Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXVII: What An Ugly Number

[Hollywood Cannon]

Because Chuck didn't agree means he is wrong. Got it.

Is it possible Chuck said not going to agree to an ext now though lets revisit in the summer?

When free agency started I would imagine Giroux felt slighted and never bothered to reach out to the Flyers. Probably same on the Flyers end .Goes back to what actually happened during the deadline period.

Yes, yes it does. Not getting good players and getting bad ones instead is bad and wrong.

Why don’t you quote facts? Instead it’s some made up bullshit with absolutely zero credibility. But ya some bozo on social media said it was fact so who cares if there was any evidence to support it.

Unless it comes from Giroux or his agent this is what happened it didn’t. Agents could be embellishing things to but no more than the teams do

So you’re going with the “medical records” defense. Gotcha.

ASF is a credentialed reporter, last time I checked. Is he the Bob McKenzie? No, he’s not but he’s not some “bozo on social media.” Technically speaking you’re being a bozo on social media saying it didn’t happen.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the smoke then that’s your prerogative because there’s certainly fire here.

 

[Flyerfan18]

Yes, yes it does. Not getting good players and getting bad ones instead is bad and wrong.

So you’re going with the “medical records” defense. Gotcha.

ASF is a credentialed reporter, last time I checked. Is he the Bob McKenzie? No, he’s not but he’s not some “bozo on social media.” Technically speaking you’re being a bozo on social media saying it didn’t happen.

If you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the smoke then that’s your prerogative because there’s certainly fire here.

Don’t read ASF. Has zero credibility. When you post stuff enough and throw enough darts one will eventually hit. He is the new and improved Eklund. Ya he has been right a few times out of a million or so.

 

[Magua]

Claude Giroux wouldn’t crack my top 15 forwards in Flyers history. Most of you whippersnappers wouldn’t know. There wasn’t the analytical devil back then.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

 

[Striiker]

Clarke is called #1 because of nostalgia and team achievements, not because he was actually the best player in team history.

Problem is his skill evaluations and scoring require that ultra-massive "relative to his era" asterisk because he didn't play in the same NHL as these more recent players. Playing in a comparatively weak era, against awful competition, is not a personal accomplishment that works in his favor during comparisons. If you plop prime Clarke in the modern NHL he's doing absolutely nothing.

Actual best is either Giroux or Lindros. Place either of them in the 70's and they're putting up Gretzky numbers.

 

[renberg]

....

Are you saying Ross Lonsberry and his career high of 55 points is better than Giroux?

If Giroux and Lonsberry went into the corner to get a puck Ross Lonsberry would have had it. The same with Dorney. If MacLeish was on the ice he would have owned Giroux. Some of you guys have no idea how good the Flyers once were.
BTW, what did Giroux ever win while he was here? He was the best player in an era but it wasn’t a good period of time.

 

[Striiker]

Like I said, those older player evaluations are all nostalgia and team achievements.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Dis gun b gud.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If you're one of the people who thinks the game has changed too much to compare eras, I would understand putting Giroux 2nd in the short shift era history of the franchise. Keenan changed everything on a leaguewide scale to a degree that it does make some sense to draw a hard line. It’s certainly better than whatever this is, at least.

I do think in general his 2017-18 isn't appreciated as much as it should have been. That might have been the best Skater season in franchise history. It also might not have been, but it's on the short list of reasonable answers.

 

[swami24]

Best player in team history, is a history discussion. Clarke is number one, period. 10x the captain that G was. G was here long and piled up franchise numbers, but in terms of who I would want on my top 2 lines, he might make it. But in terms of the top 5 skaters.... Clarke, lindros, Howe, Barber, propp then G.

 

[Striiker]

 

[GKJ]

Anaheim has acquired 2 defensemen now with sensible expiring contracts that they can flip at the deadline and the Flyers definitely could’ve brought in both with any kind of foresight, creativity, or ambition.

 

[kudymen]

Dis gun b gud.

And original

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Anaheim has acquired 2 defensemen now with sensible expiring contracts that they can flip at the deadline and the Flyers definitely could’ve brought in both with any kind of foresight, creativity, or ambition.

Great post. Great on topic post.

 

[Beef Invictus]

If Giroux and Lonsberry went into the corner to get a puck Ross Lonsberry would have had it. The same with Dorney. If MacLeish was on the ice he would have owned Giroux. Some of you guys have no idea how good the Flyers once were.
BTW, what did Giroux ever win while he was here? He was the best player in an era but it wasn’t a good period of time.

We talking the same Giroux that once held off an entire Bruins team to keep possession on the boards? Or are you thinking of the Claude Giroux who wrestled as Doink the Clown?

 

[DancingPanther]

Like I said, those older player evaluations are all nostalgia and team achievements.

SKating circles around dudes that couldn't skate while sliding the puck 70mph on the ice past a crouched (not butterflied) goalie, cross ice passes to wide open players when goalies didn't know how to slide across the crease yet, slapshots from outside the blue line going in...all tremendous abilities

Especially the defense. Hooking guys down to the ice would certainly stop a puck carrier

Lolllllll

 

[Beef Invictus]

Best player in team history, is a history discussion. Clarke is number one, period. 10x the captain that G was. G was here long and piled up franchise numbers, but in terms of who I would want on my top 2 lines, he might make it. But in terms of the top 5 skaters.... Clarke, lindros, Howe, Barber, propp then G.

