Miscellaneous NHL Discussion XCVII: Florida Panthers vs. Vegas Golden Knights Stanley Cup Finals (Poll in OP)

[ajgoal]

You know what you never hear about? Flyers staff getting poached. Assistant coaches, AHL coaches, analytics leaders, AGMs. No one in the entire organization is coveted around the league. Is that good?

Briere is the exception, but it's hard to know if that was because of his qualifications or because of the language he speaks.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

You know what you never hear about? Flyers staff getting poached or interviewed. Assistant coaches, AHL coaches, data types, AGMs. No staff member in the entire organization seems to be coveted around the league. Is that good?

Former coaches, former GMs, former players.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Dubas didn’t fail because Chuck is worse is one hell of an argument, especially considering they won the same number of playoff series.

Fewer, if you want to compare Dubas’ Leafs’ tenure to Chuck’s Wild tenure (of which many Dubas supporters ironically blasted Chuck for being unable to get MN “over the hump.”)

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Dubas didn’t fail because Chuck is worse is one hell of an argument, especially considering they won the same number of playoff series.

Fewer, if you want to compare Dubas’ Leafs’ tenure to Chuck’s Wild tenure (of which many Dubas supporters ironically blasted Chuck for being unable to get MN “over the hump.”)

The argument is that people have sat here and defended Chuck Fletcher's tenure here in Philadelphia and at the same time are now attempting to belittle Dubas. Those arguments can't coexist.

Also,

Chuck Fletcher’s Wild team’s division finish since the playoff format changed:

13/14: 4th
14/15: 4th
15/16: 5th
16/17: 4th
17/18: 3rd

Kyle Dubas’ teams division finish:
18/19: 3rd
19/20: 3rd
20/21: 1st
21/22: 2nd
22/23: 2nd

Basically the same.

 

[BiggE]

You know what you never hear about? Flyers staff getting poached or interviewed. Assistant coaches, AHL coaches, data types, AGMs. No staff member in the entire organization seems to be coveted around the league. Is that good?

Shocking really, I mean who wouldn’t want to snap up elite talent like AV, Michel Therrien, Scott “Mimsy” Gordon and the esteemed Charles “Harvard” Fletcher?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The argument is that people have sat here and defended Chuck Fletcher's tenure here in Philadelphia and at the same time are now attempting to belittle Dubas. Those arguments can't coexist.

The inconsistency is with those who ripped Chuck to shreds every day for 4 years, & now are praising & wanted to hire a GM who won the same # of playoff rounds.

The inconsistency is with those who blasted Chuck for not getting Minnesota “over the hump,” & are now praising & wanted to hire Dubas who had even less success getting Toronto “over the hump” than Chuck did with the Wild.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

The inconsistency is with those who ripped Chuck to shreds every day for 4 years, & now are praising & wanted to hire a GM who won the same # of playoff rounds.

The inconsistency is with those who blasted Chuck for not getting Minnesota “over the hump,” & are now praising & wanted to hire Dubas who had even less success getting Toronto “over the hump” than Chuck did with the Wild.

You see, context matters in all of those stances if you're attempting to be honest.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Also with all of the contradicting stances going on here…

Does Zito getting the Panthers “over the hump” mean that he’s a good GM or nah?

Zito has made many mistakes. Fletcher has made none, ever.

 

[Beef Invictus]

The inconsistency is with those who ripped Chuck to shreds every day for 4 years, & now are praising & wanted to hire a GM who won the same # of playoff rounds.

The inconsistency is with those who blasted Chuck for not getting Minnesota “over the hump,” & are now praising & wanted to hire Dubas who had even less success getting Toronto “over the hump” than Chuck did with the Wild.

You're ignoring a lot of vital differences. I wonder why?

 

[Curufinwe]

Fletcher's Flyers are nothing Zito's Panthers or the Leafs under Dubas. Only one of those teams ended up as a league laughing stock despite a huge payroll

 

[blackjackmulligan]

No. What makes Zito a good GM is he has a lot of solid moves on his record.
His big black mark were the panic moves at last year's TDL that backfired.

The Tkachuk was an example of the "Branch Rickey" effect, "luck is the residue of design."
I think he made the trade b/c he couldn't afford to resign both Huberdeau and Weegar, so he turned them into a much younger star who also changed the dynamics of the team, adding a more physical player who thrived in the dirty areas, making a soft team tougher to play against.
It was a move with an eye more on the long-run, that paid off when Zito got lucky and Bob had the playoff of his career.

his team was arguably the best n the nhl. he made moves to try to win a cup. something a good GM does in that situation. black mark, come on.

If nt winning the cup = backfired then yes. otherwise no it didn't.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Also with all of the contradicting stances going on here…

Does Zito getting the Panthers “over the hump” mean that he’s a good GM or nah?

Panthers are lucky
Flyers are unlucky
Has that been said yet? The contrarians are following uncle Igor

 

[freakydallas13]

No. What makes Zito a good GM ...

According to you, nothing makes Zito a good GM because you think he isn't one.

You can't say "No, Zito isn't a good GM" and then follow it up with a list of things that make him a good GM. That's like someone asking me if I already ate lunch, me answering no, then telling them the list of things I ate for lunch.

Do better DH.

Dubas didn’t fail because Chuck is worse is one hell of an argument, especially considering they won the same number of playoff series.

Please, go ahead and quote where people said Dubas didn't fail because Chuck is worse. I'd love to read that.

