. I hoping against hope that the reason he hasn't been great in the playoffs the last few years is that he has been given too much ice time, that that will be fixed and this year he kills it for us. I'm not sure that's a valid excuse for his play but I'm hoping.



TBH I don't put too much stock into those fancy stats over small sample sizes. A lot of what you say has merit though, hopefully Marner breaks out in the playoffs this season and everyone will be happy.

Let's be honest here, until Marner produces in the playoffs, many people will be unhappy with him and the offer sheet threats and a few other things have hurt his reputation. That's just the way it is so no need for people to be so upset about it and make these threads toxic. Not saying that's you, I like your posts a lot and I appreciate being able to discuss things in a respectful fashion with people who don't agree with me. That's the fun and rewarding part of being here and that's how every now and then I learn something.

Since I respect your opinion (even if we don't always agree ), let me ask you this hypothetical question:

If you were offered a trade of Marner for Rantanen today, what would your reaction be? Easy decision? Tough decision? Would you need to think about it for some time or do know what your answer is?

I think some teams would be swayed by Rantanens finishing ability, especially on the PP but Marner's overall game puts him over the top. As good as Rantanen was on the PP, Marner has top 5 PK numbers to counter it and while Rantanen has an underappreciated two-way game, Marner is just overall the better two-way player. I actually think Rantanen doesn't get enough attention but I think the Leafs need Marner's playmaking to stir the drink more than Rantanens finishing ATM. Colorado has suffered the same fate as the Leafs in that the moment they have come up tough goaltending, its exposed their own issues at that position. They could go far this year too if that comes together though.

Pens/Leafs
Oilers/Avs

...would be an awesome final 4 to see.

 

[sparxx87]

2019 series vs Boston. They faced Bergeron's line against Tavares/Marner's line.

I'm actually pretty sure that line faced top competition during the whole regular season. Nylander had his holdout, Matthews dealt with a few injuries and that line was our primary source of offense. Both JT and Marner had career years.

Fair enough. I shouldn't have said never.. I don't care to look it up so I'll take your word for it. I was more speaking to how Marner benefitted greatly from the Leafs depth of talent around him in his first few years.

You're probably right about Tavares first year but I think the point remains that Marner saw a lot of second units before he started playing with Matthews. Specifically the 1.3 PPG season with Kadri/Bozak that I initially quoted.


I'm still of the opinion that the Leafs are a better team with Matthews/Nylander and Tavares/Marner. Not just for matchups, but for stylistic fit. Not that Marner can't play with Matthews, but Nylander creates a more dynamic duo with his shooting threat. Marner is a unique talent that really just needs someone that can pass and get to the net/slot. Tavares is slow but still smart and talented.. Marner can play centre when they cross the redline and let Tavares play below the dots where he's best.... Matthews and Nylander draw the toughest matchups but they've shown great chemistry, and Nylander has become more dynamic player than he was two years ago. He's a threat to score 40 with Matthews who could flirt with 60... Need more than Phillip Danault to defend that.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Matty is back tonight to carry da mail .. Mitch will be fine again with da apples

 

[Machinae]

Matty is back tonight to carry da mail .. Mitch will be fine again with da apples

Thank goodness, all the 11million dollar winger needed to score points was to play with a generational goal scorer.