Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[hamzarocks]

Matthews. Because he was going to be a sure fire Rocket guy. Just like Ovi or Crosby he had that right.

Marner stats wise has absolutely nothing to put himself into Matthews range. It was all bs. Dubas deceived by advanced stats and creative magic. It was outlandish for him to compare himself, as a winger of all things. DUBAS did that.

Yes in it because Dubas, but Matthews has some credibility to his claims and contract. Marner is a passenger winger that has to rely on shooter to put the puck in the net. You can't pay playmakers like goal scorers.

Nylander as a 45 50 goal scorer somewhat makes his 11.5 justified. Somewhat.

Wrong you should almost ALWAYS pay playmakers more than goal scorers b/c 99.99% of the time they are much better players

Besides 08-10 OV and 22 Matthews (even this year Mcdavid was still the better player and was more a playmaker than goal scorer) the best players are more play makers oriented.

You would look foolish if you paid Matthews more than Kucherov or Mackinnon (2 of the best playmakers in the league and point producers)

The issue isnt goal scoring vs play making.

The issue is Marner as a player isnt high end enough talent.

100 pts in his situation + league wide offense setting isnt 100 pts from 08-18 era.

Hes a great player but he isnt a franchise level winger as to do that he should be a 35G and 85A guy and 120 pt guy consistent who brings it in the playoffs

Marner (and nylander/matthews) just are not good enough hockey players to make projected 12-13M, 11.5M and 13.25M

 

[thewave]

Wrong you should almost ALWAYS pay playmakers more than goal scorers b/c 99.99% of the time they are much better players

Scoring is hard in hockey. They aren't better either. Just like wingers are less talented than centres. Proof. Any C can be a winger. Not every winger can be a C.

Besides 08-10 OV and 22 Matthews (even this year Mcdavid was still the better player and was more a playmaker than goal scorer) the best players are more play makers oriented.

McDavid can do it all though. Like, I mean if someone tried to compare the winger Marner to McDavid... I may be sore from the laughing

You would look foolish if you paid Matthews more than Kucherov or Mackinnon (2 of the best playmakers in the league and point producers)

Goal scoring is harder. They are also the only reason playmakers get any points.

The issue isnt goal scoring vs play making.

The issue is Marner as a player isnt high end enough talent.

He is pretty talented. Lacks all the other categories. Speed Shot Toughness Etc

100 pts in his situation + league wide offense setting isnt 100 pts from 08-18 era.

True

Hes a great player but he isnt a franchise level winger as to do that he should be a 35G and 85A guy and 120 pt guy consistent who brings it in the playoffs

Agreed not Franchise level. I think someone may eant to attempt it but it wont go well.

Marner (and nylander/matthews) just are not good enough hockey players to make projected 12-13M, 11.5M and 13.25M

I agree but with Matthews 69goals and Rockets I am not going to argue his 13m

 

[IPS]

They couldn't have. That was a fake rumour someone started a year later on the internet, and there have been about 5 different versions of it.

About as much evidence for that as your imaginary 10.5 x 5 offer sheet.

 

[Dekes For Days]

About as much evidence for that as your imaginary 10.5 x 5 offer sheet.

I never said there was a 10.5 x 5 offer sheet. I gave an example of an offer sheet below the four 1st threshold that would have been worse than the contract he got. You would have known that if you actually read my post.

 

[hamzarocks]

Scoring is hard in hockey. They aren't better either. Just like wingers are less talented than centres. Proof. Any C can be a winger. Not every winger can be a C.

McDavid can do it all though. Like, I mean if someone tried to compare the winger Marner to McDavid... I may be sore from the laughing

Goal scoring is harder. They are also the only reason playmakers get any points.

He is pretty talented. Lacks all the other categories. Speed Shot Toughness Etc


True

Agreed not Franchise level. I think someone may eant to attempt it but it wont go well.

I agree but with Matthews 69goals and Rockets I am not going to argue his 13m

IF your saying the only reason play maker get pts is b/c of a goal scorer

Then

The only reason goal scorers get goals/pts is due to being set up for tap ins and being merchants by play makers who create all the plays while lazy goal scorers coast for free points.

Only exception being unassisted goal scorers but those are very rare for a player and small % of total goals a player gets

Again look at the best players in the league since 2020

Mcdavid
Mackinnon
Kucherov
Draisaitl
Makar
Matthews
Panarin
Pasta
Q. Hughes
Kaprizov


Majority of those guys are better play makers than goal scorers. Offense generation and conversion matters.

Matthews scores goals but is useless as a playmaker and can't create for his wingers despite being a Center. Not worth 13.25M with 45 pts in 40 this year and wasnt worth it last year either with 69G and 107Pts when he was 37 pts back of Kucherov who showed he is much much better than Matthews at creating offense for his team.

