Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVII: What An Ugly Number

[Hollywood Cannon]

Iam so proud about #70 from our team! Look at that physical presence! I cant believe he is such a good player. Its like Prongeresque! He is unbelieveable good as a defender.... He will save our franchise!!!

Just an fyi, he’s #55 now.

 

[Rebels57]

When comparing players to each other basic context is required, otherwise it's a discussion of nostalgia, not on-ice ability.

1970's hockey and 2010's hockey are drastically different when it comes to overall quality of play, so achievements in the far inferior era should hold far less weight. I can't imagine how that can even be argued. Punishing a guy for not achieving as much when it was 1000x harder to do it doesn't make much sense if we're trying to be fair and accurate.

It's like comparing a CHL player who puts up 120 points to an NHL player who put up 80 in the same year. It's not stupid or immature to "devalue" the formers accomplishment because it's was objectively less difficult and as a result less impressive than what the NHLer did in a far more competitive league. You can still praise the CHLer for doing a good job and acknowledge that he was at the tippy top of his league when you're comparing him to his peers, but as soon as it becomes a comparison across leagues it's completely fair to account for the massive gap in competition.

This is nonsense devoid of the actual context you're claiming it contains... but I will just agree to disagree since you've had this opinion for a while and I don't do back and forth arguing on here anymore

 

[DancingPanther]

No offense but its a seriously shit opinion to devalue the abilities of pre-90's players.

All you can judge an athlete by is performance vs their peers. Its the one and only truly fair barometer without bringing in noise like nutrition, training, and equipment improvements.

Clarke is a 3×MVP and was a Top 10 player in the NHL for an entire decade. He would have also easily won multiple Selkes had the award been around earlier. Hes arguably a Top 10 two-way forward in the history of the league.

Again, its just immature and frankly stupid to devalue the achievements and abilities of older generations because the modern game is different.

No offense, but all but about 21 guys in Clarke's era absolutely sucked lol. You watch these games and it's like you're watching a college player play at his middle school alumni game every 4th shift, with 5 minutes of timbits in between. What an accomplishment

You think the Flyers are a chore to watch...try to watch 5 mins of a 1975 playoff OT and not thinking wow these slugs stink

 

[Striiker]

This is nonsense devoid of the actual context you're claiming it contains... but I will just agree to disagree since you've had this opinion for a while and I don't do back and forth arguing on here anymore

I dont agree to disagree. I disagree that you disagree with me, which means you agree with me.

Final answer. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

It’s an impossible discussion that is normally never discussed on the same level across all parties which makes the conversation impossible.

So many times we look at an athlete from the past and say the players are better today because of the advances in technology and training. We bring the player from the past and plop them into today as they were still in the past. Now doing the opposite we present the player from today in the past with those advancements still. Is that fair? No not really.

Of course the game from the 70’s wasn’t nearly as visually appealing but still compared to their peers they were that much better. Who is to say if they had todays advancements some of these guys wouldn’t eclipse the best from today?

 

[Beef Invictus]

What if I told you players from the 70s were able to keep up with players in the 80s while old, who were able to keep up with players in the 90s while old, and one of those old 90s players was able to successfully play last season.

 

[Striiker]

provorov still isn't a 1D in 1975

fight me

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

provorov still isn't a 1D in 1975

fight me

Bob Clarke would slit his throat for being a Russian.

 

[Striiker]

Bob Clarke would slit his throat for being a Russian.

I changed my mind

Clarke #1

 

[Beef Invictus]

It’s an impossible discussion that is normally never discussed on the same level across all parties which makes the conversation impossible.

So many times we look at an athlete from the past and say the players are better today because of the advances in technology and training. We bring the player from the past and plop them into today as they were still in the past. Now doing the opposite we present the player from today in the past with those advancements still. Is that fair? No not really.

Of course the game from the 70’s wasn’t nearly as visually appealing but still compared to their peers they were that much better. Who is to say if they had todays advancements some of these guys wouldn’t eclipse the best from today?

You mean like Jagr?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

provorov still isn't a 1D in 1975

fight me

I have nothing but admiration for this level of dedication to the bit.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

You mean like Jagr?

That’s Las Vegas Desert Duck Jaromir Jagr to you.

 

[Beef Invictus]

provorov still isn't a 1D in 1975

fight me

If we are giving him 1975 skates and stick and training no he is not.