The only reason Clarke's legacy as a captain isn't on par with Marcel Dionne is that he played with Parent, otherwise he'd be constantly ridiculed as a talented thug player who couldn't win anything and it would be constantly referenced as "hockey karma" winning out.

The captaincy is irrelevant.

 

[Rebels57]

This is going to get ugly. Unfortunately many of the followers on this site never saw some of the older guys play to know how good they were. You can see the games in You Tube but it lacks the atmosphere in which these guys rose to the occasion. Just for giggles, who is Giroux going to knock off of the LCB line? The MacLeish-Lonsberry-Dornhoefer, or the LOD trio? Not happening. He simply is the best Flyer of the last decade which is no dishonor but be careful where that gets put in the history of the club. Sadly, they won nothing.

I mean, hes 10× better than Lonsberry and Dorny lol

 

[Striiker]

We talking the same Giroux that once held off an entire Bruins team to keep possession on the boards? Or are you thinking of the Claude Giroux who wrestled as Doink the Clown?

Those weren’t real men. They were weak-ass post-2000 men.

Giroux outmuscled children while the BSBs played against titans.

SKating circles around dudes that couldn't skate while sliding the puck 70mph on the ice past a crouched (not butterflied) goalie, cross ice passes to wide open players when goalies didn't know how to slide across the crease yet, slapshots from outside the blue line going in...all tremendous abilities

Especially the defense. Hooking guys down to the ice would certainly stop a puck carrier

Lolllllll

Tell me this doesn’t look like a 2010 Flyers alumni game.

Tell me these guys are even remotely similar to the quality of player Lindros and Giroux played.

Tell me anyone on this ice could even be an AHLer in 2022.

A playoff game, by the way.

 

[Rebels57]

SKating circles around dudes that couldn't skate while sliding the puck 70mph on the ice past a crouched (not butterflied) goalie, cross ice passes to wide open players when goalies didn't know how to slide across the crease yet, slapshots from outside the blue line going in...all tremendous abilities

Especially the defense. Hooking guys down to the ice would certainly stop a puck carrier

Lolllllll

No offense but its a seriously shit opinion to devalue the abilities of pre-90's players.

All you can judge an athlete by is performance vs their peers. Its the one and only truly fair barometer without bringing in noise like nutrition, training, and equipment improvements.

Clarke is a 3×MVP and was a Top 10 player in the NHL for an entire decade. He would have also easily won multiple Selkes had the award been around earlier. Hes arguably a Top 10 two-way forward in the history of the league.

Again, its just immature and frankly stupid to devalue the achievements and abilities of older generations because the modern game is different.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I mean, hes 10× better than Lonsberry and Dorny lol

Yeah. You could have fun and stimulating debates about where he ranks among MacLeish, Barber, LeClair, Recchi, Lindros, Scumbag, and Howe...Lonsberry and Dornhoeffer shouldn't even be brought up. And I take Giroux over Leach in a heartbeat.

 

[Rebels57]

Yeah. You could have fun and stimulating debates about where he ranks among MacLeish, Barber, LeClair, Recchi, Lindros, Scumbag, and Howe...Lonsberry and Dornhoeffer shouldn't even be brought up. And I take Giroux over Leach in a heartbeat.

Yeah Giroux is without a doubt the 3rd best forward in Flyers history for me.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

The only reason Clarke's legacy as a captain isn't on par with Marcel Dionne is that he played with Parent, otherwise he'd be constantly ridiculed as a talented thug player who couldn't win anything and it would be constantly referenced as "hockey karma" winning out.

The captaincy is irrelevant.

That’s Las Vegas’ own Marcel Dionne to you.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

Being physical isn't enough to make up for being terrible at defending for a guy making $5m+ and playing 20 minutes a night. I would happy to have a guy like Zadorov being physical on the 3rd pairing.

Look at how easy it is for even a bad team to run circles around Risto's physicality.

Iam so proud about #70 from our team! Look at that physical presence! I cant believe he is such a good player. Its like Prongeresque! He is unbelieveable good as a defender.... He will save our franchise!!!

 

[Striiker]

When comparing players to each other basic context is required, otherwise it's a discussion of nostalgia, not on-ice ability.

1970's hockey and 2010's hockey are drastically different when it comes to overall quality of play, so achievements in the far inferior era should hold far less weight. I can't imagine how that can even be argued. Punishing a guy for not achieving as much when it was 1000x harder to do it doesn't make much sense if we're trying to be fair and accurate.

It's like comparing a CHL player who puts up 120 points to an NHL player who put up 80 in the same year. It's not stupid or immature to "devalue" the formers accomplishment because it's was objectively less difficult and as a result less impressive than what the NHLer did in a far more competitive league. You can still praise the CHLer for doing a good job and acknowledge that he was at the tippy top of his league when you're comparing him to his peers, but as soon as it becomes a comparison across leagues it's completely fair to account for the massive gap in competition.