Kucherovs style of production and play carries to the playoffs with him being one of the best playoff stars ever while Matthews productiin style in the playoffs has him known as a big time playoff choker

 

[thewave]

IF your saying the only reason play maker get pts is b/c of a goal scorer

Then

The only reason goal scorers get goals/pts is due to being set up for tap ins and being merchants by play makers who create all the plays while lazy goal scorers coast for free points

Again look at the best players in the league since 2020

Mcdavid
Mackinnon
Kucherov
Draisaitl
Makar
Matthews
Panarin
Pasta
Hughes


Majority of those guys are better play makers than goal scorers. Offense generation and conversion matters.

Matthews scores goals but is useless as a playmaker and can't create for his wingers despite being a Center. Not worth 13.25M with 45 pts in 40 this year and wasnt worth it last year either with 69G and 107Pts when he was 37 pts back of Kucherov who showed he is much much better than Matthews at creating offense for his team.

Kucherovs style of production and play carries to the playoffs with him being one of the best playoff stars ever while Matthews productiin style in the playoffs has him known as a big time playoff choker

Aren't they all pretty much 40 goal scorers or better? They are balanced. Gretzky hold Goals and Assists records.

 

[IPS]

Majority of those guys are better play makers than goal scorers. Offense generation and conversion matters.

Matthews scores goals but is useless as a playmaker and can't create for his wingers despite being a Center. Not worth 13.25M with 45 pts in 40 this year and wasnt worth it last year either with 69G and 107Pts when he was 37 pts back of Kucherov who showed he is much much better than Matthews at creating offense for his team.

Kucherovs style of production and play carries to the playoffs with him being one of the best playoff stars ever while Matthews productiin style in the playoffs has him known as a big time playoff choker

Couldn't you apply all this to Marner too though? And he ain't scoring the goals that other elite wingers do too. Rantanen for example has far more of a playoff-friendly game with his size/strength/goal scoring.

 

[thewave]

Couldn't you apply all this to Marner too though? And he ain't scoring the goals that other elite wingers do too. Rantanen for example has far more of a playoff-friendly game with his size/strength/goal scoring.

Almost all of them has put in 40+ but Marner can't. They are also much better playoff performers and have skills like elite speed etc.

 

[hamzarocks]

Couldn't you apply all this to Marner too though?

Of course marner aint worth his money he wants.

His problem is his goal scoring isnt good enough and his play making isnt good enough

He wants to be viewed as drai, kuch, mack

So he needs to be 35-40G and 85-90A guy. He cant do that, simply not a good enough hockey player for that level of dominance.

So he should not be looking at 13-14M but rather 10-11M based on his talent and production level (34 and 88 adjusted down as well)

 

[thewave]

Of course marner aint worth his money he wants.

His problem is his goal scoring isnt good enough and his play making isbt good enough

He wants to be viewed as drai, kuch, mack

So he needs to be 35-40G and 85-90A guy. He cant do that, simply not a good enough hockey player for that level of dominance.

So he should not be looking at 13-14M but rather 10-11M based on his talent and production level (34 and 88 adjusted down as well)

Correct. He and Nylander are closer to 10m players.

 

[hamzarocks]

Almost all of them has put in 40+ but Marner can't. They are also much better playoff performers and have skills like elite speed etc.

Thats the issue with the core guys

Matthews at his best is a 1-D goal scorer and can barely get 40 assists making him useless come playoffs and much worse than those comparables who regularly dominatw the playoffs.

Marner is a 1-D playmaker who cant get 80 assists and cant score 40G consistently.

Nylander similar to Mattgews just scores goals but is pacing for ~30A only which is horrific.

One-dimension offense type players are going to be easier to shut down in the playoffs as we have seen with 16, and 34 and 88 to a smaller extent

 

[ToneDog]

Of course marner aint worth his money he wants.

His problem is his goal scoring isnt good enough and his play making isbt good enough

He wants to be viewed as drai, kuch, mack

So he needs to be 35-40G and 85-90A guy. He cant do that, simply not a good enough hockey player for that level of dominance.

So he should not be looking at 13-14M but rather 10-11M based on his talent and production level (34 and 88 adjusted down as well)

Hard to believe some people (probably shills) and the Marner camp cannot admit this. He is on pace for 24 goals and 82.5 assists (and trending down). Draisaitl has been a playoff beast @ 8.5m while Marner has been a playoff mouse @ 10.9m for the past 5 years. The minute he asked for Draisaitl money they should have made life difficult so that he would waive and they could trade him. I guess once a POS, always a POS .

 

[thewave]

Thats the issue with the core guys

Matthews at his best is a 1-D goal scorer and can barely get 40 assists making him useless come playoffs and much worse than those comparables who regularly dominatw the playoffs.

