Player Discussion Mitch Marner, Again

[thewave]

I just need to be reminded who was the first of the core to sign for an astronomical number?

Matthews. Because he was going to be a sure fire Rocket guy. Just like Ovi or Crosby he had that right.

I don’t know how anyone with a straight face can say it’s starts with the Marner. If Matthews takes a reasonable number post ELC, we don’t see Marner’s number as high. It’s pretty simple. It doesn’t Matter if you’re a unicorn or not, it’s about treating players equally so no one feels treated unfairly. You look at every other dynasty, their star players got matching or similar deals. One wasn’t more important than the others. Go down the list, Toews/Kane, Doughty/Kopitar, Letang/Malkin/Crosby, Stamkos/Kucherov/Hedman.

Marner stats wise has absolutely nothing to put himself into Matthews range. It was all bs. Dubas deceived by advanced stats and creative magic. It was outlandish for him to compare himself, as a winger of all things. DUBAS did that.

From day one the organization had 3 elite talents and they put 1 on a pedistool and he got everything he wanted, from ELC schedule B bonuses, to an immediate 11 million post ELC, to max AAV on the shortest term. Other teams never did that, even if they valued one more than the other. They made sure each star was treated the same. That’s why we are in this situation. If you can’t see that, I’m not sure what to tell you. It’s on the organization at the end of the day.

Yes in it because Dubas, but Matthews has some credibility to his claims and contract. Marner is a passenger winger that has to rely on shooter to put the puck in the net. You can't pay playmakers like goal scorers.

Nylander as a 45 50 goal scorer somewhat makes his 11.5 justified. Somewhat.

 

[francis246]

Matthews. Because he was going to be a sure fire Rocket guy. Just like Ovi or Crosby he had that right.

Marner stats wise has absolutely nothing to put himself into Matthews range. It was all bs. Dubas deceived by advanced stats and creative magic. It was outlandish for him to compare himself, as a winger of all things. DUBAS did that.

Yes in it because Dubas, but Matthews has some credibility to his claims and contract. Marner is a passenger winger that has to rely on shooter to put the puck in the net. You can't pay playmakers like goal scorers.

Nylander as a 45 50 goal scorer somewhat makes his 11.5 justified. Somewhat.

What I’m saying is Matthews as the best player on the team has the responsibility of setting the tone for everyone else. Not Marner. Kane was miles better than Toews offensively and we know offensive numbers usually drive contracts. But guess what Kane and Toews took matching deals all the way through their careers. Same with Crosby and Malkin. To them it didn’t matter, they were in it together.

This is where this management group and Matthews went wrong. Matthews has never once thought about putting the team or his teammates first. So how can you get mad at Marner for not doing so? How can you get mad at Nylander for not doing so? How can you get mad at Hyman walking for more money? You can’t.

I’ll say it again, Crosby was a unicorn but he didn’t use that to accept more money than his buddy Malkin. Kane was a unicorn but he never used it as a tool to make more than Toews.

 

[francis246]

Matthews. Because he was going to be a sure fire Rocket guy. Just like Ovi or Crosby he had that right.

Marner stats wise has absolutely nothing to put himself into Matthews range. It was all bs. Dubas deceived by advanced stats and creative magic. It was outlandish for him to compare himself, as a winger of all things. DUBAS did that.

Yes in it because Dubas, but Matthews has some credibility to his claims and contract. Marner is a passenger winger that has to rely on shooter to put the puck in the net. You can't pay playmakers like goal scorers.

Nylander as a 45 50 goal scorer somewhat makes his 11.5 justified. Somewhat.

Also the argument that Marner didn’t have the stats to command Matthews money is baloney. He lead the three superstars in ELC scoring and was coming off a 90 point season. Which Matthews or Nylander had never done yet. He was getting paid. I think Matthews career high was 70 something and he had injury issues. If anything Matthews IMO didn’t really deserve 11 million at that time: I thought maybe 10 or 10 and a quarter if that. But once Eichel got 10 for his production I’m sure Matthews and Marner’s agents were licking their chops.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Gms, coaches and reporters don't praise athletes for putting in the work in the offseason... if there known to put in the work in the offseason.

Yes they do. Somebody being praised for hard work does not mean that they didn't work hard previously. You don't become one of the best players in the world by not working hard.

Additionally...anyone whose ever played sports or trained takes one look at Marners tiny physique and knows he doesn't work out.

