Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LXXXV: Halfway to Christmas

[bennysflyers16]

Keep trying to polish the Cuck turd

Imagine defending the Murray deal ,,,

 

[deadhead]

Keep trying to polish the Cuck turd

Sakic traded a 1st and Timmins (top D prospect) for one season of Kuemper,
Then traded for Georgiev to replace Kuemper.
Gave up a 3rd and 5th and signed him to a 3yr/$10.2M extension.

Georgiev
2021-22: 33g -6.8 GSAE
2020-21: 19g -7.2 GSAE
2019-20: 34g -0.1 GSAE
2018-19: 33g -1.5 GSAE

The Goalie market is very different than the market for skaters.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

We really still don’t have a good Goalie metric. It feels nice and clean to say there are the top X guys and then everyone else, but then I remember how John Gibson was the only one everyone agreed was consistently good and he responded by immediately turning into a pumpkin.

If you’ve got to use something, I guess it’s a combination of Goals Saved Above Expected and High Danger…something? I think I’m still most sure Hellebuyck is good.

 

[Angry Hockey Dad]

It makes me sick to my stomach to think Chicago will probably get Bedard and rebuild back to being a perennial cup contender before we even begin a rebuild

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sakic traded a 1st and Timmins (top D prospect) for one season of Kuemper,
Then traded for Georgiev to replace Kuemper.
Gave up a 3rd and 5th and signed him to a 3yr/$10.2M extension.

Georgiev
2021-22: 33g -6.8 GSAE
2020-21: 19g -7.2 GSAE
2019-20: 34g -0.1 GSAE
2018-19: 33g -1.5 GSAE

The Goalie market is very different than the market for skaters.

So Fletcher and Sakic are the same, or what are we doing with this huge omission of context.

 

[bennysflyers16]

It makes me sick to my stomach to think Chicago will probably get Bedard and rebuild back to being a perennial cup contender before we even begin a rebuild

Plus they will have our Fla 1st when they trade for JVR.

 

[landsbergfan]

We really still don’t have a good Goalie metric. It feels nice and clean to say there are the top X guys and then everyone else, but then I remember how John Gibson was the only one everyone agreed was consistently good and he responded by immediately turning into a pumpkin.

If you’ve got to use something, I guess it’s a combination of Goals Saved Above Expected and High Danger…something? I think I’m still most sure Hellebuyck is good.

I think something that doesn't show up in most of the stats and what really separates good goalies and great goalies is consistency. There are countless examples of goalies putting up fantastic stats for short periods of time, and I am sure there are multiple reasons why a guy is capable of that, but when you have a goalie that can consistently play above average year over year it is a skill that becomes worth something. I guess one of the issues is that by the team you figure that out these guys get to an age where the contract is hardly worth it. Timing is everything with guaranteed contracts, so a goalie contract that is worth it is relative.

 

[Angry Hockey Dad]

Plus they will have our Fla 1st when they trade for JVR.

Turning Giroux into a 1 for 1 trade for Tippett

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Don’t get how he gives Letang that horrid deal but let’s Shrek walk ? Hard ball with both was the right call.

Hope Malkin signs with Canes and they pump the Pens.

It makes sense if they replace Malkin, IMO.

Also I'd rather pay Letang than Malkin anyway. I think Letang's contract is a sweetheart AAV, but 3 years too many (which can be LTIR'd probably - so meh I don't think it's so bad). Pens will be bad after Sid retires anyway probably, so why not go for it again now ::

BUT if the Pens leave this offseason with Sid-Carter as their 1-2 centers, then I agree they messed up (though Malkin is hurt so much, it almost never was Sid-Geno the last 2 years anyway).

Edit: Just saw the Rakell contract. Hexy f***ed up.

 

[deadhead]

The other thing with goalies is coming up big in the playoffs.
Hart outdueling Price at 21 will buy him a lot of patience with the Flyers, because a goalie who can rise to the occasion in the playoffs is priceless.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I think something that doesn't show up in most of the stats and what really separates good goalies and great goalies is consistency. There are countless examples of goalies putting up fantastic stats for short periods of time, and I am sure there are multiple reasons why a guy is capable of that, but when you have a goalie that can consistently play above average year over year it is a skill that becomes worth something. I guess one of the issues is that by the team you figure that out these guys get to an age where the contract is hardly worth it. Timing is everything with guaranteed contracts, so a goalie contract that is worth it is relative.

This was the pro-Gibson argument. Everyone else had a down year thrown in here and there.

For the record, I agreed with you. Now I’m back to shoulder shrugs.

 

[landsbergfan]

This was the pro-Gibson argument. Everyone else had a down year thrown in here and there.

For the record, I agreed with you. Now I’m back to shoulder shrugs.

It is also a great lesson that goalies are f***ing weird and it's almost never a good idea to sign one with term.