Marner is a 1-D playmaker who cant get 80 assists and cant score 40G consistently.

Nylander similar to Mattgews just scores goals but is pacing for ~30A only which is horrific.

One-dimension offense type players are going to be easier to shut down in the playoffs as we have seen with 16, and 34 and 88 to a smaller extent

Agreed

Hard to believe some people (probably shills) and the Marner camp cannot admit this. He is on pace for 24 goals and 82.5 assists (and trending down). Draisaitl has been a playoff beast @ 8.5m while Marner has been a playoff mouse @ 10.9m for the past 5 years. The minute he asked for Draisaitl money they should have made life difficult so that he would waive and they could trade him. I guess once a POS, always a POS .

It's so obvious. Black and white yet they fight tooth and nail to get the guy more money.

 

[ToneDog]

Almost all of them has put in 40+ but Marner can't. They are also much better playoff performers and have skills like elite speed etc.

Marner is Johnny Hockey (RIP) and is worth the same cap hit plus the Leafs' stupidity tax.

 

[thewave]

Marner is Johnny Hockey (RIP) and is worth the same cap hit plus the Leafs' stupidity tax.

Pretty much. Now brace yourselves for the incoming 110pts pace, in a vacuum, if you adjust x y z stat axis on a slanted chart you can see Marner is elite type arguments.

 

[hamzarocks]

Hard to believe some people (probably shills) and the Marner camp cannot admit this. He is on pace for 24 goals and 82.5 assists (and trending down). Draisaitl has been a playoff beast @ 8.5m while Marner has been a playoff mouse @ 10.9m for the past 5 years. The minute he asked for Draisaitl money they should have made life difficult so that he would waive and they could trade him. I guess once a POS, always a POS .

Thats the problem with Marner/his camp (also the otber big guys)

Always looking up and ahead at better players who produce a lot in reg season and even more impressive have absurd playoff stats.

Marner (and rest of the core) simply dont realize they have failed heavily on expectations for a near decade now. they don't admit playoff production matters as only the very best can sustain dominance there (crosby, malkin, kane and to a smaller extent OV from the old guard and Mcdavid, Drai, Kuch, Mack from this new gaurd)

Marner instead of chasing every last $ and setting a contract that a 29 year old - 37 year old marner <1% of chance of living up to could still get a crap ton of money and take a pay day that 95+% of NHLers have and won't ever get at 10M-10.5M x 8.

He should compare himself to Jack Hughes, JT Miller, Sebastian Aho type players and price himself above them for cap increase jump.

Would show hes committed to winning and doesnt view himself as a top 2-5 player league wide and that he understands money saved on him will trickle down moving forward to help team add and retain better players for when he gets worse in 32/33 year seasons onwards.

80-84M (10-10.5M AAV) + the ~66M (10.93 x 6) + ~3M ELC money + career marketing/advertising money + LT post career earning potential in his 40s - 60s should he want.

Such absurdity that being drafted to an organization whose given him that sort of earnings opportunity and has retained him despite his failures so far to live up to his end of the bargain yet he still needs a 100-110M contracr which he will never live upto and get booed off the team eventually

 

[IPS]

Marner is Johnny Hockey (RIP) and is worth the same cap hit plus the Leafs' stupidity tax.

He's better than Jonny defensively, by a fair bit. So gotta give him that.

But offensively yes - they're virtually cut from the same cloth. Similar playoff struggles and all. Could even throw Panarin in there as well. These small playmaking winger's games just don't translate for shit to the playoffs.

 

[Hellcat]

Scoring is hard in hockey. They aren't better either. Just like wingers are less talented than centres. Proof. Any C can be a winger. Not every winger can be a C.

You have two separate thoughts there, which do not apply to Mitch.

Scoring is hard which is why Matty is getting paid 13 mil.

Wingers are not necessarily less talented. Kucherov is a winger, Panarin is a winger, Marner a winger, Connor a winger, Nylander is a winger and so on and so on, lots of super star wingers to pick from. To make a blanket statement that wingers are less talented, is simply false.

The reason primary reason why not all wingers can play center is centers have more defensive responsibilities, not all wingers can handle the added responsibility of playing defence and offence. This is not true in every case but in the vast majority of cases it is true, for example McDavid is a poor defender he is not good at handling the defensive part of the game but is generationally elite at creating offence, so they put him at center. Marner while not a center is an elite defender, he defends like an elite center and produces offence like an elite center but plays wing.