Why are you looking at Marner with his shirt off in the first place? Anybody that's ever played sports or trained knows that there's more to physical fitness than how bulky you are. And you'd think hockey fans would understand that there's more to hockey than that, considering that the best hockey player to ever exist was a stick. Getting hulked out isn't going to help the game of somebody like Marner. He has a whole team of experts guiding him. He doesn't need tips from you.

 

[thewave]

What I’m saying is Matthews as the best player on the team has the responsibility of setting the tone for everyone else. Not Marner. Kane was miles better than Toews offensively and we know offensive numbers usually drive contracts. But guess what Kane and Toews took matching deals all the way through their careers. Same with Crosby and Malkin. To them it didn’t matter, they were in it together.

This is where this management group and Matthews went wrong. Matthews has never once thought about putting the team or his teammates first. So how can you get mad at Marner for not doing so? How can you get mad at Nylander for not doing so? How can you get mad at Hyman walking for more money? You can’t.

I’ll say it again, Crosby was a unicorn but he didn’t use that to accept more money than his buddy Malkin. Kane was a unicorn but he never used it as a tool to make more than Toews.

Matthews is a curious case. Ovi did his own thing and never won until he started listening. Not all stars listen and that's luck of the draw.

Marner is legit just pulling a whine fit saying he is as good as Matthews. He isn't. It's silly.

 

[thewave]

Also the argument that Marner didn’t have the stats to command Matthews money is baloney. He lead the three superstars in ELC scoring and was coming off a 90 point season. Which Matthews or Nylander had never done yet. He was getting paid. I think Matthews career high was 70 something and he had injury issues. If anything Matthews IMO didn’t really deserve 11 million at that time: I thought maybe 10 or 10 and a quarter if that. But once Eichel got 10 for his production I’m sure Matthews and Marner’s agents were licking their chops.

Marners money only ever remotely made sense internally. The Leafs went out of their way to ignore RFA status discounts etc.. Marner even played the offer sheet card.

The only remotely fair RFA contract issued was to Nylander

 

[francis246]

Matthews is a curious case. Ovi did his own thing and never won until he started listening. Not all stars listen and that's luck of the draw.

Marner is legit just pulling a whine fit saying he is as good as Matthews. He isn't. It's silly.

Marner had a legitimate case back then. He was better than Eichel and his numbers outside of goal scoring were better than Matthews. Not sure what you wanted him to do?

If the rumours are true they could have had him on a cost controlled deal the summer before? But Dubas played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. The kid was good. He may not be likeable but he’s talented and they let him go out there in a contract year and dominate and lead the team in scoring.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What I’m saying is Matthews as the best player on the team has the responsibility of setting the tone for everyone else. Not Marner. Kane was miles better than Toews offensively and we know offensive numbers usually drive contracts. But guess what Kane and Toews took matching deals all the way through their careers. Same with Crosby and Malkin. To them it didn’t matter, they were in it together.

This is where this management group and Matthews went wrong. Matthews has never once thought about putting the team or his teammates first. So how can you get mad at Marner for not doing so? How can you get mad at Nylander for not doing so? How can you get mad at Hyman walking for more money? You can’t.

I’ll say it again, Crosby was a unicorn but he didn’t use that to accept more money than his buddy Malkin. Kane was a unicorn but he never used it as a tool to make more than Toews.

Deep down I don't think most fans blame Marner, or any other player, for getting all they can. The blame is on Dubas for giving them what they hadn't earned.

If Matty made $10 and Mitch and Willy each made $7 on their previous contracts everyone would have been happy, and we'd have been in much better shape overall.

If Matty was at $13, Willy at $11 and Mitch at $10 now I think most fans would consider it reasonable.

 

[francis246]

Marners money only ever remotely made sense internally. The Leafs went out of their way to ignore RFA status discounts etc.. Marner even played the offer sheet card.

The only remotely fair RFA contract issued was to Nylander

The other guys signed after Marner so Marner really only had an internal comp and Eichel. Eichel was in Marner’s draft, signed for 10 million and Marner was blowing Eichels production out of the water. The only argument against is Eichel was a center.

 

[thewave]

Marner had a legitimate case back then. He was better than Eichel and his numbers outside of goal scoring were better than Matthews. Not sure what you wanted him to do?

If the rumours are true they could have had him on a cost controlled deal the summer before? But Dubas played a stupid game and won a stupid prize. The kid was good. He may not be likeable but he’s talented and they let him go out there in a contract year and dominate and lead the team in scoring.