It really is a fantastic position (I play it). Sakic got fleeced for Kuemper after letting Grubauer walk and ended up winning the cup as a result. It can screw a team over in so many ways. You're just as likely to end up getting screwed by a big contract as you are saved by some rookie on an ELC. There really doesn't seem to be some magic formula besides "have some options"

Imagine defending the Murray deal ,,,

 

[GKJ]

The other thing with goalies is coming up big in the playoffs.
Hart outdueling Price at 21 will buy him a lot of patience with the Flyers, because a goalie who can rise to the occasion in the playoffs is priceless.

Yes, the Flyers have a long history of committing to goaltenders.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Didn’t even realize Washington has no goalies after trading Vanecek at the draft & now not QOing Samsonov today.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

We really still don’t have a good Goalie metric. It feels nice and clean to say there are the top X guys and then everyone else, but then I remember how John Gibson was the only one everyone agreed was consistently good and he responded by immediately turning into a pumpkin.

If you’ve got to use something, I guess it’s a combination of Goals Saved Above Expected and High Danger…something? I think I’m still most sure Hellebuyck is good.

Transition and clear path save percentage, too.

Goalies are hard, but the ones who can stop more pucks that are clear looks at the net tend to be the most reliable. Problem is, there's year over year consistency issues with this evaluation, too.

****

I love coming home from an evening out and seeing GMs not named Chuck Fletcher make astoundingly risky and/or astoundingly stupid moves. If only Fletcher wasn't going one for one with the rest of the league...

 

[landsbergfan]

Didn’t even realize Washington has no goalies after trading Vanecek at the draft & now not QOing Samsonov today.

Rumored to be the favorites for Kuemper

 

[Beef Invictus]

Didn’t even realize Washington has no goalies after trading Vanecek at the draft & now not QOing Samsonov today.

I believe the youths call this "Doing The YOLO"

 

[flyerslducks]

I still believe Gibson is a great goalie. Think he’s very underrated and a shit team definitely hasn’t helped.

 

[landsbergfan]

I believe the youths call this "Doing The YOLO"

 

[GapToothedWonder]

I think the reality is you'll never be able to quantify a position (goalie) that is both so dependent on both a persons mental state, the defence in front of them and luck.

A string of games where pucks get tipped in unstoppable ways, or a few games full of defensive breakdowns and suddenly ou are in a slump and pressing and it effects your game.

Or a couple pucks through traffic hir somebody in the ass or hit a post and don't go in when you didn't have it. Suddenly you are on a high and playing loose and everything seems easy.

Plus I think if you play on a bad defensive team that is constantly getting hemmed and giving up grade A chances, it's just going to mentally wear you out over the course of a season.

I don't know hoe you could ever account for most of that in a way that would help you predict for future success.

 

[BernieParent]

Turning Giroux into a 1 for 1 trade for Tippett

Wrong. Fletcher also sent Rubtsov and Bunnaman to Florida.

Yes, the Flyers have a long history of committing to goaltenders.

Sorry, this screamed to be fixed.

 

[ellja3]

It makes me sick to my stomach to think Chicago will probably get Bedard and rebuild back to being a perennial cup contender before we even begin a rebuild

New Jersey Devils also. What a timeline we live in.

 

[ellja3]

I think the reality is you'll never be able to quantify a position (goalie) that is both so dependent on both a persons mental state, the defence in front of them and luck.

A string of games where pucks get tipped in unstoppable ways, or a few games full of defensive breakdowns and suddenly ou are in a slump and pressing and it effects your game.

Or a couple pucks through traffic hir somebody in the ass or hit a post and don't go in when you didn't have it. Suddenly you are on a high and playing loose and everything seems easy.

Plus I think if you play on a bad defensive team that is constantly getting hemmed and giving up grade A chances, it's just going to mentally wear you out over the course of a season.

I don't know hoe you could ever account for most of that in a way that would help you predict for future success.

You are digging really deep and I essentially agree with everything you wrote; but it starts even with simple stuff such as classifying how dangerous the shots are. Ovi's slap shot from ''his territory'' being quantified the same as Hagg's salami-whip from same spot that's about to go 5 kilometers wide. Correct me if I am wrong, of course.

 

[Curufinwe]

• Monday, July 11, 5 p.m. ET: Qualifying offers due to RFAs
• Tuesday, July 12: RFAs can be contacted for offer sheet discussion
• Tuesday, July 12, 5 p.m. ET: First buyout window closes
• Tuesday, July 12, 11:59 p.m. ET: UFAs lose ability to re-sign for eight years
• Wednesday, July 13, 12 p.m. ET: UFA/RFA signing period opens.

 

[Flyerfan18]

It makes me sick to my stomach to think Chicago will probably get Bedard and rebuild back to being a perennial cup contender before we even begin a rebuild

Chicago can get Bedard, won’t matter The tear down they have started ensures they become the next Sabres or Coyotes. An irrelevant franchise for at least a decade