One of the things the Leafs as a team do poorly is distribute the puck to areas where it creates either an unfair advantage for the offence and/or a challenge to defend against. Marner in this sense is the Leafs easy button. On the Leafs he has unmatched vision and creativity and unmatched defensive acumen. He creates this unfair advanage for his linemates

Marner as a winger, who is an elite pass first player, is a unicorn, he is not your typical winger. Implying that he is less valuable because he is a winger is an incomplete and incorrect statement.

 

[ToneDog]

Thats the problem with Marner/his camp (also the otber big guys)

Always looking up and ahead at better players who produce a lot in reg season and even more impressive have absurd playoff stats.

Marner (and rest of the core) simply dont realize they have failed heavily on expectations for a near decade now. they don't admit playoff production matters as only the very best can sustain dominance there (crosby, malkin, kane and to a smaller extent OV from the old guard and Mcdavid, Drai, Kuch, Mack from this new gaurd)

Marner instead of chasing every last $ and setting a contract that a 29 year old - 37 year old marner <1% of chance of living up to could still get a crap ton of money and take a pay day that 95+% of NHLers have and won't ever get at 10M-10.5M x 8.

He should compare himself to Jack Hughes, JT Miller, Sebastian Aho type players and price himself above them for cap increase jump.

Would show hes committed to winning and doesnt view himself as a top 2-5 player league wide and that he understands money saved on him will trickle down moving forward to help team add and retain better players for when he gets worse in 32/33 year seasons onwards.

80-84M (10-10.5M AAV) + the ~66M (10.93 x 6) + ~3M ELC money + career marketing/advertising money + LT post career earning potential in his 40s - 60s should he want.

Such absurdity that being drafted to an organization whose given him that sort of earnings opportunity and has retained him despite his failures so far to live up to his end of the bargain yet he still needs a 100-110M contracr which he will never live upto and get booed off the team eventually

He would have been signed if he took the Nylander deal based on the new cap. That's close to $13m but it is not enough. And he wonders why a good chunk of the fan base do not care if he walks for nothing. I welcome it myself. Let him choke in the playoffs elsewhere so we can stop with the same rerun.

 

[HolyCrap]

No need for the pictures, we can all plainly see Marner is skinny and weak.

We can. The Marner jock junkies can’t. lol.

 

[ToneDog]

He's better than Jonny defensively, by a fair bit. So gotta give him that.

But offensively yes - they're virtually cut from the same cloth. Similar playoff struggles and all. Could even throw Panarin in there as well. These small playmaking winger's games just don't translate for shit to the playoffs.

Agreed but Johnny H and Panarin have put up 40 goals and well over 100 point. Mitch has not and is trending to may never put up 40 goals.

 

[ToneDog]

You have two separate thoughts there, which do not apply to Mitch.

Scoring is hard which is why Matty is getting paid 13 mil.

Wingers are not necessarily less talented. Kucherov is a winger, Panarin is a winger, Marner a winger, Connor a winger, Nylander is a winger and so on and so on, lots of super star wingers to pick from. To make a blanket statement that wingers are less talented, is simply false.

The reason primary reason why not all wingers can play center is centers have more defensive responsibilities, not all wingers can handle the added responsibility of playing defence and offence. This is not true in every case but in the vast majority of cases it is true, for example McDavid is a poor defender he is not good at handling the defensive part of the game but is generationally elite at creating offence, so they put him at center. Marner while not a center is an elite defender, he defends like an elite center and produces offence like an elite center but plays wing.

One of the things the Leafs as a team do poorly is distribute the puck to areas where it creates either an unfair advantage for the offence and/or a challenge to defend against. Marner in this sense is the Leafs easy button. On the Leafs he has unmatched vision and creativity and unmatched defensive acumen. He creates this unfair advanage for his linemates

Marner as a winger, who is an elite pass first player, is a unicorn, he is not your typical winger. Implying that he is less valuable because he is a winger is an incomplete and incorrect statement.

So Marner is a hybrid center/winger. Still small and his game has never translated to the playoffs. How much would you pay him knowing you already have almost $25m invested in a C and RW and the 3 are 1 and 8 in the playoffs in 8 years.

 

[IPS]

Agreed but Johnny H and Panarin have put up 40 goals and well over 100 point. Mitch has not and is trending to may never put up 40 goals.

Very true. His defense is great don't get me wrong but how many times in the playoffs the last 8 years where it's not defense we need from a winger, we need a freaking goal.

 

[sunstersun]

Very true. His defense is great don't get me wrong but how many times in the playoffs the last 8 years where it's not defense we need from a winger, we need a freaking goal.

His defence in the playoffs is also been quite concerning. Lots of turnovers, giveaways and mental derps.

 

[ToneDog]

Very true. His defense is great don't get me wrong but how many times in the playoffs the last 8 years where it's not defense we need from a winger, we need a freaking goal.

Never and he's probably been on the ice and/or turned over the puck when they have given up that big goal.