He is a non goal scoring winger inflated by the best goal scorer in the game. He is not a C. He is not a goal scorer. He is not a leader on the ice. He is not clutch. He is not a late stage playoff performer. He is also soft and a perimeter player who cant even take a face off or go into a corner.

There is not 13m here. There is not 11m here. Only if stupid

The other guys signed after Marner so Marner really only had an internal comp and Eichel. Eichel was in Marner’s draft, signed for 10 million and Marner was blowing Eichels production out of the water. The only argument against is Eichel was a center.

Again. Eichel is a center and was supposed to be equal to Matthews. Something went wrong like everything in Buffalo

 

[Anthrax442]

Deep down I don't think most fans blame Marner, or any other player, for getting all they can. The blame is on Dubas for giving them what they hadn't earned.

If Matty made $10 and Mitch and Willy each made $7 on their previous contracts everyone would have been happy, and we'd have been in much better shape overall.

If Matty was at $13, Willy at $11 and Mitch at $10 now I think most fans would consider it reasonable.

I believe Dubas was willing to go another round with Marner as he did with Willy and take him all the way to the end in the negotiations, I think it was the ownership that made him sign Marner so they don't go through the embarrassing process again. This time with a popular local kid. Based on absolutely nothing but my own speculation

 

[francis246]

He is a non goal scoring winger inflated by the best goal scorer in the game. He is not a C. He is not a goal scorer. He is not a leader on the ice. He is not clutch. He is not a late stage playoff performer. He is also soft and a perimeter player who cant even take a face off or go into a corner.

There is not 13m here. There is not 11m here. Only if stupid

Well we are talking about post ELC, Marner had never played with Matthews up to that point. I mean I wouldn’t say Marner isn’t clutch. I think he isn’t particularly a clutch goal scorer. But he make impactful clutch plays defensively or getting the puck to people who can bury.

I also don’t get this Marner’s numbers are only inflated by Matthews thing lol. It’s a partnership that is mutually beneficial. Do you think Matthews is scoring 60 or 70 goals playing with Zach Hyman and Kasperi Kapanen? Hell nah. They have good chemistry for the most part. But like all things in life, it gets stale and hits a point where they need to be separated.

 

[thewave]

Well we are talking about post ELC, Marner had never played with Matthews up to that point. I mean I wouldn’t say Marner isn’t clutch. I think he isn’t particularly a clutch goal scorer. But he make impactful clutch plays defensively or getting the puck to people who can bury.

I also don’t get this Marner’s numbers are only inflated by Matthews thing lol. It’s a partnership that is mutually beneficial. Do you think Matthews is scoring 60 or 70 goals playing with Zach Hyman and Kasperi Kapanen? Hell nah. They have good chemistry for the most part. But like all things in life, it gets stale and hits a point where they need to be separated.

JT was a top notch C in the league. I would say he was lucky to be playing with him while Matthews was learning the ropes. Babcock was smart to do that. It had no negative impact only positive. I think JT score 40+ goals around that time

 

[francis246]

He is a non goal scoring winger inflated by the best goal scorer in the game. He is not a C. He is not a goal scorer. He is not a leader on the ice. He is not clutch. He is not a late stage playoff performer. He is also soft and a perimeter player who cant even take a face off or go into a corner.

There is not 13m here. There is not 11m here. Only if stupid



Again. Eichel is a center and was supposed to be equal to Matthews. Something went wrong like everything in Buffalo

But Eichel wasn’t equal to Matthews and that’s the Marner camps whole argument. He is closer to Matthews than Eichel ever was. He went 2 picks after Eichel and had better production than him. That’s likely why they asked for 9 million the summer before, shortly after Eichel signed his deal during the season. (If we are to believe the rumours)

 

[thewave]

But Eichel wasn’t equal to Matthews and that’s the Marner camps whole argument. He is closer to Matthews than Eichel ever was. He went 2 picks after Eichel and had better production than him. That’s likely why they asked for 9 million the summer before, shortly after Eichel signed his deal during the season. (If we are to believe the rumours)

The 9m made more sense. Dubas doing 11 was just dumb. Are we really going to dismiss Kucherov etc. Let's stick to wingers as well. There is a premium on Centers, they actually have to work for a living.

 

[francis246]

JT was a top notch C in the league. I would say he was lucky to be playing with him while Matthews was learning the ropes. Babcock was smart to do that. It had no negative impact only positive. I think JT score 40+ goals around that time

Absolutely but same with JT. Is JT scoring a career high in goals playing a full season with Connor Brown and Zach Hyman? Or Hyman and Kapanen? Probably not.