 

[freakydallas13]

Former coaches, former GMs, former players.

Yeobastank got snatched up and became a key contributor in the ongoing Canucks fiasco.

 

[deadhead]

You see, context matters in all of those stances if you're attempting to be honest.

The context is Dubas couldn't get past the team that Torts blasted out of the playoffs.
CBJ outscored TB 19-8.

Now TB won the xGF battle 51.95% to 48.05%, not nearly as lopsided as Carolina over Florida 56.51% to 43.49%.
Bob did have a good PO series (not as good as this year, but his best until now).

Thing was, TB didn't assume it was just due to bad luck, running into a hot goalie.
That summer
traded JT Miller for a 2020 1st, 2019 3rd
signed Shattenkirk, Maroon, L Schenn as FAs summer of 2019
traded a 2020 1st, Foote for Coleman at the TDL
traded a 2020 1st for Goodrow and a 3rd TDL
signed Bogosian TDL

This was a continuation of a strategy that had commenced with the Cernak and McDonagh trades, building a big physical defense and an aggressive, physical bottom six.

 

[CutOnDime97]

The context is Dubas couldn't get past the team that Torts blasted out of the playoffs.
CBJ outscored TB 19-8.

Hang the banner

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

 

[Beef Invictus]

The context is Dubas couldn't get past the team that Torts blasted out of the playoffs.
CBJ outscored TB 19-8.

This is piss-poor even by your standards. The hockey discussion equivalent of defending a dude who abuses the handicapped.

 

[FlyerNutter]

The context is Dubas couldn't get past the team that Torts blasted out of the playoffs.
CBJ outscored TB 19-8.

Now TB won the xGF battle 51.95% to 48.05%, not nearly as lopsided as Carolina over Florida 56.51% to 43.49%.
Bob did have a good PO series (not as good as this year, but his best until now).

Thing was, TB didn't assume it was just due to bad luck, running into a hot goalie.
That summer
traded JT Miller for a 2020 1st, 2019 3rd
signed Shattenkirk, Maroon, L Schenn as FAs summer of 2019
traded a 2020 1st, Foote for Coleman at the TDL
traded a 2020 1st for Goodrow and a 3rd TDL
signed Bogosian TDL

This was a continuation of a strategy that had commenced with the Cernak and McDonagh trades, building a big physical defense and an aggressive, physical bottom six.

Can I ask for my own curiosity, since when have you been a fan of the Flyers?

 

[deadhead]

his team was arguably the best n the nhl. he made moves to try to win a cup. something a good GM does in that situation. black mark, come on.

If nt winning the cup = backfired then yes. otherwise no it didn't.

They weren't part of a cohesive strategy, same reason signing JT was a bad move.
Both teams needed to get tougher and stronger on defense, adding another offensive weapon didn't make them a better PO team.
Notice how often offensive oriented teams have big regular seasons (blowing out bad teams on a regular basis) but struggle in the playoffs?

Florida plays an aggressive offensive system that gives up a lot of scoring chances the other way, but they were a soft team last year, Giroux bless his heart, wasn't the solution, he was a luxury item for a team that didn't have a problem scoring. Chariot was just a bad move, Risto bad, had a horrible playoff and didn't play as well as Risto this year on a better team, CF 41.82%, xGF 42.39%. Overpay for a RHD.

Tkachuk was a good fit for Florida, but Zito's hands were tied due to the Cap, had to let Marchment walk, signed Eric and Marc Staal to the vet minimum, Cousins 2yr/$3M, Colin White $1.2M, got Mahura D and Lyon off waivers. While getting to the Finals was luck, keeping the team competitive was skill.

 

[Beef Invictus]

TB wasn't worried about "physicality" they were worried about ability to play hockey. They aren't a team that relies on grinding. They won Cups running the best transition attack I've ever seen.

 

[deadhead]

Can I ask for my own curiosity, since when have you been a fan of the Flyers?

Since about 1971 or so, husband of my mom's colleague had season tickets from the get go.
I remember the French Connection being kicked around, which lead to the "Broad Street Bullies" as a response to other teams' intimidation tactics.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Chiarot isn't a "Risto Bad" move because they gave up less and didn't extend him.

 

[blackjackmulligan]

They weren't part of a cohesive strategy, same reason signing JT was a bad move.
Both teams needed to get tougher and stronger on defense, adding another offensive weapon didn't make them a better PO team.
Notice how often offensive oriented teams have big regular seasons (blowing out bad teams on a regular basis) but struggle in the playoffs?

Florida plays an aggressive offensive system that gives up a lot of scoring chances the other way, but they were a soft team last year, Giroux bless his heart, wasn't the solution, he was a luxury item for a team that didn't have a problem scoring. Chariot was just a bad move, Risto bad, had a horrible playoff and didn't play as well as Risto this year on a better team, CF 41.82%, xGF 42.39%. Overpay for a RHD.

Tkachuk was a good fit for Florida, but Zito's hands were tied due to the Cap, had to let Marchment walk, signed Eric and Marc Staal to the vet minimum, Cousins 2yr/$3M, Colin White $1.2M, got Mahura D and Lyon off waivers. While getting to the Finals was luck, keeping the team competitive was skill.

they were not bad, turned out "bad" maybe as didnt win. He made moves to help his team. He did his job, why is that hard to accept.

Had he not made any moves would he have failed or would that be a black mark?

 

[Rebels57]