Also he would probably be working in a potato mine.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That’s Las Vegas Desert Duck Jaromir Jagr to you.

Stop drafting players I'm going to mention

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Just an fyi, he’s #55 now.

he is shit, thats is what matters to me! He could wear 666 and he will still be SUCK at hockey!

 

[swami24]

The only reason Clarke's legacy as a captain isn't on par with Marcel Dionne is that he played with Parent, otherwise he'd be constantly ridiculed as a talented thug player who couldn't win anything and it would be constantly referenced as "hockey karma" winning out.

The captaincy is irrelevant.

I guess you never listened to any of the players from that Era talk about the team. They all said he, and his leadership, are what drove the team. Easy for anyone to discount the truth 50 years later, but still be wrong. What did G drive, but mediocrity?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Stop drafting players I'm going to mention

 

[Striiker]

I don't give a lizards dry ballsack about "if [dinosaur player] had modern training he could have been just as good".

I'm comparing what they were on the ice, not what they had the potential to be.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

I don't give a lizards dry ballsack about "if [dinosaur player] had modern training he could have been just as good".

I'm comparing what they were on the ice, not what they had the potential to be.

See, as I said then most of us aren’t having the same conversation.

 

[Striiker]

See, as I said then most of us aren’t having the same conversation.

I still win.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I guess you never listened to any of the players from that Era talk about the team. They all said he, and his leadership, are what drove the team. Easy for anyone to discount the truth 50 years later, but still be wrong. What did G drive, but mediocrity?

And players who played with Dionne have spent decades defending him as a great leader who had nothing to work with. The truth is that without Parent, Clarke doesn't win, and he's remembered as a choker. That is how hockey storytelling works, how it has always worked. It's why the worship of captaincy is a farce.

A brilliant example is how Yzerman was lambasted as a disgraceful captain when he had no support, and then suddenly became the greatest captain playing in the sport when he had support. Nothing about him as a leader changed. Just the team results due to higher quality.

Everyone shat on Lindros as a captain, but if Clarke were capable of building a complete team he'd be hailed as a Maximum Leadership Hero.

 

[Magua]

Having Dornhoefer above Giroux is like having Larry Bowa above Bryce Harper. The nostalgia just hits hard for the older gentlemen, sorry. I'm not here to shame; it was a transformative era to be a young fan.

Bill Barber was undoubtedly a Flyers great, but I'm supposed to believe a guy with a single 3rd place Hart vote in his career was objectively better than Giroux relative to his peers? He played on Cup winning teams that hold special little places and not the worst era of Flyers hockey, let's just say what we mean. Dornhoefer, MacLeish, Lonsberry as better than Giroux is straight jacket stuff. An assumed Hart caliber Clarke wouldn't have sniffed a conference finals subbing in for the Giroux-era Flyers, and that's not about the individuals. The debate is Giroux vs. Lindros as 2/3 forward, and it starts and ends there.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Having Dornhoefer above Giroux is like having Larry Bowa above Bryce Harper in a few years. The nostalgia just hits hard for the older gentlemen, sorry. I'm not here to shame; it was a transformative era to be a young fan.

Bill Barber was undoubtedly a Flyers great, but I'm supposed to believe a guy with a single 3rd place Hart vote in his career was objectively better than Giroux relative to his peers? He played on Cup winning teams that hold special little places and not the worst era of Flyers hockey, let's just say what we mean. Dornhoefer, MacLeish, Lonsberry as better than Giroux is straight jacket stuff. An assumed Hart caliber Clarke would have won jack shit subbing in for the Giroux-era Flyers, and that's not about the individuals. The debate is Giroux vs. Lindros as 2/3 forward, and it starts and ends there.

That’s Las Vegas Desert Duck Bill Barber to you.

 

[freakydallas13]

If Giroux and Lonsberry went into the corner to get a puck Ross Lonsberry would have had it. The same with Dorney. If MacLeish was on the ice he would have owned Giroux. Some of you guys have no idea how good the Flyers once were.
BTW, what did Giroux ever win while he was here? He was the best player in an era but it wasn’t a good period of time.

 

[DancingPanther]

provorov still isn't a 1D in 1975

fight me

Ghost wins 3 MVPs and the Selke in the 70s