 

[Dekes For Days]

If the rumours are true they could have had him on a cost controlled deal the summer before?

They couldn't have. That was a fake rumour someone started a year later on the internet, and there have been about 5 different versions of it.

 

[francis246]

The 9m made more sense. Dubas doing 11 was just dumb. Are we really going to dismiss Kucherov etc. Let's stick to wingers as well. There is a premium on Centers, they actually have to work for a living.

I don’t think anyone even considers Tampa contracts as comparables. It’s a tax free state, that contract earns more actual dollars. So I’m sure once they calculated for tax savings Kucherov’s contract was probably in a similar range to what Marner was asking for.

 

[Nineteen67]

I don’t think anyone even considers Tampa contracts as comparables. It’s a tax free state, that contract earns more actual dollars. So I’m sure once they calculated for tax savings Kucherov’s contract was probably in a similar range to what Marner was asking for.

It’s not tax free. They don’t have state income tax which averages ~ 4%.

 

[thewave]

I don’t think anyone even considers Tampa contracts as comparables. It’s a tax free state, that contract earns more actual dollars. So I’m sure once they calculated for tax savings Kucherov’s contract was probably in a similar range to what Marner was asking for.

I don't know Francis. They could tell him 12.5m is our best but JT isn't coming back and Morgan is getting bought out. See what he says lol

 

[ToneDog]

Matthews. Because he was going to be a sure fire Rocket guy. Just like Ovi or Crosby he had that right.

Marner stats wise has absolutely nothing to put himself into Matthews range. It was all bs. Dubas deceived by advanced stats and creative magic. It was outlandish for him to compare himself, as a winger of all things. DUBAS did that.

Yes in it because Dubas, but Matthews has some credibility to his claims and contract. Marner is a passenger winger that has to rely on shooter to put the puck in the net. You can't pay playmakers like goal scorers.

Nylander as a 45 50 goal scorer somewhat makes his 11.5 justified. Somewhat.

Dubas f***ed it but but Shanny refused to fix it the second go around so they will overpay Marner. If they squeezed a bit of money from 34 (1.6m raise) and 88 (4.5m raise LOL) last year, maybe they sign Roy and/or Bert instead of Domi and OEL. How anybody thinks Marner should be paid more than Matthews is mind boggling. Anybody who posts Marner will be signed for $13.8m or more is clairvoyant, a Marner shill or out to lunch.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Eichel is a center and was supposed to be equal to Matthews. Something went wrong like everything in Buffalo

A centre playing on a crap team compared to a winger on a good team paying with one or the other of two very good centres. Sounds like a fair comparison to me.

 

[francis246]

I don't know Francis. They could tell him 12.5m is our best but JT isn't coming back and Morgan is getting bought out. See what he says lol

The truth is we don’t know what he’s gonna sign for. I still think it’ll end up less than Matthews if he’s to be a Maple Leaf!

I would not support paying him 14 million. I’m just saying I don’t blame him for taking max earnings if the team is willing to dish it out.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don’t think anyone even considers Tampa contracts as comparables. It’s a tax free state, that contract earns more actual dollars. So I’m sure once they calculated for tax savings Kucherov’s contract was probably in a similar range to what Marner was asking for.

Kucherov wasn't even relevant in the first place. He wasn't signing a post-ELC contract. But that doesn't stop people around here from cherry picking any contract that became high surplus value and claiming our contracts suck because of it. There's no interest in understanding how contract signings actually work. Only interest in anger that we don't have the best contracts ever signed.

 

[thewave]

Dubas f***ed it but but Shanny refused to fix it the second go around so they will overpay Marner. If they squeezed a bit of money from 34 (1.6m raise) and 88 (4.5m raise LOL) last year, maybe they sign Roy and/or Bert instead of Domi and OEL. How anybody thinks Marner should be paid more than Matthews is mind boggling. Anybody who posts Marner will be signed for $13.8m or more is clairvoyant, a Marner shill or out to lunch.

Yeah it's crazy. Won't ever understand it, but if they do sign him to 13+ we are confirmed that it's all about merch etc. Won't win a thing here.

A centre playing on a crap team compared to a winger on a good team paying with one or the other of two very good centres. Sounds like a fair comparison to me.

Very good point. They are THE tirefire of the NHL. Never burns out somehow